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MT. VERNON meet 12/4


MVwatcher

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As a fan, I love when teams post the line-ups.  Even though I know they will likely change, it's fun to look forward to potential match-ups and scenarios.   Anything we can do to promote the sport is a good thing.  

 

I watched Chambers at the Hill classic on Saturday and Hoehn at the MV 5-way.  This should be a great 130 lb. match-up.  When and where will they meet this year?  Did they wrestle each other last year?

 

 

 

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Like Coach Stevens said, they won't meet until the conference tournament.  Hoehn pinned a Jasper wrestler in the ticket round of the semi-state last year at 125 but I don't know if it was Chambers or not.

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There is all kinds of gamemenship in all kinds of sports.  There are many instances in all levels of sport when you don't want the opposition to know what your lineup is. 

 

SOme of you computer guys take yourselves WAY TOO SERIOUSLY.  You seem to think that because you run a website that wrestling people like you have God like perspectives on everything, down to calling a coach out on his hs career.

 

You whoever you are sound like a has been or a never was and need to seriously get off your high horse. 

 

If wrestling is to survive or thrive because of a website where a bunch of old timers or whoever the heck all of us are type on computers then our sport is not going to survive. 

 

This is stupid.  Wrestling is doomed if it is contingent on computer typers.

 

 

RankingsGuy im pretty sure is Bill Smith so he's not quite a has been or a never was.

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There is all kinds of gamemenship in all kinds of sports.  There are many instances in all levels of sport when you don't want the opposition to know what your lineup is.  

 

SOme of you computer guys take yourselves WAY TOO SERIOUSLY.  You seem to think that because you run a website that wrestling people like you have God like perspectives on everything, down to calling a coach out on his hs career.

 

You whoever you are sound like a has been or a never was and need to seriously get off your high horse.  

 

If wrestling is to survive or thrive because of a website where a bunch of old timers or whoever the heck all of us are type on computers then our sport is not going to survive.  

 

This is stupid.  Wrestling is doomed if it is contingent on computer typers.

In football the coaches personally trade tapes and they see exactly how the team looks before they play them.  I guess these wrestling coaches that want to hide their line-ups like they are nuclear launch codes are trying to rely on something other than their actual coaching to win them a dual meet.

 

Wrestling is doomed if we keep living in the 1980's way of thinking, plain and simple.  

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In football the coaches personally trade tapes and they see exactly how the team looks before they play them.  I guess these wrestling coaches that want to hide their line-ups like they are nuclear launch codes are trying to rely on something other than their actual coaching to win them a dual meet.

 

Wrestling is doomed if we keep living in the 1980's way of thinking, plain and simple.  

 

The first part of your post here is a fact.  The rest is, once again, your OPINION.  And, also once again, you're welcome to it.

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My goodness, they are high school wrestling team line ups, not a covert operation team to steal secrets from Russia, come on. Each weight class should have the teams best wrestler in that weight class. Individual records do not reflect team wins. My opinion is that team wins are for the coaches record. If you coach your kids well and the wrestler that wins the wrestle off for the weight class should be in that class.. There is more to sports, especially wrestling, than winning.

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Have you ever noticed that the same lineups are not on the field.  Often times, teams don't reveal injuries. You want coaches to gameplan against what they think you have and not necessarily what you do have.

 

You are the coach who is afraid of the big bad wolves so I don't take what you say about coaching that seriously.  What has changed about wrestling from the 80s till now?

Lots has changed in wrestling.  From the rules to the number of offseason events and quality of them. 

 

I know South Adams and Garrett both knew each other's lineup from the previous weekend and both tried to use it to manipulate their line-up to give their team the best chance to win their dual.  There was no secret to either team's previous line-up and they both shifted kids around to hopefully win a very important conference dual meet.

 

I am not afraid to post our line-up and believe in my coaching and more importantly my kids.

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All I'm saying Joe is then good that is fine.  If I was coaching, I don't think I would be super secretive about my lineup.  But, I certainly wouldn't care about who did and who didn't.  When I wrestled, our coach didn't want us to know much about the opponent either way. Good or bad.  We didn't really scout much because he taught an offensive philosophy.  This is a good way, but their are other good ways to coach as well.  I really like watching counter wrestlers as much as  the maulers.

 

I will agree withyo about the off season tournies.  There does seem to be more of that and that is good.  There seemed to be less specialization as well.  But I  don't think the sport is any more or less popular than back then.  It is we the people who love wrestling who perpetuate it.  It is not ever going to be widely popular like football or basketball.  That is not a problem to me. 

 

I do appreciate the site and the discussion, but come on.  I agree that hs wrestling lineups are  not launch codes but neither are they a right to anyone either.

 

I don't care who ranking guy is. Was Bill Smith was good?  I think I've heard of him, but I wasn't inthe state for a few years.  Did he win a couple of olympic championships or someting?  Do you think Smith or Belaglazov are calling out hs coaches for not giving out the lineups?

Knowing a line-up of a future opponent has helped us win numerous dual meets in the past few years.  It also helps us get our best wrestlers better matches to prepare them for the state series.  When a coach comes on here and rips a fan/kid/parent/whatever for posting their line-up it tells me that they have a problem with promotion of the sport for their team. 

 

John Smith is not shy about promoting his team or the sport.  He routinely lets FloWrestling in their room to film their practice sessions and do interviews with the coaches and wrestlers.  He is very much a big proponent of promoting the sport through the new streams such as the internet, facebook, twitter, etc.

 

 

 

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I have a job to do as RankingsGuy, plain and simple.. my job is to collect as much information as possible to make the rankings as accurate as possible.  When someone undermines my ability to do my job, I take it very seriously.  If you want to email me privately, thats one thing, but to altogether deny us information makes absolutely no sense to me.  People complain when the rankings are not as accurate as possible, yet we have some coaches who do whatever they can to make sure their kid stays out of the public eye.  You can't have it both ways.  Wrestling is a sport that already does not get enough publicity.  The rankings that I publish on this website are then published in newspapers and publications throughout the state, and I take great pride in the fact that they are one of the finest high school rankings in the entire country.  Wrestling grows through positive publicity, I am a firm believer in that.  If someone who is a casual wrestling fan reads in the paper that his local high school has a kid ranked in the state, maybe he takes his son to go watch a match, and maybe that little kid grows up to be the next Andrew Howe.  For a coach to publically attempt to undermine my ability to do my job is something that I will get angry about every single time, and something I will make no apologies for.  As Y2 said, the 1980's culture of "lets hide my lineup because it gives us the best chance to win" needs to be left in the past if wrestling is to succeed.  This is why I am a firm believer that high school coaches need to be former college wrestlers who know what it takes to have success at the high school level and to promote the sport.  This was why I noted the correlation between a regional qualifier high school coach and a very poor mindset when it comes to promoting wrestling.

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I watch Smith's videos with my 4 year old and we try to do some of the techniques.  I think it is great.  

 

I like the sites too.  But that has nothing to do with a coach deciding to do something.  It is none of our business if he doesn't want it to be.

 

If you have a kid who is 3 and 43 you might not want his record so public.  You also might want a good kid to fly under the radar.  I don't care.

 

All I am saying is that you guys should let the guy coach the way he sees fit.  I don't really know what MD does now, but I know they wouldn't reveal a thing a few years ago.  They've had some hs success.

You obviously haven't been around much, but over the past two years I can probably count maybe one or two kids that really flew under the radar.  We have many spies in all areas of the state that know who the good kids are and they are outed earlier and earlier each season.  That is why the rankings are extremely accurate.

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I have a job to do as RankingsGuy, plain and simple.. my job is to collect as much information as possible to make the rankings as accurate as possible.  When someone undermines my ability to do my job, I take it very seriously.  If you want to email me privately, thats one thing, but to altogether deny us information makes absolutely no sense to me.  People complain when the rankings are not as accurate as possible, yet we have some coaches who do whatever they can to make sure their kid stays out of the public eye.  You can't have it both ways.  Wrestling is a sport that already does not get enough publicity.  The rankings that I publish on this website are then published in newspapers and publications throughout the state, and I take great pride in the fact that they are one of the finest high school rankings in the entire country.  Wrestling grows through positive publicity, I am a firm believer in that.  If someone who is a casual wrestling fan reads in the paper that his local high school has a kid ranked in the state, maybe he takes his son to go watch a match, and maybe that little kid grows up to be the next Andrew Howe.  For a coach to publically attempt to undermine my ability to do my job is something that I will get angry about every single time, and something I will make no apologies for.  As Y2 said, the 1980's culture of "lets hide my lineup because it gives us the best chance to win" needs to be left in the past if wrestling is to succeed.  This is why I am a firm believer that high school coaches need to be former college wrestlers who know what it takes to have success at the high school level and to promote the sport.  This was why I noted the correlation between a regional qualifier high school coach and a very poor mindset when it comes to promoting wrestling.

To add to his rant, I had a national ranking guru come up to me two years ago at Fargo and thank me for having a great set of rankings on the site.  This can only be done with close to full participation from coaches and fans throughout the state sharing information on the best wrestlers in the state.

 

On top of that, college coaches all the time are looking to recruit wrestlers from all over the state.  I know I am asked by my coaching friends from other states about the best kids in Indiana and directly point them to the rankings.  If a coach/fan/parent/etc does not submit information on their best wrestlers they are also hindering their potential to be looked at for wrestling at the next level.

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"This is why I am a firm believer that high school coaches need to be former college wrestlers who know what it takes to have success at the high school level and to promote the sport.  This was why I noted the correlation between a regional qualifier high school coach and a very poor mindset when it comes to promoting wrestling."

 

So unless you were a college wrestler, you can't have success as a coach or know how to promote a sport, huh?  Wonder how Don Patton, who never even wrestled in high school, or Mike Goebel feel about that?  How many high school coaches in our state were college wrestlers?  I never was but still feel like I did ok with our teams.  I'm willing to bet more weren't than were.  

 

Your comment about Coach Stevens was personal, pointed, and totally unnecessary.  I lost a lot of respect for you when you made that comment.  Whether you agree with his point of view or not, that comment was out of line.  That is a very elitist, arrogant, and absurd statement.  I never made it out a sectional back in '74 but love the sport and promote it.  You'll never get me to agree with you on either of those points.

 

Ah, and the cool points keep  on declining.  Darn the bad luck......LOL

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"This is why I am a firm believer that high school coaches need to be former college wrestlers who know what it takes to have success at the high school level and to promote the sport.  This was why I noted the correlation between a regional qualifier high school coach and a very poor mindset when it comes to promoting wrestling."

 

So unless you were a college wrestler, you can't have success as a coach or know how to promote a sport, huh?  Wonder how Don Patton, who never even wrestled in high school, or Mike Goebel feel about that?  How many high school coaches in our state were college wrestlers?  I never was but still feel like I did ok with our teams.  I'm willing to be more weren't than were.  

 

Your comment about Coach Stevens was personal, pointed, and totally unnecessary.  I lost a lot of respect for you when you made that comment.  Whether you agree with his point of view or not, that comment was out of line.  That is a very elitist, arrogant, and absurd statement.  I never made it out a sectional back in '74 but love the sport and promote it.  You'll never get me to agree with you on either of those points.

 

Times have changed, guy.  Your Don Patton reference shows that you are stuck in the 1970's, which was a timeframe in which most high school coaches never wrestled.  They taught wrestling out of a book!  Look at the team that ended Mater Dei's run.. Portage, coached by a Purdue wrestler Ed Pendoski.  How about the team that ended their run, Lawrence North, coached by an Olympic level coach Jim Humphrey and Purdue wrestler Jared Williams.  Crown Point came to be good thru their kids program coached by.. you guessed it, a division 1 wrestler Bill Hawkins.  How about Warren's resurgence under Minnesota Gopher Danny Williams, or Roncalli's resurgence under Lance Ellis, or Perry's team coached by UIndy wrestler Jim Tonte, or today's Mater Dei team coached by IU's Greg Schaeffer, or Mishawaka's coaching staff with multiple guys with college experience, or Penn's resurgence under Purdue grad Brad Harper, or Munster's resurgence under Northwestern's Robert Maldonado..  This isn't the 1970's anymore where you can put together a good team with a regional qualifier and the gym teacher for a coach

 

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Nope, not stuck in the 70's.....just stating a fact.  You CAN have success in wrestling without being a college wrestler.  Your blanket statement covered all eras, so did my comment.  Former collegiate wrestlers definitely have an edge in the technique dept.  And if you'd have qualified your statement to cover current times, it might have some credence, but not the way you made it.  Not every college wrestler makes a good coach, and not every good coach was a college wrestler.  Don't try to backtrack and qualify your statement now.  Your post manages to name 10 very good  programs that are coached by former collegiate wrestlers.  That's not a very high percentage.  There are plenty of good programs that don't have former collegiate wrestlers as coaches.  And I stick by your comment about Coach Stevens being out of line.  

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After reading 4 pages of responses, I would say a few things. Times have changed, most of the kids are friends, have each others phone numbers, are face book friends. They all know what weight each other are going, and if they are doing ok or not. If you dont believe me, take a look at some of your wrestlers facebook pages, see if there are wrestlers from all over the state, and or country there. Do you think they are not talking?  This is a tight knit community, any secret you have will not last longer then the 1st time you try it. After that, someone will ask the kid, how did so and so beat you, from that point on, whatever you did will spread through the wrestlers and they will do 2 things. They will try that move on you, to see if they can beat you with it as well, and 2, they will work against it, so if they have to face the other kid, he cant do it to them.

 

So if a coach wants to keep his wrestlers names out of the paper, off this site, or any other form of publication until the finals of the state series, the only people he is stopping from getting the information are the casual fans, and the family of the wrestlers that find it quite nice to take a copy of the article in and post it on their work place bulletin board to brag about their son getting in the paper.

 

I could care less if he wants to share the info or not, after the 1st home match it will be there anyway, unless he also does not want to print out a flyer, or program in case a conference opponent comes to scout and then actually finds out the name of the 130 pound kid from last year that is now at 135 or 140.

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Just so everyone knows I'm all for this great sport to get as much publicity as possible. Now about my post which I never thought would go this far, but I, like in some previous post state, just want to give our team the best chance to win, and if that's by not wanting another team to know our lineup then that's my opinion. I just didn't want a few teams we would be seeing to know and be able to bump around to beat us. Just trying to give us the best chance to win a dual. But like I did state in my post, there are ways to get peoples line ups and like someone else stated, let a coach, wrestler, parent, fan, etc get it by going to scout or making a phone call or send out an email to other coaches.

I won't lie and say I don't like seeing our guys names get there mentioned in the rankings, newspaper, or on the board cause I do! Every kid deserves to be recognized and get any publicity they deserve. In previous posts made by that person and others might have made it look like MtVernon likes to talk alot about there wrestlers, I just don't want MtVernon labeled as cocky. We work hard and will continue to work hard to get our wrestlers as far as possible not only on the mat but also in life., and as much publicity as they deserve!

I apologize to MVwatcher for calling you out on our line up, I know you do it with the best intentions and hope you will continue to support MtVernon Wrestling. Also an apology to RankingsGuy for keeping information away from you to do your job, and yes I did lose first round regionals to Caleb Schmitt(future State Champ) of Castle 1-0. I will be the first to say I wasn't the best but I do love this sport and will do whatever to help it. So sorry to all on this board I may have offended.

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This message is not aimed at Hunter, whom I do not know, but in general to people who feel wrestling is some top secret operation and get bent when their results are shown on here. I would agree on most things with Y2 and Rankings Guy (I wouldn't agree that a coach had to be a great wrestler to be a great coach). For those of us who are fans but do not have the time to attend a lot of the meets due to our professional and family obligations, this site is a great resource. It keeps us involved in a sport that we would have otherwise lost contact with because local papers cover it less than ever. A large part of that is because many wrestling coaches do not get their sport and their kids names out there. With this site, the information distribution takes care of itself. Instead of trying to censor your already small fanbase, let them enjoy the sport how they want.

 

Yeah, there is some trash talking and misinformation, but that just shows there is a lot of passion for the sport. Coaches who get bent out of shape about this site are only hurting the sport. Each coach should be jumping at the opportunity to put their kids names, results, and articles on this site because it is read and followed by so many. If you're worried about it getting in your kids heads and affecting their performance or hurting secret matchups, then there are bigger issues in the mat room that need to be addressed than worrying about this forum. With today's technology, no one is sneaking up on anyone anymore.

 

I know for a fact that two wrestlers in our area had colleges looking at them because of this website. Without getting the names and results out there, we are hurting their opportunities. Thanks to Y2, Rankings Guy, and the other contributors on this site for helping get wrestling on the map in Indiana.

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1.) If you don't know who Coach Stevens is then you should not be bashing him on the board.

2.) Our sport is not doomed to stay in the dark ages because of coaches like Coach Stevens. Is is doomed to be an unpopular sport socially because of its nature. It is hard and kids these days are not willing to work hard. It is not popular to "roll around with a sweaty guy". It is not popular to bust ur A$$ at times all by yourself to succeed. It is much more popular to pass the ball when the game is on the line or let a styd carry your team to victory.

3.) What is publicity and what does it do for you? It puts a big A$$ target on your back. If Coach Stevens prefers to be the hunter instead of the hunted, props to him. That is a noble ploy to help his team and kids stay focused. Maybe they don't want or need publicity or publication. That stuff is all vain.

4.) Those of you who don't want your line ups posted or prefer not to have your information posted without your say, way to stand up for a CLASS ACT like Coach Stevens. He is one of the few coaches who does things the right way, ALWAYS! Shame on those of you who choose to throw his name in the dirt. Those of you who did, YOU are a JOKE!

 

 

What difference does having "a big A$$ target on your back" have to do with anything? If you're trying to fly under the radar it won't last long. And the best kids are going to wrestle you tough regardless of whether you're ranked, lauded, touted or your lineup is known to the community.

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