Jump to content
hammer

Class wrestling

Recommended Posts

Q: If you are so big on just one class, why not just have 3 weight classes, since 14 really doesn't give us an indication of a TRUE state champion?

 

A: I thought we were trying to get more participation not less...lol

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Q: If you are so big on just one class, why not just have 3 weight classes, since 14 really doesn't give us an indication of a TRUE state champion?

 

A: I thought we were trying to get more participation not less...lol

I thought you wanted a better view of who truly is the best wrestler in the state.... lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a question for those against multi classed individual tournaments:  why haven't our neighboring states learned from our greatness and went back to a single class system.  Why does PA, arguably the top wrestling state, have classes?  Is their version of this website have folks arguing against multi-class?  Same question for OH, IA, etc.

 

Our "neighboring states" also sell alcohol on Sundays and Indiana doesn't. Should we change to simply accomodate??? Just a question

 

And FYI....we should be selling on Sundays...lol stops me from driving to Michigan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bob you have coached for a long time.  I had a coach that coached back in the day too Randy Qualitza and the thing that I remember him telling me is that the only people the Ihsaa will listen to are the principals.  Has this been the approach.  I remember talking to my high school Principal  at Pioneer and he always said he would fight for class wrestling, and he even stated to me if class is what you want you have to get the principals leading the charge.  Back when I came to you and the meetings in Indy it was not taking seriously.  You say it was proposed but we voted for class not wrestle backs and class and you guys went in with both.  Then after they said no the officers decided it was wrestle backs that they wanted to push and put all the efforts in that area.  

 

You made a comment a few years back after several comments on one the topics on class wrestling.  You said the only reason the people wanted class wrestling was because all they cared about was themselves.  I took offense to that, and after that comment I never rejoined the association.  

 

I am sorry that you feel that class would not help the state of  Indiana. It is time for a change.  The status quo is over.  Something needs to give

 

 

EDIT: Maybe you didn't direct that comment to me but I did take it that way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought you wanted a better view of who truly is the best wrestler in the state.... lol

 

I am still riding the fence, but I did ask in all seriousness even though it sounds like me being a smartbutt "if 2 or 3 classes will help get participation up why wouldnt 6 do even more" if having a true champion doesnt matter, then we could go 6 to 8 classes then class it to freshman, sophmores, juniors and seniors.  That way you could be a class 6 sophmore champion.  Even a small team could have multiple state qualifiers and the communties could get excited.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am still riding the fence, but I did ask in all seriousness even though it sounds like me being a smartbutt "if 2 or 3 classes will help get participation up why wouldnt 6 do even more" if having a true champion doesnt matter, then we could go 6 to 8 classes then class it to freshman, sophmores, juniors and seniors.  That way you could be a class 6 sophmore champion.  Even a small team could have multiple state qualifiers and the communties could get excited. 

Because from doing research on the classed states they usually have anywhere between 120-160 schools in each class.  Two classes would put about 155ish schools in each class and they would stay competitive without making state a joke like it has been in Arizona where they have like six classes.  Going to two classes would still have numerous great state finals matchups in both divisions.

 

In Oregon they actually added classes fairly recently when they saw the growth at the small school level.  The same with Illinois who just a couple years ago added a third class. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What happened to my post?  Did I violate board rules?  It was I who pointed out that Arizona has six classes.  This is the direction these things go, and it never stops.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

good points..I am honestly listening and taking in what you are saying.  I havent had an situation where I could argue both sides to myself and win...lol

 

Why is the 6 classes in Arizona a joke?? has there been more or less participation? Is there a magic number? or is it for each state?

 

Heres whats burning in my head....First, I do think classing the whole thing probably would grow the sport, but what are we trying to grow to? Is this growth going to creat a boom that makes us as big as basketball? football? What other sport besides those two are bigger than wrestling as a whole? I am sure there are some just not sure what they are.  When it comes to strictly numbers, Indiana has to deal with a certain other sport that kids are taught from birth...basketball.  A great percentage of our youth is expected to play ball and is told so from birth.  So my point is, if you truly want to grow in numbers, classing might help a little...but lets find a way to grow the youth programs and this will grow the sport expenentially. Second, and this is why I at least respect the non classed indiv tourny...my senior year I was unfortunate enough to be in Levell and Moldonados weight class. I took third and because James was a junior, David and I went to Ill vs In dual.  I wrestled small school state champ and David wrestled big school champ.  The small school champ wouldnt have placed at the indiana state finals, at least that year.  That left a bad taste in my mouth, cuz that kid was like a 2 or 3 time state qualifier and probably had more and better opportunities to wrestle in college.   Did that make him better? no  but it did make me appreciate my third place medal even more.    I just noticed I argued both sides in that one paragraph. Pro= more college opportunities....Con= watered down lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some random ramblings

 

If you take the long view of things, increased participation at the high school level will at the very least stabilize the sport to the point where funding won't be cut and/or the administrations won't take it for granted.  Increased participation is more parents, more volunteers, more fundraising, more butts in the seats, more money, more active booster club, etc.  Some of this money can then be invested into the youth programs which is where you really need to get kids involved to sustain and grow participation.  Booster clubs often provide the backing for the youth/elementary programs.

 

Wrestling can give parents and kids something that basketball cannot give them.  Namely, an even playing field with very little politics.  There is no trying out to make a travel team at age 10.  Everyone has an equal chance to perform and work hard.

 

Wrestling allows kids to develop and grow into their bodies.  Late bloomers are not penalized as heavily as in other sports since we have the age and weight classes at the youth levels.

 

Wrestling keeps kids in all around shape better than almost every other sport.

 

I am not sure that most wrestling coaches take the marketing of their sport as seriously as they should.  It is such a great sport with so much to offer that I wish coaches would get that message out to kids and parents.

 

The only real drawback that I see to multiple classes is the whole "true champion" argument.  If class wrestling grows the sport, that argument becomes sort of moot.

 

I think multiple classes should not decrease the number of state qualifiers.  An plan to keep it the same with multiple classes would be best.  You get more people to Indy and really sell some tickets.  Not sure I have thought the logistics of all the matches and number of mats, etc., but think big for go home.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really think we might have bigger challenges blooming.  Recently this month I have officiated three duals where a school is being faced with pay to play---in some cases $200 a sport.  One school had no bus and kids has to get to the away match on their own.  In all three cases their numbers were 1/3 than what they normally would be.  Granted this is at the junior high level----but as kids are forced to choose their sport we might see numbers fall in many programs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is there any reason we can't class both individual and team state, and then add one more weekend where all the champs (or top two) from each class wrestle to decide THE champ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is there any reason we can't class both individual and team state, and then add one more weekend where all the champs (or top two) from each class wrestle to decide THE champ?

 

I wouldnt see a problem with that...I am sure there are some finacial or location issues that would be involved.  But it would be a nice way to make everyone happy and another chance to make money for the IHSAA.

 

Growing numbers with any program (in my opinion) is done from the ground up.  If you increase the numbers of the youth programs, the numbers will eventually grow in the Jr high and HS level.  I believe if the efforts are to increase numbers this is where the focus should be.  I am sure there is a way to satisfy class vs non class but these dreams would never be approved by the higher power.  Just like the example TrojanPride suggested...the season is extended for Ill vs In classic duals, so why not for Battle of Champions?

 

Whatever the decision is for team state (should we still or ever have it), as I stated before, should be moved to a different date. I think the clashing of individual and team hurts the participation level of the team state and will continue to do so whether its classed or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am just one coach.  But if you fail to class the individual tournament first, I am out.  Our team and high schools does not have the depth to compete in the team tourney.  I would be happy to support classing the team tourney, but only if the individual is classed first.

 

Otherwise, I think all the big school program coaches who ignored the class discussion for the last 10 years will go right back to focusing on the team tourney and the 95% of us who don't have those type of resources will just get ignored again.  That is why I am not going to the clinic on Friday night.  I don't care about saving Team State because Perry, Merrillville, Mishawaka, Ben Davis, Carmel, etc. could have cared less about those of us in the other 95% for the last 10 years.

 

Sorry, I don't mean to sound like 'eye for an eye' but I do hope some people are taught a lesson from this ordeal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Two quick thoughts.  

 

First why do you guys care about the reason that the big schools are now supporting a class team state?  If you both want the same thing, but possibly for different reasons then dont fight about it work together to get it.  It seems very childish to hope that the big schools learn a lesson by having us all lose team state.

 

Second If classing the individual side causes such great growth in the sport then why hasnt it grown over the last 20-30 years?  Les Gutches showed the info on how wrestling has not grown at all during that time period, and during that time period more and more states began classing.  Shouldn't the 40 other states that class wrestling have caused the participation to grow a great deal?  While during this same time period our tournament has continued to grow and expand, and I would argue produce more top level wrestlers.  So why hasn't classing the sport caused our participation to grow?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Our middle school feeds into a 5a school. It is a pay to  play, no buses, and the parents have to pay a rental fee on headgear and singlets. We have two of our home meets in the cafeteria because the basketball team have "dibs" on both of the gyms. Our numbers are down by about 50%. I know that is about the financial state of some school corporations, but if some type of changes aren't made, all schools, no matter what size are going to feel the effects. I try to tell kids at our school, if all of you were suppose to be basketball stars, there would be 2 million NBA teams. ;D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

good points..I am honestly listening and taking in what you are saying.  I havent had an situation where I could argue both sides to myself and win...lol

 

 

Heres whats burning in my head....First, I do think classing the whole thing probably would grow the sport, but what are we trying to grow to? Is this growth going to creat a boom that makes us as big as basketball? football? What other sport besides those two are bigger than wrestling as a whole? I am sure there are some just not sure what they are.  When it comes to strictly numbers, Indiana has to deal with a certain other sport that kids are taught from birth...basketball.  A great percentage of our youth is expected to play ball and is told so from birth.  So my point is, if you truly want to grow in numbers, classing might help a little...but lets find a way to grow the youth programs and this will grow the sport expenentially. Second, and this is why I at least respect the non classed indiv tourny...my senior year I was unfortunate enough to be in Levell and Moldonados weight class. I took third and because James was a junior, David and I went to Ill vs In dual.  I wrestled small school state champ and David wrestled big school champ.  The small school champ wouldnt have placed at the indiana state finals, at least that year.  That left a bad taste in my mouth, cuz that kid was like a 2 or 3 time state qualifier and probably had more and better opportunities to wrestle in college.   Did that make him better? no  but it did make me appreciate my third place medal even more.    I just noticed I argued both sides in that one paragraph. Pro= more college opportunities....Con= watered down lol

Where i grew up all the kids didnt spend evenings going to watch the wrestling meets.  They were spent going to the home basketball games to watch how good they were because they had won sectionsals the year before. My school was always just behind with the wrestling program and never had real big news on how good they were to help pull kids in.  With classing then smaller school will have the  chance to proceed further and recieve more recognition which will in turn catch the interest of the youth and encourage them to learn more about the sport that the "older kids" are good at.  Then hopefully more of the youths will join the local club to see what its all about and will help to boost numbers as they all get older and move into their high school program.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

class team state with 2 classes just like soccer.  if you win 2 in a row you move up to large class.

 

DO NOT EVER EVER EVER class individual.  every individual has the same shot of winning an individual title as long as he puts in the time and effort.

 

remember Tony Curry?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

class team state with 2 classes just like soccer.  if you win 2 in a row you move up to large class.

 

DO NOT EVER EVER EVER class individual.  every individual has the same shot of winning an individual title as long as he puts in the time and effort.

 

remember Tony Curry?

 

I've said it before, I've never met anyone from Ohio, Michigan, or Illinois who didn't like classed wrestling. It gets more people involved, builds more pride in small schools, and at the same time doesn't hurt the big schools. It also makes more money for the schools and the IHSAA. Besides the "I hate change" sentiment, I'm not sure what the argument against it is. Is there data to back up classing hurting participation and revenue?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.