bjax Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Right now about 30 teams are viable in the Team State series, according to Bobby Cox. With two classes, about 50 teams would be viable - not enough to make Team State worth doing. Imagine how disappointed all those small schools would be when they discover they can't hack it even in a classed environment. Yeah, but that doesn't mean it would be the same 50 schools every year. 50 schools at any given time having a shot to make it to team state seems reasonable to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gstemv81 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 It would be pretty much the same 50 schools every year. The small class finals would be MD versus Yorktown every year, after they get done blowing away everyone in their watered down path to State. We would just have a new set of dominant teams every year. Team State is worth doing on its own merits. Class proponents are defining success as winning some type of classed team state championship when they should be looking for other definitions. Like winning their conference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 AJ, I would LOVE to know your inside source that Team State is gone. Do you have documentation from Bobby Cox today stating Team State is done? Didn't think so...your guess is no better than the rest of us... Did a large portion of the crowd leave before the finals? Yes...that is not shocking...8 teams started the day with a chance to win the state title. By the last round only two teams were left. Of course, most of the fans and families from the other six teams left...their teams were done...every other state I am aware of with a team state has the same result. Do not dimish the fact that a HUGE crowd was at the Team State finals to watch a great day of wrestling. Snyder No, I dont have an inside source. And really, did you just ask if I had documentation from Bobby Cox... come on.... and yes, my guess is no better than the rest, including YOURS!!!! My comment about attendance sais "disheartning"..... Considering all the talk on this board about saving team state by going and supporting team state, then we have a half full/empty gym for the finals.... Yes, that is disheartning... And your point about their team was out so they left maybe goes to one of the problems of team state. How many casual fans go and watch, or do they just go and watch their team and leave. It does not seem as if the team series has permeated into the wrestling culture, and no i have no letters from anybody stating this, just a valid observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjax Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 It would be pretty much the same 50 schools every year. The small class finals would be MD versus Yorktown every year, after they get done blowing away everyone in their watered down path to State. We would just have a new set of dominant teams every year. Team State is worth doing on its own merits. Class proponents are defining success as winning some type of classed team state championship when they should be looking for other definitions. Like winning their conference. I do not agree with that at all. Things do change. For example, just look at the region (just because I am familiar with that part of the state). Portage used to be dominant, but before that (which was before team state) it was pretty competitive between teams like Hobart, Chesterton, Valparaiso, Crown Point, Merrillville, etc. Then Portage became dominant. I am sure some people never thought they would see the day when Portage is blanked multiple times in a season. After Portage, you have a dogfight between Merrillville and Crown Point, with teams like Munster, Hanover Central, Hobart, Lowell and Lake Central right there. Then Crown Point becomes dominant. But who knows how long this will last. My guess is another dominant team will emerge in the in the near future. Not trying to get into a debate on who that will be (that can be a topic for a different thread); the point is, things do change. The region is an example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingMan Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 I too would like to see Team State continue...but what can we as individuals do to plead our case to the IHSAA? Seriously, can individuals petition them to continue this venue? I don't believe that any of the wrestlers who competed yesterday cared how big their competition's enrollment was, they wanted to be there as a team and that is what makes that tournament so great. The little guys can wrestle the big guys...we came from a school that ended their year with 2 kids on the varsity wrestling team. Believe it or not, there are so many wrestlers out there who never have known what it is to be a part of a 14-man wrestling team. That is something that many take for granted and we should not. What makes wrestling so great is that there are individual opportunities as well as team opportunities, both opportunities help form our young wrestlers and develop them to be great young adults in the real world as they understand the value of being the best individual they can be but also understand the value of being a team (in a department, business or work group). These are truly valuable lessons, and this sport truly represents the real-world, at least in my opinion. I have heard Mr. Cox isn't too receptive to input, but surely there is some action that could those of us who believe in the Team State tournament could take to plead our case. What if a coach's consortium was created to represent this case? I guess I just don't believe in lost causes if we don't fight for what we believe. Because if we don't fight, then we can't complain if/when it goes away. For those of you who think Team State is in the past, that's fine and I am not going to bust anyone's chops. But for those of us who believe in it we should fight to keep it alive. If anyone believes that a consortium of coaches could be effective to fight this potential change, please respond. We can post a new topic for those of use willing to fight this, but there could be no hiding behind user names, we would need to identify ourselves, coordinate and pull together one message to send up to the IHSAA. Failure to fight this only means we all agree to the change without representation. And if we don't get the point across and lose the battle we would know we battled, and the wrestler's deserve that and it is the least we could do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gstemv81 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 bjax, Regional powers may change gradually over time, or maybe not. In southwest Indiana it's been MD, Reitz and Castle for as long as I can remember. In the Region things are changing because of coaching changes, right? Best example: Maldonaldo at Merrillville. If coaching is what matters, then there's less argument for classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin2win1 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Well, if we do away with events because they do not effect enough teams. Lets first get rid of girls swimming state. Then we can just axe out 5 A football state along with wrestling team state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth34 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Well, if we do away with events because they do not effect enough teams. Lets first get rid of girls swimming state. Then we can just axe out 5 A football state along with wrestling team state. Football makes money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjax Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 bjax, Regional powers may change gradually over time, or maybe not. In southwest Indiana it's been MD, Reitz and Castle for as long as I can remember. In the Region things are changing because of coaching changes, right? Best example: Maldonaldo at Merrillville. If coaching is what matters, then there's less argument for classes. It doesn't matter why the changes happen, it just matters that they do happen. My point was to say that yeah, there might only be 50 viable team state teams in a given year under a class system, but they won't necessarily be the same 50 teams every year, so it's ok. I'd rather not get into specific teams because that could cause an unnecessary digression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 It would be pretty much the same 50 schools every year. The small class finals would be MD versus Yorktown every year, after they get done blowing away everyone in their watered down path to State. We would just have a new set of dominant teams every year. Team State is worth doing on its own merits. Class proponents are defining success as winning some type of classed team state championship when they should be looking for other definitions. Like winning their conference. If it was broken down into three classes there would be a lot of parity in the first class. 2a would also have teams like Belmont and New Pal. I think trhat classing it would effect a lot more teams than you would think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammer Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 No, I dont have an inside source. And really, did you just ask if I had documentation from Bobby Cox... come on.... and yes, my guess is no better than the rest, including YOURS!!!! My comment about attendance sais "disheartning"..... Considering all the talk on this board about saving team state by going and supporting team state, then we have a half full/empty gym for the finals.... Yes, that is disheartning... And your point about their team was out so they left maybe goes to one of the problems of team state. How many casual fans go and watch, or do they just go and watch their team and leave. It does not seem as if the team series has permeated into the wrestling culture, and no i have no letters from anybody stating this, just a valid observation. I'm not sure where the relevancy is with half the crowd leaving by the championship match. Isn't the almighty dollar what the IHSAA really cares about? Under that thinking, if everyone buys a ticket to fill the stands for the first round, the IHSAA still brings in the same gate, regardless of when they leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammer Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 If it was broken down into three classes there would be a lot of parody in the first class. 2a would also have teams like Belmont and New Pal. I think trhat classing it would effect a lot more teams than you would think. I think the word you meant is parity. Parody would insinuate that the first class was spoofing the other classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Right now about 30 teams are viable in the Team State series, according to Bobby Cox. Strange Mr. Cox that about that same number you would expect to see from any other sport. Some school have just developed perennial powerhouses that will be in the hunt to make the finals. A few other programs are able to developing a few years of solid team and make it there. Other school just haven't found a way to develop the team or the individuals to the point needed to compete. This usually goes in a 10-15 year cycle with a few teams moving up a level or down the levels mentioned. By that logic we may as well eliminate handing out a team championship trophy for every individual and most team sports we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrestling guru Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 AJ, you are clearly trying to stir the pot right now.. and clearly dont want team state for what ever reason. In football state does 1A fans stay and watch 2A?? No when your team is done your done, and for the casual fan.. yes i drove about 2 hours in the morning and then left at night 2 hours back...Here is a little info, Indian Creak took second for coaches trophy (or state runner up) in the old way, and they wern't even close to winning there sectional.... no disrespect to indian creak!!!! (Great job by the way).. ... but for real getting on and saying stuff of thsat nature is uncalled for. I also feel classed team state may put a little drive in some of the coaches out there just collecting a pay cheack to make forth some effort to get a team title... but it cant be classed if we dont have it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runner-up Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 I can't see how the IHSAA can even think about getting rid of Team State. While wrestling is an idividual sport, it is also a team sport. There are teams who simply feed off of each other in a dual situation and I think that this is an important part of wrestling at the high school level. Look at all that great wrestling that took place yesterday that never would have happened if we didn't have a Team State! If high school sports are about enriching the lives of our atheltes, letting the individuals on these teams have this experence is crutial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GloryDays66 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 I haven't made every team state dual meet, but I have not missed to many either, I can say this though from a team stand point, it doesn't get anymore exciting than watching 8 teams go after 1 title. The old format you never had to win a dual meet to win a team title. I would love for someone to shut team state down, and THEN go personally go tell PM, LN, MD, CP, Penn, Yorktown, Bellmont, the Cavemen, Franklin Comm. along with every school with a wrestling team, they were NOT actually wrestling for a STATE TITLE but only to raise money for the IHSAA. We wrestle to get our hands raised, we wrestle for the GLORY! not for the money.. If this was a money issue what is your actual overhead? You need use of a gym, use of a four mats, 8 ref's, and a solid group of volunteers (CC has done a great job with this every year, I must say), medals and trophies that are given to every State Championship and runner-up teams, a couple troopers, have some tickets printed up, make up some programs... doesn't sound like much to me considering your selling $10 tickets (well worth it if you never been)... Schools across the nation put on dual meet tournaments every year do they lose money? Long Live the right for ALL the wrestlers on 1 team to show the True Champion!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 I'm not sure where the relevancy is with half the crowd leaving by the championship match. Isn't the almighty dollar what the IHSAA really cares about? Under that thinking, if everyone buys a ticket to fill the stands for the first round, the IHSAA still brings in the same gate, regardless of when they leave. the relevance is that people keep talking about how wrestling is percieved.. we have had numerous discussions about dress and behavior because of how it portrays wrestling to Bobby Cox and school administrators... show having a state final in a half empty gym is a huge perception that we only care about our team and not wrestling when it comes to the team series... i am pretty sure that at the individual series there were a lot of people there that did not have a member of their high school team in the finals....i dont recall there being a half empty gym during the hw finals... concerning the money issue, i agree that it doesnt matter when they leave if they paid.. i pointed out in another thread how they stopped charging by the time i got there in the second round.. many people were late getting there.. if the IHSAA was concerned solely by money they would have had tickets for the final session or would have still been selling tickets in the second round... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 AJ, you are clearly trying to stir the pot right now.. and clearly dont want team state for what ever reason. In football state does 1A fans stay and watch 2A?? No when your team is done your done, and for the casual fan.. yes i drove about 2 hours in the morning and then left at night 2 hours back...Here is a little info, Indian Creak took second for coaches trophy (or state runner up) in the old way, and they wern't even close to winning there sectional.... no disrespect to indian creak!!!! (Great job by the way).. ... but for real getting on and saying stuff of thsat nature is uncalled for. I also feel classed team state may put a little drive in some of the coaches out there just collecting a pay cheack to make forth some effort to get a team title... but it cant be classed if we dont have it... not sure how i am stirring the pot... just making my statements and giving my opinions like other people... i wasnt aware that there was some company line that i was suppose to be following..... and comparing classed football state to wrestling team state is apples and oranges... all the teams are not in one pool competing against each other... and football was not on a discussion board encouragin people to help save team state... for the record, I am opposed to the current team format and i am opposed to a classes team state... if they are going to continue it i would love to see it be a dual tournament from the beginning rather than starting it with tournament scoring... i drove over 90 minutes, both ways, to enjoy team state and support team state.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gstemv81 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 If AJ is opposed to the current team format and opposed to a classed team state, then what is he for? I just don't want to go back to the old format the individual tournament determines team championships based on three studs. Why lose an event? No team state=less wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjax Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Very few people would say team state is perfect as is. But you cannot fix it if they eliminate it. I can't understand why anyone would want to see it go away. No one has even attempted to say how they think that would help the sport. If we lose team state, wrestling as a whole in the state of indiana will be worse off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Very few people would say team state is perfect as is. But you cannot fix it if they eliminate it. I can't understand why anyone would want to see it go away. No one has even attempted to say how they think that would help the sport. If we lose team state, wrestling as a whole in the state of indiana will be worse off. I think plenty of people have said that by getting rid of the current flawed system, it would force coaches to come up with a better system that would potentially allow ALL schools to have a shot at a team state title as well as being profitable to the IHSAA. By keeping the current system, there is the distinct possibility that many schools and the IHSAA would not look to fix anything. If you support this line of thinking, eliminating the current system is crucial to 'fixing' the team dual state tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I think plenty of people have said that by getting rid of the current flawed system, it would force coaches to come up with a better system that would potentially allow ALL schools to have a shot at a team state title as well as being profitable to the IHSAA. By keeping the current system, there is the distinct possibility that many schools and the IHSAA would not look to fix anything. If you support this line of thinking, eliminating the current system is crucial to 'fixing' the team dual state tournament. When you say ALL teams have a "shot" does that mean a classed team tournament or something else? I feel that a three or four class tournamnet gives everyone a shot. Some feel even that would be unfair as certain teams will still dominate. No matter what not all teams will be able to win it all, some teams are better than others and it is impossible to stop that from happening, heck it would be unfair to our top teams if we would go back to the indivdual tournament deciding it. I get a laugh whenever I hear a coach bring up that the old system is more fair because you just need a few top guys to win it, that's a joke, that's not winning a team championship its winning a system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I think plenty of people have said that by getting rid of the current flawed system, it would force coaches to come up with a better system that would potentially allow ALL schools to have a shot at a team state title as well as being profitable to the IHSAA. By keeping the current system, there is the distinct possibility that many schools and the IHSAA would not look to fix anything. If you support this line of thinking, eliminating the current system is crucial to 'fixing' the team dual state tournament. Well if they remove team state we should have plenty of time over the next 15 years to come up with a better plan for it. It may take that long before the IHSAA can be convince to bringing back something they took away because some said it wasn't worth having. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 When you say ALL teams have a "shot" does that mean a classed team tournament or something else? I feel that a three or four class tournamnet gives everyone a shot. Some feel even that would be unfair as certain teams will still dominate. No matter what not all teams will be able to win it all, some teams are better than others and it is impossible to stop that from happening, heck it would be unfair to our top teams if we would go back to the indivdual tournament deciding it. I get a laugh whenever I hear a coach bring up that the old system is more fair because you just need a few top guys to win it, that's a joke, that's not winning a team championship its winning a system. I said a system that would potentially give all teams a shot. What this system will be is up to the coaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Well if they remove team state we should have plenty of time over the next 15 years to come up with a better plan for it. It may take that long before the IHSAA can be convince to bringing back something they took away because some said it wasn't worth having. 15 years. That might be generous. Just think....if Indian Creek would have won under the old system, we could have called it the Trafalger Triumph and a movie could have been made about them. And 50 years from now Trey Reese would be giving interviews about how dual meet tournaments championships ruined wrestling in Indiana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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