Y2CJ41 Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 Secrets Reading the Mount Vernon topic really set me off today. What is wrong with people knowing your line-up? Why are coaches still super secretive about something so simple like that? Coaches need to wake up and realize that information spreads like wildfire these days. You can only keep things like a line-up secret for so long. When you start wrestling meets, your competition gets to see your line-up. The only possible advantage is in your first meet, after that there is no advantage! People do not have to worry about Title IX or administrators taking this great sport from us, we are doing a fine job ourselves of destroying it. Something as stupid as a line-up being posted on the internet will prompt a coach to sign up for an account and basically yell at a fan for posting the information. We are the same people who complain about newspaper coverage, yet don't send in results to the newspaper. How is your newspaper going to know who is having a good season to write articles about if they don't have your results? It takes about 10 minutes after a dual to type up the results and send them in. Who cares if you have a good or bad night, send the results in. I still have newspaper clippings from 15 years ago stashed away no matter if I won or lost. At least for me it was neat to see my name in the newspaper, I highly doubt much has changed in 15 years in that department. My next rant is actually the "art" of posting results in the results section. My biggest pet peeve is posting a dual meet score and not including the individual results. Is this to protect your top secret line-up or is this out of sheer laziness? Don't the coaches teach hard work and NOT laziness...yet they promote it by being too lazy to spend 10 minutes typing up individual dual results. The worst are the ones that put the results but just put the team that won each weight class. Please save your time and just put the team score. Every time you do that it prompts someone to ask, "who was at 152?" Coaches and whoever else is posting their results, please take the time to do so accurately, sharing the information has not hurt anyone and really, kids like to see their name in print. End of rant, enjoy your day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoGutsNoGlory Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 Classic and agree 100%. Wahoo to you my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theckman Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 Rant all you want, there will be as many different opinions as there are people on the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted December 6, 2010 Author Share Posted December 6, 2010 Rant all you want, there will be as many different opinions as there are people on the board. This sport is struggling and not growing for a reason, it is because people fail to change the way they are doing things. If you want to continue doing things like they were done in the 1980's then the sport will start to be discontinued even more than it is now. Wrestling people are very resistant to change and any time something new is introduced rarely are they in favor of it over the "old way." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theckman Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 Your opinion and you're welcome to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mustang Fan Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 I have to say I agree with Y2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted December 6, 2010 Author Share Posted December 6, 2010 Your opinion and you're welcome to it. No it is a fact that wrestling has the worst retention rate of all sports. If we kept 25% of the kids that quit this sport we would probably be right up there with baseball and basketball. Instead sports like lacrosse and soccer are passing us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theckman Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 I believe you're spouting your opinion. That's MY opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 No it is a fact that wrestling has the worst retention rate of all sports. If we kept 25% of the kids that quit this sport we would probably be right up there with baseball and basketball. Instead sports like lacrosse and soccer are passing us. Exactly. When kids quit wrestling, it's in total anonymity. Tell me the last time a star quarterback or point guard suddenly quit the team. Almost never. His name is plastered everywhere and everyone is following his every move. He'll never quit. We should be mentioning kids' names and weights and accomplishments every moment possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted December 6, 2010 Author Share Posted December 6, 2010 I believe you're spouting your opinion. That's MY opinion. No that is pretty much a fact. It was presented by Les Gutches of USAW at the coaches clinic. He had a graph that showed wrestling actually had very little growth over the last 20 years and our retention rate is the reason for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theckman Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 No that is pretty much a fact. It was presented by Les Gutches of USAW at the coaches clinic. He had a graph that showed wrestling actually had very little growth over the last 20 years and our retention rate is the reason for it. Still my opinion that it's your opinion and I'm sticking to it. Harp on it as much as you want. I don't care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted December 6, 2010 Author Share Posted December 6, 2010 Still my opinion that it's your opinion and I'm sticking to it. Harp on it as much as you want. I don't care. I will try to get the information and post it. If you really think that wrestling's retention rate is good you need to get your head out of the sand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 No that is pretty much a fact. It was presented by Les Gutches of USAW at the coaches clinic. He had a graph that showed wrestling actually had very little growth over the last 20 years and our retention rate is the reason for it. Sure some of the retention is easy to understand. Wrestling is maybe the most physically diffucult sport to be involved in thus its not for everyone who give it a try. Wrestling is maybe the most mentally diffucult sports to be involved in and thus its not for everoyne who gives it a try. Wrestling is probably the sport which has the most effect on a normal high school kids eating habits thus its not for everoyne who gives it a try. But after that tetention rates are sometimes relative to each type of sport too. It hard to compare wrestling retention to sports that have tryouts. Sport that cut individuals have a habit of keeping the same people every year thus keeping their retention rate high. Wrestling on the other hand takes relitively everyone who wants to give it a shot and thus we are bound to loose people along the way who just don't want to continue the sport for various reasons. Its also hard to compare wrestling with many of the other sports who do not have try outs. Track, golf, swimming, cross country, etc. offer the oppertunity for several members of the team to compete at the same time in those events. And in some case multiple events to compete in. The more who compete the better chance of keeping them on the team. Wrestling on the other hands only allows for certain body types to compete in 14 spots. Then if we get lucky the other team may happen to have a someone close to your weight class so you can get a JV match. Its also hard to make a comparison with big name sports like basketball, baseball, volleyball and football. Not because of their star athletic status (though I'm sure that helps) but because they usually offer full on Freshman and JV games for their athletes on a regular basis. Where as many times in wrestling its pot luck if you are going to get a JV match against another kid during a meet or not. If kids are going to be working that hard, maintaining their weight, and giving up time for other activities they at least want o have oppertunities to compete even if its at a JV level. Another reason you ca't compare wrestling directly with thes sports is because they tend to be sports kids have learnded and partisicapted from the time they wre young. When a sport is more familiar to you then you tend to feel more comfortable at it during the first month of doing it in middle and high school. Where as in wrestling just learning the techniques are very foreign to many kids and this lends itself to many kids walking away becuase of the confusion infulved with learning something completely new to them. Sports like lacross, soccer, hockey, bowling, field-hockey etc. may be better for comparison but in many areas these are new sports so they do experiance some growth due to just now being available in some areas as a sport. Other sports are being added as woments sports t obalance out TitleIX and that also would add to the growth of those sports compared to wrestling who has lost teams due to this same situation. While this probably does not explain the entire study away, and yes wrestling retition is still an issue that needs to be wroked on reguardless, these factors do show certain aspects of the sports involved in the study do make them hard to compare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theckman Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 I will try to get the information and post it. If you really think that wrestling's retention rate is good you need to get your head out of the sand. Ah, and now start the personal attacks. Now I've got my head in the sand. Like Mark Twain said, "There are three types of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." I never said wrestling's rate of retaining competitors was good. But unless you know what reasons are for not sticking with something, just numbers can be made to fit most any theory you want. Post what you want. Once again, I don't care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boilergrappler Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 I somewhat agree with Y2 about posting teams lineups. Local teams still have guys go and watch others wrestle. I've been many times to the Turkey Classic just to see future opponents of my wrestlers. Posting lineups does very little to effect others preparation. Most coaches and wrestlers discuss what weight class they will wrestle before the real season competition starts. Coaches should worry about their wrestlers preparation and have them be ready against anyone that may become their wrestler's opponent. Coaches still have the strategy to move or "bump" guys around when wrestling duals. They also have their right still to keep their lineups from the public. But, they cannot control what the fans want to write concerning their team. It's still public information that can be posted for others to see. Coaches shouldn't worry about it so much. Any media or print promotion of the sport only helps more become involve. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theckman Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 Personally, I don't see anything wrong with posting lineups. However, I think it ought to be a coach's perogative to decide that, not someone elses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uc1051980 Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 Y2 , we finally have something that we can agree on . Wahoo for you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dullguy Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 Great points here Y2!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth34 Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 Are fans allowed to post results? What if they only the the dual meet score, not all of the individual wrestlers? Getting the individual scores is very nice, but I would rather see a team score, than nothing at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 First let me say I agree with Y2 that this is nonsense to intentionally keep this top secret. More silly gamesmanship ? On the other hand this can be a ...hit load of work sometimes when you are a two finger typer like me. Coaches need to assign this duty to the managers. I believe that in the NCAA the coaches are required to report statstics. Could be the same way in High School? You can not grow plants in the dark ! You will not grow this sport by hiding it so you can gain some mythical advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted December 6, 2010 Author Share Posted December 6, 2010 Are fans allowed to post results? What if they only the the dual meet score, not all of the individual wrestlers? Getting the individual scores is very nice, but I would rather see a team score, than nothing at all. Anyone can post results. Of course the team score is better than nothing, but at the same time even a few individual results is better than none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sb25 Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 This sport is struggling and not growing for a reason, it is because people fail to change the way they are doing things. If you want to continue doing things like they were done in the 1980's then the sport will start to be discontinued even more than it is now. Wrestling people are very resistant to change and any time something new is introduced rarely are they in favor of it over the "old way." I wish the Indy Star still did things the way they did in the 80's. They used to print individual scores for dual meets as well as placement matches for tournaments. It's unfortunate that this board is the most recognition wrestlers receive. However, I don't see where posting detailed results on this site will help the sport grow. It is nice for those of us who are die hard fans but I doubt there are too many casual fans checking out indianamat.com to see who won the 152lb match between Garrett and South Adams or any others for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuneFan Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 I also could care less about seeing the team scores unless it is between 2 teams that are highly ranked. I like to see the individual results to see how a ranked kid did, especially if he will meet one of our wrestlers in the tourney, whether it be in the sectionals, regionals, semi-state or state. I hate to see someone post sometnhing like: Crown Point 65 xxxxx school 10. I would like the individual match scores. I appreciate it and thank anyone that takes the time to post them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 However, I don't see where posting detailed results on this site will help the sport grow. It is nice for those of us who are die hard fans but I doubt there are too many casual fans checking out indianamat.com to see who won the 152lb match between Garrett and South Adams or any others for that matter. but information like that, and a lot of information like that, might help bring the casual fan to be something more than just a casual fan. Results spark interest because someone always knows someone who is in that weight class.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EIACwrestler Posted December 7, 2010 Share Posted December 7, 2010 I agree with Y2 on this. Why try to hide your lineup from other schools. You should have enough confidence in your wrestlers to believe that they can handle anything that the other teams throw at them. If you don't, maybe you should take a look at your own coaching skills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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