1oldwrestler Posted November 16, 2010 Share Posted November 16, 2010 As the State of Indiana Coaches Assoc comes together to approach the IHSAA about the subject of classing wrestling, I have a question? What, if anything, makes the IHSAA different than any of the other h.s. governing bodies in the states where wrestling is classed? To me on this website, it seems that the only thing they are worried about is nflow of cash which is no surprise. If this is the only they are truly interested in, then the committee better come to them with some details around dollars and not just the number of people filing through the gates to see a tournament. I think this will mean getting in touch with the h.s. associations of states that are similar in size and makeup to IN and trying to pry some actual figures from them. You're going to have to do the IHSAA's job a little bit when you go out and get these numbers (Should THEY do it? Yes. Will they do it? No.) but when you make it easier on them they may be more inclined to listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chambers Posted November 16, 2010 Share Posted November 16, 2010 I could be wrong but my understanding is that the coaches association has talked to the IHSAA about classing the team tournament in the past. The IHSAA has said that we cannot class the team tournament without classing the individual tournament as well. The coaches association was not interested in classing the individual tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted November 16, 2010 Share Posted November 16, 2010 I could be wrong but my understanding is that the coaches association has talked to the IHSAA about classing the team tournament in the past. The IHSAA has said that we cannot class the team tournament without classing the individual tournament as well. The coaches association was not interested in classing the individual tournament. I dont believe this to be the case. Im not sure if we have ever proposed classing the team side, I do know that no one has ever said that we would have to class both if we classed one. I think that this idea comes more from the idea that we are still considered an Individual sport, and no individual sport has classing, this is despite the fact that we have a independent team aspect to our sport. I have heard this rumor as well that if we class one we have to class both, and this is not the case. I fear that some who feel this way are afraid of a really good thing happening ( classed team state) because they dont want the indivdual side classed. I hope we can all realize that the two could be different things and that they are not nesacarilly one in the same. Our association reps would be able to clarify what we have, and have not proposed in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted November 16, 2010 Share Posted November 16, 2010 The coaches association had a proposal about 10 years ago and it was fairly unanimous(something around 90%). At the last second, the IHSWCA big wigs then decided to attach wrestle-backs on the proposal, against EVERYTHING the voting members wanted. Both got shot down. I think the IHSAA is against classing anything because of the backlash they received when they classed our precious basketball tournament. There are still people who claim it ruined basketball. Bobby Plump is still on his bar stool taking pot shots at the IHSAA. The IHSAA also does not care too much about what other states do. For instance they pride themselves as being the only state with an all-in format for football amongst other sports. The experiences of telling them that Ohio, Michigan, etc have wrestle-backs has never impressed them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted November 16, 2010 Share Posted November 16, 2010 I dont believe this to be the case. Im not sure if we have ever proposed classing the team side, I do know that no one has ever said that we would have to class both if we classed one. I think that this idea comes more from the idea that we are still considered an Individual sport, and no individual sport has classing, this is despite the fact that we have a independent team aspect to our sport. I have heard this rumor as well that if we class one we have to class both, and this is not the case. I fear that some who feel this way are afraid of a really good thing happening ( classed team state) because they dont want the indivdual side classed. I hope we can all realize that the two could be different things and that they are not nesacarilly one in the same. Our association reps would be able to clarify what we have, and have not proposed in the past. Umm yes they have proposed team classed state From 2001 A motion to approve a wrestling class team tournament was made by Dennis Eller; seconded by Phillip Gardner; motion failed 0-18. A motion to table a proposed wrestling class team tournament was made by Joseph Trimboli; seconded by Michael Powell; motion failed 3-15 with Lee Lonzo, Michael Powell, and Joseph Trimboli in support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted November 16, 2010 Share Posted November 16, 2010 Umm yes they have proposed team classed state From 2001 A motion to approve a wrestling class team tournament was made by Dennis Eller; seconded by Phillip Gardner; motion failed 0-18. A motion to table a proposed wrestling class team tournament was made by Joseph Trimboli; seconded by Michael Powell; motion failed 3-15 with Lee Lonzo, Michael Powell, and Joseph Trimboli in support. I stand corrected, I did not know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chambers Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 I dont believe this to be the case. Im not sure if we have ever proposed classing the team side, I do know that no one has ever said that we would have to class both if we classed one. I think that this idea comes more from the idea that we are still considered an Individual sport, and no individual sport has classing, this is despite the fact that we have a independent team aspect to our sport. I have heard this rumor as well that if we class one we have to class both, and this is not the case. I fear that some who feel this way are afraid of a really good thing happening ( classed team state) because they dont want the indivdual side classed. I hope we can all realize that the two could be different things and that they are not nesacarilly one in the same. Our association reps would be able to clarify what we have, and have not proposed in the past. I also do not know if anyone has ever said that if we classed one tournament we would have to class them both. I do know that between 5-10 years ago I sat in a gym in Indianapolis for half the day at the coaches association meeting and the guys in charge said that when they had their meeting with Bobby Cox that he said that if we class the team state tournament then the individual tournament would also be classed. You could be right and the officers of the coaches association were just lying to us that year about what Bobby Cox said to them. I don't believe that to be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 That may have been this case, I spoke from just the feeling that I have gotten from all talks that I have ever had with those who I consider knowledgable on the subject. My mistake, not trying to call you or anyone else out. Should have said I believe instead of I know. Either way i/have never felt in any encounters that I have had with the ihswca that classing one means the other would have to be. Maybe the case then, I don't think it would be today. Again I apologize for thinking I knew when apparently I did not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awood1 Posted November 18, 2010 Share Posted November 18, 2010 It pains me to say it, but after experiencing it for 5 seasons now I gotta say California got it right....class for team, all in for individual titles. But then again, they regularly have all day tnmts on a school day and run MS tnmts. like freestyle tnmts....good and bad everywhere I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted November 18, 2010 Share Posted November 18, 2010 Where is the team dual series in California? I only see one champion determined by the individual finals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Peck Posted November 18, 2010 Share Posted November 18, 2010 The coaches association had a proposal about 10 years ago and it was fairly unanimous(something around 90%). At the last second, the IHSWCA big wigs then decided to attach wrestle-backs on the proposal, against EVERYTHING the voting members wanted. Both got shot down. To the best of my knowledge the IHSWCA has NEVER proposed anything that did not have the support of a reasonable majority of it's membership. I am pretty sure that the IHSWCA has never made a proposal that was..."against EVERYTHING the voting members wanted." Around 80% approval of it's membership, as evidenced by surveys, has been the lowest level of support that I can ever remember for an item proposed by the IHSWCA to the IHSAA. I have heard Booby Cox and Blake Ress says on numerous occasions that the individual Wrestling Tournament will be changed to a "class" tournament when all other sports that the IHSAA considers Individual Sports are moved to "class". I may still have Bobby saying this on video tape. Personally, I would just as soon see the IHSAA scrap the Dual Tournament in it's current format. At it's inception the feeling was that the IHSAA was headed toward classing everything and that the Dual Tournament would be classed eventually which would have made it a good tournament in conjunction with a classed individual tournament, but that did not (will not) happen. The people who are for keeping the Dual Tournament will say that we can keep it and work for "classing" it, but I think that is a pipe dream and a way to maybe prop it up for a few more years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indyt Posted November 18, 2010 Share Posted November 18, 2010 Rexy, I love you to death man, but I surely can not see how a coach I model myself after can not see what I see with the team tournament. How it is not good for wrestling and a bad thing is beyond me. I wish on sunday you would have given this opinion and then given me some insight on how you see it so that I can look at all sides. And, I just dont see when talking to Bobby yesterday where there is no chance of not having something change. This is the first time I have seen anyone seriously go after class. I do remember the talk but not this kind of push. I know, he is going to do what he does. I have seen it. I have lived it. But, I think we can change it. I live by pipe dreams. I just hope some dont smoke the pipe and let their dreams float away in a puff of smoke. Like I said, you are the man. Anyone who has coached Girls Golf gets my vote!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Peck Posted November 18, 2010 Share Posted November 18, 2010 Rexy, I love you to death man, but I surely can not see how a coach I model myself after can not see what I see with the team tournament. How it is not good for wrestling and a bad thing is beyond me. I wish on sunday you would have given this opinion and then given me some insight on how you see it so that I can look at all sides. And, I just dont see when talking to Bobby yesterday where there is no chance of not having something change. This is the first time I have seen anyone seriously go after class. I do remember the talk but not this kind of push. I know, he is going to do what he does. I have seen it. I have lived it. But, I think we can change it. I live by pipe dreams. I just hope some dont smoke the pipe and let their dreams float away in a puff of smoke. Like I said, you are the man. Anyone who has coached Girls Golf gets my vote!!!! I will respond more thoroughly later.... Bobby Cox wants to get rid of the Dual Tournament. We may be able to pump it up through special promotions and etc. this year, but how long does that last? They are not a group to be reasoned with, or who one who has shown any propensity to be swayed through statistical information, valid pleas, or common sense. The 0nly time we have ever gotten something from the IHSAA that they did not specifically want was when we crammed it down their throat. I do not have the energy for that anymore, and I am not sure that I see anyone else who really does either. I am just not one who wishes to chase effort after folly, and I think eventually that is what will be done. Bobby Cox will say that if we get attendance up that they will keep the Tournament, but if that happens then he will come up with another hoop to jump through. That is their game....keep their pets jumping through hoops. I have never been one that liked jumping through hoops. I am more of a throw them down and dive on them type of guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~B~DOGG~SMASH~ Posted November 19, 2010 Share Posted November 19, 2010 Get rid of Bobby Cox then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awood1 Posted November 19, 2010 Share Posted November 19, 2010 Where is the team dual series in California? I only see one champion determined by the individual finals. Teams only wrestle to the Division level (which is about equal to the number of schools in he state of IN). Much like football, that only plays to a "Section champion". They have 5 Divisions and you qualify by winning you league, then your section tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Peck Posted November 19, 2010 Share Posted November 19, 2010 California is almost a country unto itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Guru Posted November 21, 2010 Share Posted November 21, 2010 I'm not naive about the way the world works, but I just can't get over the a-hole attitude of supporting/promoting youth athletics solely for profit. It just doesn't sit well with me. These kids, and the opportunities for them to succeed in youth athletics, should not be a for profit business for bureacratic jerkoffs to make a living from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awood1 Posted November 25, 2010 Share Posted November 25, 2010 California is almost a country unto itself. True...but they only have 1 state champion at each weight! ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted November 25, 2010 Share Posted November 25, 2010 Indiana still has the smallest percentage of wrestlers qualify for state, so we are tougher than you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y21AB Posted November 25, 2010 Share Posted November 25, 2010 Indiana still has the smallest percentage of wrestlers qualify for state, so we are tougher than you! burn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awood1 Posted December 1, 2010 Share Posted December 1, 2010 Indiana still has the smallest percentage of wrestlers qualify for state, so we are tougher than you! Interested in how you came up with that #? 16 qualify from 320 HS's (making the leap, although not true, that everyone that has football also has wrestling)...that means 5% or 1:20 qualifies for state. CA has 40 qualify out of 1,442 HS's....that means about 2.7% or 1:36 qualifies for state. I will go a step further (out on a limb) and say that "qualifying" is no measure of success and point that both states only "recognize" the top 8. That means 8 from 320 schools in IN or the top 2.5%.....in CA that means 8 from 1,442 schools or the top 0.55%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted December 1, 2010 Share Posted December 1, 2010 Interested in how you came up with that #? 16 qualify from 320 HS's (making the leap, although not true, that everyone that has football also has wrestling)...that means 5% or 1:20 qualifies for state. CA has 40 qualify out of 1,442 HS's....that means about 2.7% or 1:36 qualifies for state. I will go a step further (out on a limb) and say that "qualifying" is no measure of success and point that both states only "recognize" the top 8. That means 8 from 320 schools in IN or the top 2.5%.....in CA that means 8 from 1,442 schools or the top 0.55%. The NFHS says the California has about 800 schools with wrestling programs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nnhs Posted December 1, 2010 Share Posted December 1, 2010 Personally, I would just as soon see the IHSAA scrap the Dual Tournament in it's current format. At it's inception the feeling was that the IHSAA was headed toward classing everything and that the Dual Tournament would be classed eventually which would have made it a good tournament in conjunction with a classed individual tournament, but that did not (will not) happen. The people who are for keeping the Dual Tournament will say that we can keep it and work for "classing" it, but I think that is a pipe dream and a way to maybe prop it up for a few more years. Coach Peck your statement above is how I have felt about this for years. I want it to be classed but dont see it ever happening Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts