TheeSnoopy Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 it should not matter what the fan thinks makes Indiana Special .. College coaches don't think its all that special. They recruit state champs. They recruit studs. We have had kids in Indiana if there were class wrestling that could have been 3x or 4x state champs that are losing to other kids that could be 3x or 4x state champs. To me this makes somewhat no sense yea it may look good to be a Louisiana 3x state champ(for example)which that state has classes, but put him on the mat with a kid from indiana who was a 1 time state qualifier and 2 time placer in Indiana and lets see who wins. My bet is on the Indiana kid! Sure it looks great but if you have talent a coach will recognize it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Not sure who you are reffering to that don't care?!?! I think the overwhelming majority I have talked to care about Team State. Now weather the IHSAA decides to listen to the coaches is another story. If people really cared they would have been pushing for this 5-10 years ago not right now when team state is on the brink of extinction. Good riddance to team state and all for our single class heros because in the end, we don't care about the sport, we only care about that beautiful sparkling spotlight on the finals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tskin Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Wow, So someone that has supported class wrestling is turning their back on the oppurtunity for it to happen just because it might not be both tourneys and people that didn't support it now have changed their mind because they feel it might be the right choice to save something everyone in the wrestling community wants to keep. Thats a shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammer Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 To me this makes somewhat no sense yea it may look good to be a Louisiana 3x state champ(for example)which that state has classes, but put him on the mat with a kid from indiana who was a 1 time state qualifier and 2 time placer in Indiana and lets see who wins. My bet is on the Indiana kid! Sure it looks great but if you have talent a coach will recognize it. The point is that when someone like John Smith gives his opinion on HS wrestling, the state of Indiana should listen. He is on record for saying that we hurt ourselves as a state by not classing wrestling, which in turn hurts the kids. Whether people want to argue whether class wrestling makes a wrestler better or not, you can't dispute the fact that a 2X state champ multi-class system will get more college attention that a 2X state placer in a one class system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phscoach Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Once bitten twice shy. Y2 beat the class wrestling drum for the last couple years and he got nowhere. Of course he's going to be all grinched out about people supporting it now. Seems a bit hypocritical to say it's sad to lose team state and then say good riddance, but it happens when people get frustrated. My attitude has changed about class wrestling has changed over the past couple of years I will admit. I enjoy our current state tournament from a fan's perspective. I think it is awesome. Anyone who doesn't at least enjoy the atmosphere on some level is lying to themselves for sure. But as a small school coach, it's hard sometimes to get our community behind the kids because they assume it's a lost cause having to wrestle schools with an enrollment 5 times the size of our school. They equate school size with advantage. Classing in either tournament format will give more schools the ability to generate excitement within their community about their program, adding exposure to fans and younger kids that will develop into tomorrow's starters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boot Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Once bitten twice shy. Y2 beat the class wrestling drum for the last couple years and he got nowhere. Of course he's going to be all grinched out about people supporting it now. Seems a bit hypocritical to say it's sad to lose team state and then say good riddance, but it happens when people get frustrated. My attitude has changed about class wrestling has changed over the past couple of years I will admit. I enjoy our current state tournament from a fan's perspective. I think it is awesome. Anyone who doesn't at least enjoy the atmosphere on some level is lying to themselves for sure. But as a small school coach, it's hard sometimes to get our community behind the kids because they assume it's a lost cause having to wrestle schools with an enrollment 5 times the size of our school. They equate school size with advantage. Classing in either tournament format will give more schools the ability to generate excitement within their community about their program, adding exposure to fans and younger kids that will develop into tomorrow's starters. I agree with this, go to Ohio and see how many small communities love wrestling. The more people you can get involved the better it is for the sport. If we have 2-3x as many people involved in state level competition that might encourage more people to go get involved in regional and national events outside of the regular season. It also gets more kids encouraged about wrestling in college and keeps the sport healthy. I just don't understand the arguments against classing that say it's better for the sport. What's a state that classed and it hurt the popularity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammer Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 I agree with this, go to Ohio and see how many small communities love wrestling. The more people you can get involved the better it is for the sport. If we have 2-3x as many people involved in state level competition that might encourage more people to go get involved in regional and national events outside of the regular season. It also gets more kids encouraged about wrestling in college and keeps the sport healthy. I just don't understand the arguments against classing that say it's better for the sport. What's a state that classed and it hurt the popularity? Good points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammer Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 Once bitten twice shy. Y2 beat the class wrestling drum for the last couple years and he got nowhere. Of course he's going to be all grinched out about people supporting it now. Seems a bit hypocritical to say it's sad to lose team state and then say good riddance, but it happens when people get frustrated. My attitude has changed about class wrestling has changed over the past couple of years I will admit. I enjoy our current state tournament from a fan's perspective. I think it is awesome. Anyone who doesn't at least enjoy the atmosphere on some level is lying to themselves for sure. But as a small school coach, it's hard sometimes to get our community behind the kids because they assume it's a lost cause having to wrestle schools with an enrollment 5 times the size of our school. They equate school size with advantage. Classing in either tournament format will give more schools the ability to generate excitement within their community about their program, adding exposure to fans and younger kids that will develop into tomorrow's starters. phscoach- I believe that Y2 is being sarcastic, but if I am incorrect, I am sure he'll set the record straight. You do bring up some goods points about how classing wrestling will help build depth of experience on teams. I coached at a midsized BB school. Kids were more interested in watching that team practice, based on the perceived success of that program, rather than be a part of our program, especially if it meant being a reserve on our team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils27 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 What if.... We never got to see Jason cook wrestle Jordan Hump in the finals? We never got to see Blake Maurer and Alex Dolly hammer it out? Jason Tsirtsis never got to redeem himself in the rubber match against Cashe' Quiroga in the finals? There are a million matches that may have never happened bc those wrestlers may have been in different classes. I don't care whether we have Team State or the Championship is won like in college. But, to change Indiana wrestling to be just like everyone else doesn't make it right. We haven't gone to classes and that because year in and year out the best HAVE to wrestle the best. Andrew Howe is from a small town and he would have been in the lower class. Do you think he would have been as good wrestling half the state? The answer is......yes because he's a friggin machine but we would have questioned how good he really was while in high school. Please don't go to a class system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils27 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 As you can see by my comment I thought everyone wanted a classed INDIVIDUAL system not team haha. I love wrestling! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tspray1 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Tsirtsis wrestled for Crown Point and Quiroga wrestled for LN. They still would have wrestled. Cook Valpo .. Hump LN. Same story above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Wow, So someone that has supported class wrestling is turning their back on the oppurtunity for it to happen just because it might not be both tourneys and people that didn't support it now have changed their mind because they feel it might be the right choice to save something everyone in the wrestling community wants to keep. Thats a shame. It is a shame that all these "new" class supporters want it for the wrong reasons. They think that the only way that we can save their precious team state is by classing it. They don't give a hoot that classing is good for the sport's growth. After team state is abolished these class "supporters" will go back into the woodwork. Not everyone wants to keep the current team state format. If we keep it as it is, all the "supporters" of class wrestling will go into hiding again because it will be saved. The coaches brought this on themselves because the people that have been beating the class wrestling drum saw this coming 5-15 years ago, but no one would listen. Now that all the haters are losing something they love so dearly they want to enlist in the class supporters help. Screw them and they got what they deserved, karma is fun isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Andrew Howe is from a small town and he would have been in the lower class. Do you think he would have been as good wrestling half the state? The answer is......yes because he's a friggin machine but we would have questioned how good he really was while in high school. So you really think that Andrew Howe got good because he wrestled in a one class system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clint Gard Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Indiana should have been working on classing the team state and the individual a long time ago. I wish I could go 8-10 years back and find the Tim Spray rants and a few of mine to remind people of all the arguments they were against...and now, all of the sudden, those same arguments sound pretty darn good. I said 10 years ago that a 2-3x state champ in a class system will be given scholly money before a 4x placer in our system. A lot of us said more kids would get involved and more communities would get involved in a class system and now, holy cow, those arguments hold water. It still burns my butt that when John Smith came to our coaches clinic and said it was ridiculous we didn't class our system, a lot of coaches turned their noses up and said just because John Smith said it doesn't make it right. Well, he was right then, and he still is. 2x Olympic Champ tells us how to make our system better and we refused to listen. He probably knew a little about building a program, but hey, nobody's gonna tell us how to do it. I swore I'd never talk about it again because I get all worked up at the myopic nature of our way of thinking but Y2 and Tim are right. Every year we talk about why Michigan, Illinois, Ohio, Iowa, etc, etc. out perform us or have more placers out at Fargo or blah, blah, blah and we refuse to recognize their systems. I'll turn it around on everyone who thinks class is bad...Just because the majorityof you think it is a bad idea, doesn't mean it is, in fact, a bad idea. What it really means is that the majority...in this case, are wrong and have been for quite some time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtv2112 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Based on the unscientific survey on this thread, the class supporters are in the majority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olemissHC Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Being a coach of a small school, I am all for classing the Team State but not the Individual tournament. There are a number of smaller schools that would benefit from having the Team tournament classed. It would indeed get the community involved more if they knew that their High School team had a chance at a State Championship. Yes, small schools will travel. The smaller communities will come together and support their team. 7 out of the 8 teams in this years Team state are 5a schools. If it were classed the smaller schools would still have a fighting chance at a State Title. As it is, it may never happen. It should be about the kids and classing the Team State would give the kids, that may not have a chance at an individual championship, another shot. The individual tournament is the most exciting thing we have. Back in my day it was the school that had the most make it to state usually won the team championship. I didn't mind that either, it was still exciting although it was usually Mater dei, Delta or Belmont. ;D.....Just my opinion. Btw, who do I talk to about this survey for IHSWCA members? I haven't received that and would like to vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 There are a number of smaller schools that would benefit from having the Team tournament classed. If a "number" of small schools would benefit from a classed team tournament, wouldn't a GREAT "number" benefit from an individual classed system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammer Posted February 11, 2011 Author Share Posted February 11, 2011 If a "number" of small schools would benefit from a classed team tournament, wouldn't a GREAT "number" benefit from an individual classed system? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olemissHC Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Maybe so, I just like the way the Individual Tourney is already. When a kid wins state, he is THE best in the state. I don't know, maybe classing that might be good also. I see both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 If a "number" of small schools would benefit from a classed team tournament, wouldn't a GREAT "number" benefit from an individual classed system? Some people support classing the team portion because they see it as an uneven matchup between big school teams and small school teams (similar to the reason why football has been classed for a long time - you need to have a lot of bodies to field a team), but don't support classing the individual tournament because they don't see it as an uneven matchup in the individual context when one person happens to be from a big school and the other happens to be from a small school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Maybe so, I just like the way the Individual Tourney is already. When a kid wins state, he is THE best in the state. I don't know, maybe classing that might be good also. I see both sides. I think we all like the one class individual tourney from a fans perspective. From a health of the sport perspective, nearly every other state has decided that classing is the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Some people support classing the team portion because they see it as an uneven matchup between big school teams and small school teams (similar to the reason why football has been classed for a long time - you need to have a lot of bodies to field a team), but don't support classing the individual tournament because they don't see it as an uneven matchup in the individual context when one person happens to be from a big school and the other happens to be from a small school. But the point being made was wouldn't it help the sport grow in these small schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navy80 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 The big schools LOVE to beat up on the little schools, why should we take this away from them and make them wrestle only the other big schools? The IHSWCA survey will not do any good when the biggest schools do not want or care about class wrestling therefore their numbers will skew the data the most. About 90% of the 1A coaches want classed team, while only 60% of the 3A coaches want it. as much as I do not want classed wrestling, I agree with you on this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I think we all like the one class individual tourney from a fans perspective. From a health of the sport perspective, nearly every other state has decided that classing is the way to go. I don't think it's just from the from the fans' perspective, but from the perspective of the individuals competing as well. At least that's the way it appears to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I don't think it's just from the from the fans' perspective, but from the perspective of the individuals competing as well. At least that's the way it appears to me. So do we listen to what the fans and the 15-18 year olds think is best or should we look at the issue from the overall health of the sport? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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