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Pairings at State


H1N1

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This is not a complaint!!! The workers running pairings at fs & gr state did just fine.  Thanks for working.

 

My questions is can we seed state?  Or at least coming up with some basic rules.  Can't we mark returning state champs or runners-up and seperate them?  I saw a couple weigts where dudes placed high that weren't that good.  But then really good guys got the 'draw of death' and didn't place or placed real low. 

 

If you have like 10 guys in your class, you shouldn't have to wrestle the number 1 and 2 place guys in the first two rounds imop.  You could be the third best dude and out of the tourny immediately.  That's part of the reason that line bracketing helps vs. vertical brackets cause the best wrestlers stay on the winners side but other guys still have a chance to avoid the 'double draw of death' and fight back to third place.

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To be the best you have to beat the best...I dont see it ever being possible for this to happen at the state tourney...to try and do seeding instead of pairings would take FOREVER. Dont get me wrong it would be awesome if it could happen, but as any coach that has sat through a seeding meeting before, it is a lot to go through and that is only for 14 weight classes in one age group. It would be a nightmare to do it for all of them. Some classes have 30 kids in them sometimes and that is a lot to pick through for seeding.

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This is not a complaint!!! The workers running pairings at fs & gr state did just fine.  Thanks for working.

 

My questions is can we seed state?  Or at least coming up with some basic rules.  Can't we mark returning state champs or runners-up and seperate them?  I saw a couple weigts where dudes placed high that weren't that good.  But then really good guys got the 'draw of death' and didn't place or placed real low. 

 

If you have like 10 guys in your class, you shouldn't have to wrestle the number 1 and 2 place guys in the first two rounds imop.  You could be the third best dude and out of the tourny immediately.  That's part of the reason that line bracketing helps vs. vertical brackets cause the best wrestlers stay on the winners side but other guys still have a chance to avoid the 'double draw of death' and fight back to third place.

 

The primary advantage I've heard for vertical bracketing as that you will get a true second placer and I believe this to be true.  The problem with vertical bracketing is that once you're out of it for 1st thru 3rd, you don't get any more matches whereas in line bracketing you'd get more wrestleback opportunities which I think is important.  The only way in line bracketing that you'd get a true second placer is to have the runner-up wrestle the 3rd place guy if they hadn't met previously and that is a tough thing to ask of the runner up.  "Hey kid, you made it to the championship match, you just lost and are extremely disappointed.  Guess what, you've got another match becasue we're not sure you're the real runner-up!"  Ouch!

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I don't think we could seed state... BUT we could separate the best wrestlers at FS/GR state in the bracket.  The ISWA must have the returning All-Americans, state champs and runner ups in a database.  All we need to do is flag them in that database so that they are several lines apart on the wall chart.

 

Our club had a similar experience to H1N1.  We had two kids in FS who drew the state champ and runner up from last year in the first and second round.  One kid didn't place and the other placed 8th, while a bunch of wrestlers they defeated placed quite high.  To add insult to injury, one of these kids (who was a HS semi-state qualifier) drew the same state champ and runner up in the first and second round AGAIN in Greco.

 

You can't devise a perfect system... just not possible...  BUT we could make it better.

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I take off my hat to all the folks who worked at state like I did.  The pairings folks, table workers and refs.  There were more refs at state this year then any year I had ever seen.  That made things much better for people like me working tables and faster for the kids.

 

Along the lines of pairings, has the ISWA leadership ever discussed going to matside pairings at FS/GR State?  I guess if we had straight line bracketing, that would be possible.  But not with vertical bracketing.

 

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This discussion reminded me of something.  Back in the 1990s we used to separate wrestlers into two pools at FS/GR State (if there was a really large group).  Then that went away and we had everyone tossed into one pool/bracket.

 

However, currently at nationals and I think regionals, they separate weights with 6+ kids into two pools.  I guess they divide returning All-Americans into the different pools, but I that is just a guess.

 

Honestly, I'm fine with everyone being in one pool.  That is, if we can separate the best kids and make sure kids don't wrestle the champ and runner up back-to-back.  But does anyone know why we used to have two pools at State, but now only have one pool at State, but then have two pools at nationals?

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I figured the only way to easily seperate kids would be based on a numbering system.  Kids would accumulate point based their placements at local tournament.  At the state tournament you would just organzed the brackets based on the points each kid recieved.  Those with the higher points would have lower point opponents the first few rounds.  This obviously is not a full proof method but it would seperate those who consistantly placed high in local ISWA events which in many cases the wrestler had at least some talent.  It would also slightly rewards those who participates multiple times instead of just going to one in order to qualify for state.  Other than that I see no fair way to seed or seperate a bracket fairly and quickly.  As mentioned above it would take way to much time and effert to have a group try and sit down and seed out the event based on any other criteria. 

 

I guess you could also add points to the total based on a kids previous year placement though that would take much more work to accomplish.  Plus kids jumping up a division would be given an advantage even though they placed in a younger group the previous year.

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With vertical pairing there is really no way to separate people.  All the match-ups after the second round are basically random based on who has wrestled who and who is out of the tournament.  Even with line bracketing you could have the best three wrestlers on the same side of the bracket and they go 1-3-5 in the tournament.  I have seen this a few times at folkstyle state.

 

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i don't want to sound like a nagger, but at Greco State we had Me Kirk and Milton all wrestling each other dang near in a row. Not taking away from the other guys, but we were prolly the betters on the weight class.....although i should have made 145.....weighing in at 146 XD......but just saying haha. :D ;D

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I saw it happen again this weekend.  In a couple different weights I saw the best dudes wrestle each other right away.  Then like the third best guy got 7th place while some bad wrestlers got 3rd place.  I know I'm not some pairings genius.  I just hope somebody smart can figure out away to fix the problem.

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