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ATTENTION!!!! New Qualifying procedures for Cadet/Junior Duals


Cale Hoover

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Cadet/Junior National Duals

Selection Criteria

2010

 

To Attend the Camp, you must be invited.  Automatic Camp Invites include:

1. 1st and 2nd place at ISWA Freestyle and Greco State

2. Returning All-Americans

3. Duals All-Tournament Selections from previous years

4. FILA National Place Winners (1st-6th)

5. Regional Place Winners (1st -4th)

 

Additional Camp Invitations based on space and weight class needs:

6. Petitions

7. 3rd-6th at ISWA Freestyle & Greco State Finals

 

Challenge Tournament:

1. Wrestlers must weigh-in at the beginning of camp and declare possible weight classes.  At the end of the 2nd day, all wrestlers must declare their specific weight class for the challenge tournament.  Cadets will get a 3 lb allowance and Juniors will get a 5 lb allowance.

2. The format of the challenge tournament will be similar to the US World and Olympic Team Trials.  If the state champ stays at the same weight, he is automatically in the finals and must be beaten twice.  All other wrestlers at that weight will compete in a tournament to see who will face the state champ.

 

Camp and Trip Details

 

Cost: $200 for camp

 

Wrestlers who earn a spot on the team or who are selected to as alternates will have their camp fee applied as part of the trip cost.

 

All wrestlers attending the camp must be willing and able to go on the trip, and pay the additional cost to cover part of the added expenses (bus, lodging, equipment, etc.)

 

Wrestlers must weigh-in at the beginning of camp and declare possible weight classes.  At the end of the 2nd day, all wrestlers must declare their specific weight class for the challenge tournament.  Cadets will get a 3-pound allowance and Juniors a 5-pound allowance.

 

Challenge Tournament

 

The format will be similar to the US World and Olympic Team Trials.  If the state champ stays at the same weight, he is automatically in the finals and must be beaten twice.  All other wrestlers at that weight will compete in a tournament to see who will face the state champ.

 

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Couple questions

 

Re: Returning All-Americans

1. Does this only allude to athletes in that particular style, greco or freestyle or does that mean a kid that placed at folkstyle nationals can come?

2. Does this only allude to All-Americans from the 2009 season or are previous seasons included?

 

 

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Returning All-Americans:  any wreslter who has placed in the top 8 at Cadet/Junior Nationals at any point in time.  It will not matter which style.  For example, if you are a Greco All-American you are invited to camp and can challenge for both styles.

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1.  The petition process will work the same as it has in the past for Cadet/Junior Nationals.  Wrestlers who are not able to compete at the state finals or do not qualify will need to write a letter to the Cadet Director (Jake Harreld) or Junior Director (Cale Hoover) requesting a spot in the camp.  The two directors along with the team leaders for the trip will meet and decide on each petition.

 

2.  Some wrestlers are already qualified for the camp based on past results, the rest will be qualifying the next few weeks.  Any others interested should contake Jake Harreld or myself so we can make preparations.

 

 

**** The goal of this qualifying camp is to continue to have a fair process in determining who will represent Team Indiana but also provide the participants and team leaders more flexibility in creating the best team possible.  We would be happy to hear your feedback as we will continue working to be progressive and make improvements to our programs.

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  • 2 weeks later...

The ISWA has always wanted to create programs that were fair to all athletes.  This objective is something that we want to protect.  Our previous system qualified wrestlers for all duals teams based on their placement at Freestyle and Greco-Roman state finals.  It did not account for the possibility of the two best wrestlers in the state being in the same weight class.  In those cases we were not allowed to use the 2nd place finisher on our duals teams.  The goal of this new format is to maintain a fair system, but provide more flexibility for athletes and coaches to put together the best team possible under the rules. 

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I guess where I stand, I'm againt this new process.

 

1. It seems like we already take so much time of the kids up, now were asking for more.

2. A kid that wins the triple crown at his weight, but isn't able to make the camp and challenge tournament, doesn't represent Indiana? He makes three other tourneys lets say, but can't make this one and he's out?

3. The camp for Cadets runs right up to their duals. What if the winner gets a minor or major injury? A nagging knee and now he doesn't fair as well at the duals that he spends so much money on.

4. A wrestler doesn't make the team and he is out the $200? Sounds like were trying to develop a fundraiser for the ISWA?

5. If you want more latitude in selecting the team, couldn't we just say win it and you are on the team. If the champ doesn't decide to go a select board will review all applicants and determine the most qualified wrestler? I'm sorry, best 2 wrestlers in the state and the runner-up still doesn't deserve to go over another weight class champion.

6. I'm fully aware this is how we select our Olympic and World Teams. It just seems that you have taken a flawed system and replaced it with a flawed system.

 

As always, I wish all our Indiana kids well. Once again, it just appears to me that we are bringing politics, additional money, and more wear and tear on the kids. Good luck!

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In the states of Minnesota and Wisconsin its teams are hand picked.  Regardless of where you placed and at what weight you were at if the 3 best kids in the state are at 152 then the coaches will find a way to get 1 to 145 the other at 152 and the third at 160.  I agree with Cale for Indiana to be competitive at the duals the leaders can't have their hands tied due to placements of wrestlers.

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1.  Just like the rest of the trips, camp is mandatory.  If you do not come you do not go on the trip.  This is consistent with the policy we have always used.

 

2.  We have the camp right before the trip so training can be monitored to ensure the athletes are prepared.

 

3.  The wrestlers aren't out $200.  They just had the opportunity to train with the best wrestlers in the state under the eye of multiple college coaches from around the state.  This is a great price in comparsion to what is being paid to attend other camps.

 

4.  We are no where near having a committe select the team.  I would be more than happy to, but I do not think everyone in the wrestling community would be happy with my selections!

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It all comes down to what our goal of this trip is.

A: To have a competitive team that challenges for the top spot every year.

B: To have a trip where kids get experience wrestling the best in the nation.

 

If B is our goal, then keep it strictly to how you place at state.  If A is the goal, invite the best and figure a way to get the best wrestlers into the line-up.

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If they truly want to go on the trip, then they must earn an invitation to the camp.  So their are only 3 chances left to earn an invitation; freestyle state, greco state, and the Central Regional. 

 

Honestly, if wrestlers choose not to participate at state finals because  of this, I am not sure we would want them on the team anyway.  The goal is to create a fair system that will allow team leaders to assemble the best team we possibly can.  We felt it was time for a change and so it was made.  We will evaluate the system after this year and make changed we think are necessary.

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There was a lot of discussion about the process of the selection of our duals' teams and everyone agreed that there isn't a prefect way to select the teams.  There is unlimited scenarios that we can make up where something isn't 'fair'.  Is a chance that a triple crown winner gets beat in a wrestle-off 2 out of 3?  Yes that is a chance, but I'm not sure statistically how often that will/could happen.  What about the year Andrew Howe, Cooper Samuels, Kyle Ulrey showed up at Junior State in the same weight.  Should only one of them be allowed on our duals team?  What about Tsirtsis and Wright?  They finished 1st and 3rd in the country, but because they were the same weight we could only take one on our duals teams? That was the case those years.  I think the scenario of outstanding individuals in the same weight will happen more than a triple crown winner losing a wrestle off 2 of 3.

 

I think in 2007 that IN had more Cadet/Junior National All-Americans than they've ever had in one year.  We have had one dual team make the championship pool of national duals (schoolboy, cadet, or junior) since 2006 and it was Greco Roman Cadet Nationals and they got 8th...or last in the championship pool.  We thought something needed to change.

 

The discussion I brought up at a board meeting was similar to what Joe just said.  Does Indiana want to use the fairest way to make a team, or use a way to make the most competitive team. 

 

The fairest way to make the team would be to have ISWA State determine the team.  Once a kid weighed in for state, he couldn't change to make the duals team.  Imagine if high schools had to pick their lineup that way..  There's not an high school coach around that would say to a kid, "you lost your wrestle off at 119, so can't wrestle varsity even though you might be able to beat the 112 or 125."

 

If we wanted to make the most competitive team then I think we should form a comittee to pick a team.  That's how the teams that have the most success do it.  I know that for schoolboy duals that Minnesota, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin hand pick their own team.  I asked the MN coach at Flonationals about their duals selection and he said that they didn't want their kids getting down to weight that early before the duals tourney.  (I also understand that there are a lot of other factors besides dual selection that makes PA, MN, an OK better duals teams than ours.)

 

We think the IWSA tried to  come up with a way that is somewhere in the middle.  The ISWA State tourney gives you the ultimate leg up to make the duals team (he must be beat 2 out of 3 to lose his spot) and camp gives IN a chance to move guys around to give us an opportunity to compete with the best. 

 

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Please review my above unedited comments!

 

I never said triple crown winner loses 2 out of 3. I said is unable to make the camp and challenge tournament. But was able to make the three state tournaments, thus proving he is the best or at least, most consistent at that weight. Just a point to be made. Also, please see where I made the recommendation for a board to select the team. As far as camp being mandatory, I know, in certain situations, we have allowed kids to go on the trip that had already committed during a date or dates of the camp. Now let me get the Andrew Howe, Cooper Samuels, Kyle Ulrey scenario right.........when they show up for camp, you will instruct Kyle to cut to 152 and Cooper to go 171 during the challenge tourney? So in essence, you have already picked who you think is the best team and will coach accordingly? How will the 152lb state champ and 171lb state champ be with this? Anyway, you're Howe, Samuels, and Ulrey and Wright, Tsirtsis scenarios are really not as often as were implying here.

 

It goes back to the fact that I too, want to see Indiana do better at National Duals. I like the idea of win state and you're in, turn the spot down and the committee reserves the right to fill the spot.

 

I will support any decisions made. I'm certain some of these issues were brought up in the discussion. I just wanted to hear the responses to them.

 

Good luck to all.

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Junio 119 last year

1st Place - Camden Eppert of Anderson

2nd Place - Brandon Nelsen of Indianapolis

3rd Place - Paul Beck of Unattached

4th Place - Brenden Campbell of Unattached

 

Maybe one could have gone down to 112 and one up to 125.  Those are four of the best kids in the state in all weight classes.

 

A couple other examples:

Junior - 135

1st Place - Cashe` Quiroga of Indianapolis

2nd Place - D`Marcus Spencer of Indianapolis

 

Both are better than the top guy at 140lbs.

 

Junior - 189 Results

1st Place - Aaron Stevenson of Trafalgar

2nd Place - Braden Atwood of Delphi

3rd Place - Michael Johnson-Jones of Indianapolis

4th Place - Mark Myers of Crown Point

 

Another example of where someone could have dropped or gone up

 

Junior - 160 Results

1st Place - Bryant Whitaker of muncie

2nd Place - Cameron Vlahos of Battle Ground

3rd Place - Anthony Bill of Unattached

4th Place - Mitchell Judkins of speedway

5th Place - Zac McCray of Unattached

6th Place - Sam Bennett of Anderson

 

Lots of good wrestlers here that might have wanted the opportunity to drop a weight class or re-challenge for the spot.

 

Junior - 145 Results

1st Place - Jacob Tonte of Indianapolis

2nd Place - Jeremiah Oliver of Unattached

3rd Place - Bryce Schendel of Garrett

4th Place - Matt Milton of Bargersville

 

Another place where the top three or four were very close to the top kids at 152 and 140.

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All of these examples are in the Junior division. In addition, not quite fair as you did not list the state champ above and below. Nor would it be fair to assume they would win that match anyway. You did bring up some great names, and I think we are back to square one, they changed the procedure and that's how it will go. I look forward to us being top 8 in the nation on both dual teams as a result. Again, good luck to all this weekend.

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The intent of the idea is good, however there is much to consider. Potential abuse of those who will make these team rosters decisions for personal, political and/or financial gain. Trying to get the best team together to represet Indiana is great but taking the matter from a black and white scenario of champion goes to a subjective matter based on opinions of some who may benefit from their decisions is not good. With another wrestling organization in Indiana competing with ISWA we probably want to make sure everything is transparent and honest. People with nothing to gain and with the interest of Indiana wrestling only, should make these decisions. 

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I voted to keep the criteria the same 2 years ago and now I'm all for handpicked teams. An ISWA selection commitee can be put together with rep's from all the regions and the appropriate board members. I doubt that the Indiana Wrestling Community would allow obvious signs of abuse.

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This new procedure wasn't just thrown together quickly.  It's been years in the making, including talking with many other states' coaches on how they put together their teams.  This includes some of the better ideas out there while still keeping it fair for the wrestlers.  The Indiana coaches who have been involved with these 2 trips have discussed this at length, made proposals to the ISWA board, had many of those proposals voted down, and made changes to improve it to get us to this process that was approved unanimously by the ISWA board.

 

throwforfive,

- As Cale explained, our 2-3 day team camp has always been mandatory.  Nothing has changed with that.  In the past, if a wrestler couldn't make it to the camp, then he wasn't on the team.  Plus, that camp was always immediately before leaving for the duals.  Now cadets get a day's rest and juniors even more rest.

- Wrestlers still have to earn their spot on the team.  There is no "hand-picking" going on.  If a state champ or triple crown winner loses 2 in a row (winning state is considered his first win, so he only has to win one match at camp), then he wasn't really the best in that weight class for the state.  This makes our state's team stronger.

- We have tried to make this camp very much worth the $200, even if a wrestler doesn't end up making the team.  With the state's top talent as practice partners and competitors along with many of Indiana's colleges there personally working with the wrestlers, I think it is definitely worth the price.  If it all works out, then the individual trip cost will go down as well, which is a huge bonus in today's economic times.

 

In the past few years, we haven't been able to field our best possible team because some guys aren't able to go to state (i.e., prom) and the guys who do don't always compete at the right weight (i.e., prom again).  There is not much communication about what weights certain guys are competing at for state.  Sometimes a stud's own coach isn't sure what weight they'll make.  The example Ed Pendoski brought up with Howe, Samuels, and Ulrey shows all of this.  Howe had prom the night before state so he didn't cut any weight.  He beats two of our best wrestlers and asks if he can drop a weight for duals.  That state champ, who never even qualified for high school state, wanted the spot so Howe couldn't drop.  This new procedure eliminates that possibility.

 

Imagine if Mishawaka's wrestlers had to weigh-in at the beginning of the season without being able to talk with each other about what weights they were going.  And that weigh-in locked them into the spot without any chance to make adjustments according to where the other studs are going.  Mishawaka's team would not be nearly as strong because some of their best wrestlers would not have a chance to make the line-up while wrestlers they could beat would.  That is exactly what we've been trying to do with our national duals teams.

 

Mr. Morgan,

- I'm not sure where you see "potential abuse" with this system.  Ultimately, it is the wrestlers who will decide the team.  The ISWA has clearly layed out the camp invitation criteria and challenge tournament format.  It is objective, not subjective.  At camp, the wrestlers can make their own adjustments to give themselves the best possible chance to make the team.

- All of Indiana's national team coaches are volunteers, so none of us have anything to gain.  You can even rule out trying to "manipulate the line-up" to one's own wrestlers on the team for the juniors this year.  Becuase of moratorium, none of the junior dual coaches will be able to have their own wrestlers on the team.

 

Jake Harreld

ISWA Cadet Director

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Imagine if Mishawaka's wrestlers had to weigh-in at the beginning of the season without being able to talk with each other about what weights they were going.  And that weigh-in locked them into the spot without any chance to make adjustments according to where the other studs are going.  Mishawaka's team would not be nearly as strong because some of their best wrestlers would not have a chance to make the line-up while wrestlers they could beat would.  That is exactly what we've been trying to do with our national duals teams.

 

 

I am completely for the new duals team procedures, but I do not think the above rationale fits.  It is not as if these wrestlers had to go the same weight all summer long and all "off season: long.  They can change their weights every weekend if they want to change.  I do think that a wrestler shouldnt be able to drop or go up more than one weight class though.

 

I hope this gets more of our top level wrestlers going to the duals.   

 

I also hope that the ISWA gives this format a few years to develop before it is judged.

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