Y2CJ41 Posted November 22, 2010 Share Posted November 22, 2010 So you are saying most schools are undermining a program meant to protect the health of kids? Not only that they are undermining rules made by the IHSAA. Do we really have to wonder why we are having thing s like Team State taken away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boilermaker Posted November 22, 2010 Share Posted November 22, 2010 Assuming both of the wrestlers mentioned were at their walk around or football weight at the start of the wrestling season, there is no way either of them or their coach is following the weight management plan. Karl, did you miss the part about being 122 in August? The Post didn't ask when he weighed that much or how long it took to lose it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted November 22, 2010 Share Posted November 22, 2010 Karl, did you miss the part about being 122 in August? The Post didn't ask when he weighed that much or how long it took to lose it. I appologize, I did not see your response. All I saw is that his walk around weight is 122. Still wouldn't account for Seaman, if he were truly 240 at the end of football then he hasn't had enough time to drop 25 pounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boilermaker Posted November 22, 2010 Share Posted November 22, 2010 I did not see the word August. All I saw is that his walk around weight is 122. Still wouldn't account for Seaman, if he were truly 240 at the end of football then he hasn't had enough time to drop 25 pounds. It's in my comments not the article. I'm AM's dad and don't want people misreading the Post's article who seemed interested in focusing on weight loss without asking the right questions. He lost the weight over 10+ weeks properly and actually only a few lbs from 112 at start of season. If the question on the 171 forfeit was meant for Munster -vs- Delphi, our 171 lber hurt his shoulder in the previous match and did not finish his bout. I assume Munster forfeited cause even if we had a backup (JV), they aren't going to throw him to face Lynde. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RegionDad Posted November 22, 2010 Author Share Posted November 22, 2010 The football weight was from August. Most of it was lost before wrestling season started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted November 22, 2010 Share Posted November 22, 2010 The football weight was from August. Most of it was lost before wrestling season started. Fair enough. If I were the coach at Munster, I might have a chat with the author of the article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJAM152 Posted November 22, 2010 Share Posted November 22, 2010 Anthony Quiroz did not wrestle due to injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ontherise219 Posted November 23, 2010 Share Posted November 23, 2010 Thanks bud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RegionDad Posted November 23, 2010 Author Share Posted November 23, 2010 How much weight is a wrestler allowed to lose per week anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwkwrestler12 Posted November 24, 2010 Share Posted November 24, 2010 How much weight is a wrestler allowed to lose per week anyway? When the wrestler weighs in and takes his body fat, whatever his weight is that day, he can lose 1.5% of that body weight per week. At least that is my understanding of the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RegionDad Posted November 24, 2010 Author Share Posted November 24, 2010 So a 200 lb. wrestler is only allowed to lose 3 lbs. per week? They can easily lose that in 1 day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted November 24, 2010 Share Posted November 24, 2010 So a 200 lb. wrestler is only allowed to lose 3 lbs. per week? They can easily lose that in 1 day! Not if they want to stick to their weight management plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted November 24, 2010 Share Posted November 24, 2010 Not if they want to stick to their weight management plan. Karl - quick question. Are you or a member of your coaching staff actually visually observing your wrestlers when they are peeing in the bottle after they weigh in (that means you are in the stall with them as they providing the sample) and are you or a member of your coaching staff watching them actually hand that bottle to the trainer making sure that they don't make a stop at the faucet first? If you are doing that, then I applaud you and you have every right to maintain the holier than thou attitude about adhering to the weight mangement program. If you or a member of your coaching staff isn't doing that, well, I think you see where I'm going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted November 24, 2010 Share Posted November 24, 2010 Karl - quick question. Are you or a member of your coaching staff actually visually observing your wrestlers when they are peeing in the bottle after they weigh in (that means you are in the stall with them as they providing the sample) and are you or a member of your coaching staff watching them actually hand that bottle to the trainer making sure that they don't make a stop at the faucet first? If you are doing that, then I applaud you and you have every right to maintain the holier than thou attitude about adhering to the weight mangement program. If you or a member of your coaching staff isn't doing that, well, I think you see where I'm going. I guess if we had a culture where I thought kids would cheat their hydration test, i would monitor it more closely. That culture does not exist where I coach and I'm not sure I would be coaching if kids felt pressure to cheat a hydration test. If that is holier than thou....so be it. And if calling attention to examples where it appears the weight management system is being subverted is holier than thou, I am guilty. Quick question for you....do the kids you coach feel pressured to cheat the hydration test? Who is applying the pressure? I think you see where I am going with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted November 24, 2010 Share Posted November 24, 2010 I guess if we had a culture where I thought kids would cheat their hydration test, i would monitor it more closely. That culture does not exist where I coach and I'm not sure I would be coaching if kids felt pressure to cheat a hydration test. If that is holier than thou....so be it. And if calling attention to examples where it appears the weight management system is being subverted is holier than thou, I am guilty. Quick question for you....do the kids you coach feel pressured to cheat the hydration test? Who is applying the pressure? I think you see where I am going with this. I'm not a coach, just a dad that knows a few things. Kids don't receive pressure to cheat the hydration test from their coaches. That's not what I'm saying at all. Kids cheat the hydration test becasue they know that if they don't cut more than the program allows they'll be at a competitive disadvantage because the vast majority of their competition, and good competition (I'd guess that the only kids who aren't outside the bounds of the weight management program are the ones standing on the top two levels of the podium at the end of year) are outside the bounds of the weight manegemnt program. I just get tired of you coaches who act like the weight management program is so stricltly adhered to. It isn't and I know for a fact it isn't. Ask a few guys who were in your program but graduated a couple years ago if they ever cheated the hydration test. You may be surprised by the answers you get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted November 24, 2010 Share Posted November 24, 2010 I'm not a coach, just a dad that knows a few things. Kids don't receive pressure to cheat the hydration test from their coaches. That's not what I'm saying at all. Kids cheat the hydration test becasue they know that if they don't cut more than the program allows they'll be at a competitive disadvantage because the vast majority of their competition, and good competition (I'd guess that the only kids who aren't outside the bounds of the weight management program are the ones standing on the top two levels of the podium at the end of year) are outside the bounds of the weight manegemnt program. I just get tired of you coaches who act like the weight management program is so stricltly adhered to. It isn't and I know for a fact it isn't. Ask a few guys who were in your program but graduated a couple years ago if they ever cheated the hydration test. You may be surprised by the answers you get. I am not claiming that the weight management program is strictly adhered to. If you know for a FACT that the program is being subverted then you should contact the IHSAA. There have been only two instances that I know of where coaches have been reprimanded for not following the plan. I, like you, feel it happens much more frequently. That is why I called attention to the newspaper article where it "APPEARED" as if the program was being subverted. As for our program, we are an open book. If you want to monitor the hydration test and look at our weigh-in sheets, be my guest. Our best and most competitive kid qualified for state as a 189 freshman weighing 181 pounds. This year he played football at about 195 and has settled at a comfortable 187 as the season get fully underway. We will try to stay competitive and reach the podium doing it that way with all of our kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingMan Posted November 24, 2010 Share Posted November 24, 2010 My comment on talking about weight loss to papers was just that. Don't fuel a fire that isn't well supported within the tabloids. Weight loss is a band-wagon that we don't want or need do-gooders who have nothing to do with the sport jumping on. (True story, a fourth grader, not my wrestler, at our previous school was getting ready to go to the Tournament of Champion in Ohio years ago and was licking the sides of Doritos at the school cafateria because he was "cutting weight." Wouldn't eat the chip, just licked them...dumb butt. The school actually debated calling child services on the parents. They opted not to but called the coach and had him explain...true story as my mother was his homeroom teacher at the time). That is just one example of how people outside of wrestling don't understand weight management and had no idea that the kid was eating just fine at home...it was just something to get some attention from his school mates. Looked bad and could have been real bad had the school followed their first instinct. Just don't give them anything to use against the program and weight loss is a big gotcha. I also firmly believe that coaches play by the rules. If they don't the penalty is just too high. My post was not questioning the programs behind the wrestlers or ever implying that a wrestler "cheats" (didn't know it was possible to be honest). From what I read on this post is that there is a lot more feeling behind weight loss and how it is managed than I ever believed but publicity and commenting on it can (not always) reflect poorly on this sport. And no one knows the body-fat of each wrestler and what they are allowed to lose by IHSAA rules except the wrestler, the coach and hopefully the parents (I know what ours it). Someone cutting 10 pounds in a short time can be legit. And from what I have seen over the years, wrestling work-outs are much more intense than football so yes, I can believe a football player/wrestler can cut weight very quickly once he is absorbed into the wrestling program. For some of the wrestlers who had successfull football programs that loss could be over one week or several before they compete in wrestling. I do believe that rules are followed by coaches and I just don't see that big of weight differences at the tournaments to make me believe otherwise. Now, when the 2-pound allowance kicks in, I can see that, but even though it is a small amount of weight anyone can see a difference in their wrestler if the see them every day. But once again, there are rules and even with the allowance and I believe the rules are followed. Who on this forum hasn't taken their athlete to a two or three day tournament with only one weigh in and see the wrestlers immediately after weigh in or better yet the next day? It is amazing how those kids can change in such a short time, but those are the rules. We just don't see that in the IHSAA tournaments here. In regards to the forfiets...no it wasn't Munster as the coach actually apologized for not having a 171 pounder late in the day due to an injury incurred at the tournament and we already knew of Anthony's injury (hope both of those boys heal soon). It was Ekhart Memorial who had two healthy 171 pounders that gave up the forfiet after they had already beat us. That strategy just rubs me the wrong way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted November 24, 2010 Share Posted November 24, 2010 I am not claiming that the weight management program is strictly adhered to. If you know for a FACT that the program is being subverted then you should contact the IHSAA. As for our program, we are an open book. If you want to monitor the hydration test and look at our weigh-in sheets, be my guest. Our best and most competitive kid qualified for state as a 189 freshman weighing 181 pounds. This year he played football at about 195 and has settled at a comfortable 187 as the season get fully underway. We will try to stay competitive and reach the podium doing it that way with all of our kids. The coaches didn't do anything wrong regarding the instances I'm talking about so I certainly am not going to report the school to the IHSAA. It was and is the kids. They're the ones who want to be competitive so they move outside the bounds. I'm not trying to cast a bad light on any program but I believe the coaches are in a don't ask, don't tell mode with their kids regarding this hydration thing. Glad you're an open book but it's pretty easy for the heavier weight kids to get away wrestling at their near natural weight. I'm more talking about the kids that wrestle between 103 and 160. You got a lot of examples of kids on your team (that are any good) at the lighter weights wrestling at their near walking around weight? I contend that the majority of kids that are above average wrestlers are outside the bounds of the weight mangement program. For the record, I'm not for cutting a lot of weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted November 24, 2010 Share Posted November 24, 2010 The coaches didn't do anything wrong regarding the instances I'm talking about so I certainly am not going to report the school to the IHSAA. It was and is the kids. They're the ones who want to be competitive so they move outside the bounds. I'm not trying to cast a bad light on any program but I believe the coaches are in a don't ask, don't tell mode with their kids regarding this hydration thing. Glad you're an open book but it's pretty easy for the heavier weight kids to get away wrestling at their near natural weight. I'm more talking about the kids that wrestle between 103 and 160. You got a lot of examples of kids on your team (that are any good) at the lighter weights wrestling at their near walking around weight? I contend that the majority of kids that are above average wrestlers are outside the bounds of the weight mangement program. For the record, I'm not for cutting a lot of weight. We have 5 decent kids under 160. Our 152's alpha weight was 154. Our 135's alpha weight was 134. Our 130's alpha weight was 133. Our 112's alpha weight was 114 and change and our 103's alpha weight was 105 and change. We did alpha weigh ins 3 days after football ended so our 152 and 112 were at walking around weight. Our 135 walking around weight is less then his class and I can't say for certain if our 130 cut before alpha weigh ins or not but i would be surprised if he did. Cheating is cheating. If you know for a fact that kids are cheating to gain a competitive advantage by doctoring their hydration test it is still cheating and should be reported. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted November 24, 2010 Share Posted November 24, 2010 Someone cutting 10 pounds in a short time can be legit. And from what I have seen over the years, wrestling work-outs are much more intense than football so yes, I can believe a football player/wrestler can cut weight very quickly once he is absorbed into the wrestling program. For some of the wrestlers who had successfull football programs that loss could be over one week or several before they compete in wrestling. 1 pounders that gave up the forfiet after they had already beat us. That strategy just rubs me the wrong way. For someone to legally lose 10 lbs in one week following the 1.5% guideline they would have to weigh 666 pounds. For a 165 lb. kid it would take them a month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chambers Posted November 25, 2010 Share Posted November 25, 2010 Karl - quick question. Are you or a member of your coaching staff actually visually observing your wrestlers when they are peeing in the bottle after they weigh in (that means you are in the stall with them as they providing the sample) and are you or a member of your coaching staff watching them actually hand that bottle to the trainer making sure that they don't make a stop at the faucet first? If you are doing that, then I applaud you and you have every right to maintain the holier than thou attitude about adhering to the weight mangement program. If you or a member of your coaching staff isn't doing that, well, I think you see where I'm going. Actually If I read and understand the rules right the coaching staff has no responsibility or job during the hydration test and body fat test. The trainer or athletic director should be in charge of the tests. The coaches do not need to even be in the school when they are done. And the hydration test should be done before the body fat test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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