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Team State Debate


Darrick Snyder

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team state is very important and needs to stay. our program and i'm sure other programs get more and more kids coming out each year and interested in the sport just because of the fact that they want to be a part of the tradition. it also wouldn't be fair to the average wrestlers because if they don't qualify for the individual competition they may not feel that they contributed to the team if that is the way they decide team champions. the way i look at it is that you can't have an individual tournament decide team champions. it just doesn't truley determine who the best team is the state is. so ihsaa do the people a favor and keep team state going

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being from Michigan I have always thought Team State shows which team is truly the best.  my team Richmond has won 4 Team State titles in the last 4 years. In that same time there was only 3 individual state champions. its all about kids stepping up for the team whether a freshman doesn't get pinned by a returning all-stater or a kid needing to get a pin in the final match.  I feel a team can have 3 studs and win the state championship if determined by individuals. there could be 11 other puds on the team and yet that team is considered the best in the state.

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The coach's association still awards a TEAM state championship trophy based on the results from the INDIVIDUAL tournament.  I would imagine this is interpreted as a huge slap in the face to the IHSAA.

 

Is it any wonder the IHSAA tends not to listen to the coaches association.

 

In regards to the team state series, I think its a done deal and any efforts to save it will be futile.

 

I also feel that the coaches association has largely made their own bed on this issue and will now have to sleep in it.

 

To effect change, I think it comes down to having a coaches association that the principals, ADs, and subsequently the IHSAA respects.

 

I don't think our sport has that at this time. 

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being from Michigan I have always thought Team State shows which team is truly the best.  my team Richmond has won 4 Team State titles in the last 4 years. In that same time there was only 3 individual state champions. its all about kids stepping up for the team whether a freshman doesn't get pinned by a returning all-stater or a kid needing to get a pin in the final match.  I feel a team can have 3 studs and win the state championship if determined by individuals. there could be 11 other puds on the team and yet that team is considered the best in the state.

 

this is exactly why we should keep team state

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also if your goal is to win team state you will schedule more dual meet tournaments. our coach would try to schedule at least 6 or 7 of our weekend tournaments as dual meets. if you have round robin format, you can get each kid 5 matches every weekend. add that to double duals during the week and most kids on our team had nearly 50 matches going into districts. that is how you make kids better wrestlers by having them wrestle that many matches and in turn make the team stronger. 

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Y2 how is it that you have a team that went 20-1 and are not relavant in the team series? You guys have a damn fine team every year and as a fellow coach in you sectional I respect what you guys do.  But how is it that you don't feel you have a shot in the team series?  Our sectional has been won by Whitko the last two years, Whitko made it the regional finals, and got beat by a great yorktown team.  Do you really rhink that you guys, or Whitko could never win that regional?  I just don't see why you would have a defeatest attitude about it,  your seriously not that far off.

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Y2 how is it that you have a team that went 20-1 and are not relavant in the team series? You guys have a damn fine team every year and as a fellow coach in you sectional I respect what you guys do.  But how is it that you don't feel you have a shot in the team series?  Our sectional has been won by Whitko the last two years, Whitko made it the regional finals, and got beat by a great yorktown team.  Do you really rhink that you guys, or Whitko could never win that regional?  I just don't see why you would have a defeatest attitude about it,  your seriously not that far off.

 

The 20-1 team was during the Columbia City juggernaut era.  Those CC teams were every bit as good as Yorktown.

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Y2 how is it that you have a team that went 20-1 and are not relavant in the team series? You guys have a damn fine team every year and as a fellow coach in you sectional I respect what you guys do.  But how is it that you don't feel you have a shot in the team series?  Our sectional has been won by Whitko the last two years, Whitko made it the regional finals, and got beat by a great yorktown team.  Do you really rhink that you guys, or Whitko could never win that regional?  I just don't see why you would have a defeatest attitude about it,  your seriously not that far off.

The team that was 20-1 had a Columbia City team that was a couple points from being in the state finals in their sectional.  Add to that a very tough Snider team in the regional and our best team of all time's chances of going far in the team tournament weren't very good.  Last year we were supposed to have one of our best teams ever and would have if it were not for injuries to two guys that would have at least been at semi-state last year.  The difference in being a good team and great team at a small school is very minimal and can be determined by one injury, suspension, or a kid not coming out.

 

What you don't realize is that in order for us to make a real challenge for the team state series, we have to have quite a special team.  On top of that other teams in the sectional/regional have to be having a somewhat down year.  We also can't have injuries, suspensions or other factors that limit our kids  at the end of the season.  We have had some great teams lately, but no where near the caliber that would be needed to contend to go to team state.  We also have to hope Bellmont and Yorktown are either having down years or we match up just perfectly with them.  We basically have a chance to truly compete in the current team series once every 20 years, if that.  

 

Its not a "defeatest" attitude, it is a dose of reality.  I know what it will take for us to compete for a team regional champion and last year was our best shot ever until we had an injury in the preseason to one of our best returners.  We are still a long ways off from beating the likes of Bellmont and Yorktown.  We will continue to win matches against those teams, but honestly we are not at their level at the current time.

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I agree, but couldn't yorktown have said the same thing years ago?  When I was in school at Norwell we used to beat Yorktown at the ecic, and now they are at the level to compete to go to state every year not every 20 years why can't you?  I'm at a small school too and you guys beat us last year, but I don't sit here and say we will never be able to beat you guys, I like to think we could get to your level and more, like Whitko has recently.  All I'm saying is that its certainly not impossible for a small school to be right in the mix every year.  If you remember whitko had some devistating injuries last year too but overcame it for the sectional despite their size.

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Yorktown made two trips to team state in 2000 and 2001, this was not their first rodeo.  They probably would have had another trip to team state if it were not for the realignment putting them against Bellmont each year. 

 

Whitko lost one semi-state qualifier and even he would not have had much impact when the final score at team regional was 45-19.  Whitko had one of their best teams ever, just at the wrong time.  If the alignment was the way it was two years ago they or Jimtown would have probably represented the area at state.  Instead they got beat by the top two teams in the state at regional.  That is the difference, these small schools have such a small amount of room for error that one thing that changes and their hopes of being at team state are gone. 

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A few things,  I am so happy there is so much talk about this. It really shows we care. I am optimistic so I believe there is still a chance. Tomorrow we can either debate over this proposal or this way of running the team state but the bottom line right from Bobby himself is this.  We have to agree to succeed in these two areas

1. We have got to pull together and get our teams, coaches and fans to the team state. Be creative. Make it a weekend trip with a big clinic, something. We have to boost the attendance and prove it's worth

 

2. We can not send jv teams out to compete. Don't get me wrong. I can see why it's been done in the past. IHSAA will never understand it. Compete, use it to build., like jeffersonville has  

 

This will change how they see us and it

 

Y2, I know that it seems like people are jumping on the class bandwagon but so what. Whatever it takes. I agree u did not get much support on it in the past. I have been saying on posts for several years how cool it would be to have the trifecta going on at the same time. But we have to keep the tournament before we change it

 

Also people need to understand, making it is not a shoe in for any team. Castle takes EMD down after a decade or so of domination. We had Frankin, Avon, Bloomington South in our regional last year.   All teams we have lost to before. In fact frankin is one of the top teams in appearances in the history of the tournament. South has been there several times and Avon was the runner-up. It's competitive out there.

 

Let's get together tomorrow and decide to prove we all care what happens to OUR tournament.

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The coach's association still awards a TEAM state championship trophy based on the results from the INDIVIDUAL tournament.  I would imagine this is interpreted as a huge slap in the face to the IHSAA.

 

Huh.  I always thought that was the "Coaches Trophy" based on whatever school scored the most individual points at the individual state finals.  And wasa in no way shape or form called a "TEAM state championship" or a "TEAM state championship trophy".  But rather in recognition of the coach for  prepared the most individuals to preform well over a tough two days of competition.   Not sure that trophy is so disrespectful to the IHSAA that they would hold a such vindetta against the coaches association that would result in them wanting to eliminate team state all together.  

 

Its much more realistic to think they want to cut teams state because

1. The economy is tough and believe budget cuts mean you have to cut corners in all sports

2. Budget cuts mean less IHSAA workers help organize everything involved in the sports so consolidate/simplify in some areas makes it easier on them

3. A stagnant growth in attendence and a stagnant growth in wrestling probably has cause the IHSAA place less emphasis on this event and shift the funds to help in other areas/sports that they believe may get a boost in attendence and growth as a sport from it.

 

Though we don't always help our improve our cause as a group.  Much of this may have more to do with the current state of the economy and IHSAA than it does something the wrestling community has done to upset or disrespect the IHSAA.  In the scheme of things any time a stuggle occurs and tough decisions need to be made lower teir sports like wrestling will be the first to take a hit because of its status in Indiana compared to other IHSAA sponsored sports.  I'm sure we are not the only sport that has or is currently taking some hits from the IHSAA.  We will have to prove it worth it financially and sport growth wise to keep team state. Because just saying its good for the sport, it helps a few teams get community recognition, and it shows a true team champion is not motivation enough for the IHSAA reguardless of what they say their group actually is suppose to stand for.

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Huh.  I always thought that was the "Coaches Trophy" based on whatever school scored the most individual points at the individual state finals.  And wasa in no way shape or form called a "TEAM state championship" or a "TEAM state championship trophy".  But rather in recognition of the coach for  prepared the most individuals to preform well over a tough two days of competition.  Not sure that trophy is so disrespectful to the IHSAA that they would hold a such vindetta against the coaches association that would result in them wanting to eliminate team state all together. 

 

Its much more realistic to think they want to cut teams state because

1. The economy is tough and believe budget cuts mean you have to cut corners in all sports

2. Budget cuts mean less IHSAA workers help organize everything involved in the sports so consolidate/simplify in some areas makes it easier on them

3. A stagnant growth in attendence and a stagnant growth in wrestling probably has cause the IHSAA place less emphasis on this event and shift the funds to help in other areas/sports that they believe may get a boost in attendence and growth as a sport from it.

 

Though we don't always help our improve our cause as a group.  Much of this may have more to do with the current state of the economy and IHSAA than it does something the wrestling community has done to upset or disrespect the IHSAA.  In the scheme of things any time a stuggle occurs and tough decisions need to be made lower teir sports like wrestling will be the first to take a hit because of its status in Indiana compared to other IHSAA sponsored sports.  I'm sure we are not the only sport that has or is currently taking some hits from the IHSAA.  We will have to prove it worth it financially and sport growth wise to keep team state. Because just saying its good for the sport, it helps a few teams get community recognition, and it shows a true team champion is not motivation enough for the IHSAA reguardless of what they say their group actually is suppose to stand for.

 

How is it not considered a team award?  Does the plaque have a team name on it?  You stated in your post that it is awarded to a SCHOOL.  It's awarded to a TEAM and is calculated the exact same way the TEAM championship used to be done.  If it walks like and duck and talks like a duck, to the IHSAA it is a duck.  So in every way, shape and form it is a TEAM award.

 

The coaches trophy is just one of many reasons the IHSAA board does not seem to listen to the recommendations of coach's association.  Blame the economy, Obama, or bigfoot all you want but as Coach Snyder and Tonte have already stated, it comes down to the coaches getting their house in order first.

 

The IHSAA just made the decision to class the soccer tournament series.  I doubt the state of the economy played into their decision.

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Just some things to think about.....

 

Lowell won the Coaches Trophy in 2000.

Lowell has never won a Team Regional Title in the entire existence of the school.

 

This year we were 8th in the Coaches Trophy standings.

We lost 11 dual meets this year.

Of the teams 11 different teams we lost to, 1 placed ahead of us in the standings, 5 placed behind us in the standings, and 5 scored no points at the state tournament.

 

Is this really how we want our team champion to be crowned?

 

I am not on here bashing my school.  I am on here to try to show some data of why we need the team tournament!  I am in the same boat as Coach Snyder.  Eliminating the team tournament would make my life much easier in the next five years, but I don't want that.  We talk every day in our room about winning a team title and what we need to do to get to that point. 

 

I came up in a 3A school most of you have never heard of where team wasn't important nor stressed.  It never mattered how we did team wise, just that the few of us who worked hard at it did well.  I then was blessed to get to work with Coach McCormick for 5 years and see how important team really was.  Sure, we came up short to Bellmont in the regional each and every year, but that still didn't mean that we gave up on our goals.  I have taken that to my team now and our numbers are increasing every year because of it. 

 

I hope we can find an answer tomorrow to this, I fear it is too late, but I am on board with whatever we have to do to save team state. 

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If the IHSAA does cut the Team State tournament and just decide on points in the individual state tournament:

What is all of the criteria if it comes down to a tie?

 

say that wrestler A from Pike wins a 1-0 match over wrestler B from Speedway in the finals

then wrestler C from speedway beats wrestler D from Pike 1-0 in the finals at a different weight

 

i know that it is highly unlikely to tie but everyone knows that in this sport ANYTHING can happen.

 

 

I feel like Team State would motivate the whole team and not the few talented individuals that make it to conseco. If IHSAA does cut team state, then it all rides on 5 or 6 individuals instead of 14. Sure not all 14 on your team maybe great but at team state if you are going up against a state champ and you only get majored instead of pinned that helps the team out a ton. But if its all individual then it would put more pressure on the kids that are trying to excel individually to help out the team. It used to be all done individually but wasnt that not working? Why did the IHSAA make  a Team State series anyway if they were just going to change it back? Who are we kidding, everyone knows that the IHSAA looks over wrestling and always has. But whose to say that they wont keep trying to ruin the sport. Everyone knows that indiana is not wrestling-appealed, but thats honestly just the opinion of the IHSAA board. Either way with team state or without team state the IHSAA is going to make money. I personally don't understand why they would try and cut out a huge peice of indiana wrestling. Honestly coaches, which one would you want more,  A team state champion team or a coaches trophy because ik that my coaches dont care about their accomplishments. They care about creating a team, a family if you will, of champions.

 

Just my 2 cents

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I think Coach Tonte has a great idea here.  All of us should make an effort to get as many people down to Team State as possible.  Bring your wrestling team, wrestling coaches, wrestling fans etc.  It truly is an awesome experience, whether your team is there or not.  Let's get Center Grove to max capacity!!!!

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I just heard this past weekend of the end of team state after this season and have read all the threads over the last few days, trying to come up with a solution. As we all know IHSAA is not going to give anything without getting something in return, therefore maybe something along the following, using next season?s scheduled dates would be a possibility.

 

Note: Individual tournament would remain the same.

 

1. First drop a tournament from the season schedule, opening the date of January 21, 2012 for ?Team Sectionals?, in Class 1A, 2A, 3A & 4A. These sectionals like all other sectionals in other team sports would be blind draws and bracketed.

- Class 1A ? Bottom 72 Schools

Eight - 9 team sectionals

- Class 2A ? 80 Schools

Eight ? 10 Team Sectionals

- Class 3A ? 80 Schools

Eight ? 10 Team Sectionals

- Class 4A ? 78

Six ? 10 team sectionals and Two ? 9 team sectionals

 

2. Wednesday 2/1/2012 ?Team Regionals? - Four Sites

- Site 1 ? Four 1A Teams & Four 2A Teams

- Site 2 ? Four 1A Teams & Four 2A Teams

- Site 3 ? Four 3A Teams & Four 4A Teams

- Site 4 ? Four 3A Teams & Four 4A Teams

 

Two mats ? two same class matches on each mat, winners move on to ?Team State?

 

3. Saturday 2/28/2012 ?Team State? ? One Site ? Four Teams each Class

 

Then if you really want to have some fun, bracket the four champs to determine the best ?TEAM? champion in the State of Indiana.

 

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I think Coach Tonte has a great idea here.  All of us should make an effort to get as many people down to Team State as possible.  Bring your wrestling team, wrestling coaches, wrestling fans etc.  It truly is an awesome experience, whether your team is there or not.  Let's get Center Grove to max capacity!!!!

 

I agree , everyone on this board needs to make a special effort to attend Team State and bring a friend or two .

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Darrick... and others,

My comments are exactly what I have been told over the years in respect to class wrestling.  When I present my stance on the issue, I routinely get comments about it ruining wrestling, not having a true champion and even(my personal favorite) the "I won't attend if there are classes."  All of a sudden though there is this swelling of support if that means we save the team series.  To me it is very odd that we have all these new supporters of a team class system if that means we save the team series.

 

Good teams are built from good individuals, in the case of Garrett, the program was built from having some good individuals first.  Eight years ago there were seven kids on the squad and the coaching staff built a 20-1, conference championship team from those seven wrestlers in two years.  They filled in the pieces around them to make one heck of a team. 

 

In order to grow wrestling in this state, it must first take place at the individual level.  More teams have success at the individual level than the team level, therefore if more teams have great individual accomplishments the better for the sport.  If we are truly concerned about the sport at all levels, we need to get more teams with successful individuals, then the successful teams will follow. 

 

I love the team series, but currently it has very little affect on me and my team.  We strive to have success in it, but that is the extent of it.  We will continue to build our team around great individuals and hope that we get the supporting cast to make a run at the team state title.   

Instead of getting your cyber feelings hurt, why don't you look at this as a positive? Maybe all of those years of posting about class wrestling has influenced people on these boards. Quit making all of the back handed, sarcastic remarks. It doesn't reflect positively on you as a coach or your program.

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After spending the past month or so in Ohio I have one observation that seems to be lacking in Indiana. Pride in where you're from. Because of the class system many schools send individuals to state and many more schools have championship teams at some point in time. There's a great deal of pride in the school and the community when that happens. That builds interest and makes them worker harder to be the next "1987 Team Champs." Say what you will about the class system, but they have a lot more pride in themselves, their schools, and their communities than us. Argue how you want, but how many AA and champs do they have nationally? How heavily are they recruited? How many small, dot on the map towns are proud of their team because they have the opportunity to get some attention for placing kids at state?

 

This is just an observation, someone I'm sure will find something to complain about and argue with, but just think about how much pride in your towns you see.

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Instead of getting your cyber feelings hurt, why don't you look at this as a positive? Maybe all of those years of posting about class wrestling has influenced people on these boards. Quit making all of the back handed, sarcastic remarks. It doesn't reflect positively on you as a coach or your program.

 

I'm guessing Y2 is beyond the point where he gets his feelings hurt on a message board.  And if you want to judge a guy or a program based on some sarcastic message board posts, that is your perogative.  However it would be a narrow minded and incomplete judgement.

 

Maybe the last 6-8 years of class warfare on the message boards have influenced some but I would be naive to think that the current crop of coaches supporting a multiclass team state tournament are doing so because Y2 has convinced them that is the way to go.

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This is a REALLY long thread so I am only comenting on Coach Snider's first post. Coach you  are absolutly right we NEED team state and the part where you stated that you would have won the individual title 4 out of the 5 last years is a perfect example to make that point. I know Mishawaka was beaten by MD in one of those years and if  Coach Snider would rather lose to MD in the teamstate finals rather than call himself a champ because he had more points scored at the individual finals that to me says a lot but the points about the average guy in the room says even more!

Good post Coach, I hope we don't lose this fight!

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But, you have to remember, that a state championship won by tournament scoring in the individual tournament, in no way represents the best wrestling TEAM in the state.  I believe that it would also lead to the decline in wrestling participation.

 

Is there an outcry at the collegiate level to go to some sort of dual format after the NCAA's to crown a true team champion?

 

Do you think that's part of the problem?  The IHSAA sees the NCAA crowning a team champion based on the results of the individual tournament?

 

Also, isn't tournament scoring how teams win Conference Tournaments and Sectional Titles?  Is this going to change as well?

 

 

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