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Y2 and Karl's class wrestling myths


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Y2 your statistics were wrong to use in a class wrestling arguement.  Also I have proven you wrong when you say there is a disadvantage when kids wrestle multiple sports.  I can tell you right now McCrays biggest asset he had as a wrestler was his football weights.  Without his strength he is an good but not great wrestler.  He sure as he#$ didn't get that way doing pushups in the wrestling room. 

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Y2 - you always seem to take the high ground and I respect your ability to stay out of the name calling during arguments.  I disagree with you about class wrestling, but think we can have a reasonable discussion on recruiting.  D1 recruits based on national success - we agree on that.  D2 and D3 recruits on state placement - I would even give you that.  But if a kid wants to wrestle at a D2 or D3 school, wouldn't they get a real shot at doing so just by contacting the coach and saying they want to wrestle there?  I think it would be better to choose the right school at that level based on academic reasons anyway and then if they have a program and you think you can compete tell them you want to wrestle for them.  I hope that is why even some of the D1 wrestlers are choosing the school they attend.  There probably isn't enough scholarship money involved to offset out of state tuition to a D1 school to justify it unless you have placed very high at nationals and now we are talking about the exception rather than the rule.  I guess my argument is that it doesn't matter much if you are recruited or not to a D2 or D3 school.  You will either make the team / wrestle college varsity or you won't based on ability - it is not going to matter if you placed at state in either a class or true champ state system.

 

I read an earlier post that you think it will increase interest.  I don't think that is really arguable since it hasn't happened.  You have your opinion and it might be valid.  I think as a spectator, it would decrease my interest personally unless my school were going to state.  What I think we have seen at the current team state is a handful of teams that have a chance to make it with very little turn over from year to year.  Would that not happen in the small school division?  It seems like it could increase the interest at a few more schools in the state, but probably not many.  I think having the great spectator turnout in the current system where dads take their kids to see a true state champion achieve that goal in front of thousands under the lights is the better way to go personally.  Just my thought.

 

Love your site.  Thanks for the work that goes into it.

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Then why does South Dakota have as many All-Americans as Indiana since 1961 or Colorado or Wisconsin or Washington or Oregon?  Tell me why those states have produced more top tier wrestlers than Indiana in the past 48 years.  If you don't like the pre 1960 data, then throw it out and look at the 1961 to present data and tell me why Indiana is the 18th best state, when a single class system is so great. 

 

well the main reason for this is because many of these states have had folkstyle for many years! Big tsirtsis esco Howe hump n the rest of those studs were the baby boomers of Indiana folkstlye wrestling. Tsirtsis n esco were wrestling folkstyle in Illinois Years before Indiana started hosting folkstlye. Think about it might not even be the 10th year of kids folkstlye state! Freestle is great but being able to mat wrestle is what makes you a champion.

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Y2 - you always seem to take the high ground and I respect your ability to stay out of the name calling during arguments.  I disagree with you about class wrestling, but think we can have a reasonable discussion on recruiting.  D1 recruits based on national success - we agree on that.  D2 and D3 recruits on state placement - I would even give you that.  But if a kid wants to wrestle at a D2 or D3 school, wouldn't they get a real shot at doing so just by contacting the coach and saying they want to wrestle there?  I think it would be better to choose the right school at that level based on academic reasons anyway and then if they have a program and you think you can compete tell them you want to wrestle for them.  I hope that is why even some of the D1 wrestlers are choosing the school they attend.  There probably isn't enough scholarship money involved to offset out of state tuition to a D1 school to justify it unless you have placed very high at nationals and now we are talking about the exception rather than the rule.  I guess my argument is that it doesn't matter much if you are recruited or not to a D2 or D3 school.  You will either make the team / wrestle college varsity or you won't based on ability - it is not going to matter if you placed at state in either a class or true champ state system.

 

I read an earlier post that you think it will increase interest.  I don't think that is really arguable since it hasn't happened.  You have your opinion and it might be valid.  I think as a spectator, it would decrease my interest personally unless my school were going to state.  What I think we have seen at the current team state is a handful of teams that have a chance to make it with very little turn over from year to year.  Would that not happen in the small school division?  It seems like it could increase the interest at a few more schools in the state, but probably not many.  I think having the great spectator turnout in the current system where dads take their kids to see a true state champion achieve that goal in front of thousands under the lights is the better way to go personally.  Just my thought.

 

Love your site.  Thanks for the work that goes into it.

 

Contacting a DII or DIII program is definately a way to get on a smaller college's radar.  But let's be honest, how many 15 year old kids are thinking about college and the possibility of wrestling in college to take the time to contact these coaches.  A classed state tournament would be a one stop recruitment fair where kids would get seen and contacted earlier in their careers about the possibility of wrestling in college.  Once a college contacts a kid, that kids is more likely to start thinking about options hopefully as a sophomore or junior rather than as a senior where they are hampered by both time and the amount of options.  I have seen many kids in multiple sports make poor decisions because they were not recruited until late in the process.

 

I agree there would be powerful schools in a classed system like their are in other sports but schools can realistically build a program to compete in classed system, even if it just competing for a sectional crown.  The amount of small schools that can compete for post season hardware no is tiny.  Sectional titles do wonders for the health of sports in small schools.  I have seen it first hand in two different sports and two different small schools.

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Most  wrestlers play several sports while in high school. I know over half of my wrestling team at Crown Point were multi-sport athletes. Most of us did football and wrestling. but then there were the few that played football, wrestled, ran track or played baseball. I feel the argument about smaller schools having more multi sport athletes is false nowadays.

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If we had class wrestling people on this board would be flooding it with "Well so and so is the real Champ". For example," Well Brooks is the real 103 Champ, he would kill Phillips". Cody had his chance, just like any other small school athlete, to sit on the top PERIOD.

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Most  wrestlers play several sports while in high school. I know over half of my wrestling team at Crown Point were multi-sport athletes. Most of us did football and wrestling. but then there were the few that played football, wrestled, ran track or played baseball. I feel the argument about smaller schools having more multi sport athletes is false nowadays.

 

So you are saying almost half the wrestlers at Crown point only compete in wrestling?  There are no decent small school athletic departments that can survive with those percentages.  You may feel the argument is false but I am positive it is true.

 

The real issue at small schools is spring sports.  Spring sports especially would die at small schools if all the wrestlers did not participate in a spring sport.

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If we had class wrestling people on this board would be flooding it with "Well so and so is the real Champ". For example," Well Brooks is the real 103 Champ, he would kill Phillips". Cody had his chance, just like any other small school athlete, to sit on the top PERIOD.

 

Does this happen on the message boards in Ohio or Illinois?

 

http://yappi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=19 - Ohio forum

 

http://www.illinoismatmen.com/forum/  - Illinois forum

 

Get back to us with your findings?

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Does this happen on the message boards in Ohio or Illinois?

 

http://yappi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=19 - Ohio forum

 

http://www.illinoismatmen.com/forum/  - Illinois forum

 

Get back to us with your findings?

 

Maybe apple to oranges, but it does happens all the time in Muncie and Delaware County when it comes to volleyball.  This area will multiple state championship teams, one year this area actually won all the titles, and yes people do say who the "realchampion" is.  I dont agree with this thinking, but I have heard the discussion first hand from fans, students, parents and some of the players. 

 

Like I said, this maybe an apple to oranges comparison.......

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If we had class wrestling people on this board would be flooding it with "Well so and so is the real Champ". For example," Well Brooks is the real 103 Champ, he would kill Phillips". Cody had his chance, just like any other small school athlete, to sit on the top PERIOD.

 

My favorite counter-point....the chest thumping macho man argument.

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Y2 - you always seem to take the high ground and I respect your ability to stay out of the name calling during arguments.  I disagree with you about class wrestling, but think we can have a reasonable discussion on recruiting.  D1 recruits based on national success - we agree on that.  D2 and D3 recruits on state placement - I would even give you that.  But if a kid wants to wrestle at a D2 or D3 school, wouldn't they get a real shot at doing so just by contacting the coach and saying they want to wrestle there?  I think it would be better to choose the right school at that level based on academic reasons anyway and then if they have a program and you think you can compete tell them you want to wrestle for them.  I hope that is why even some of the D1 wrestlers are choosing the school they attend.  There probably isn't enough scholarship money involved to offset out of state tuition to a D1 school to justify it unless you have placed very high at nationals and now we are talking about the exception rather than the rule.  I guess my argument is that it doesn't matter much if you are recruited or not to a D2 or D3 school.  You will either make the team / wrestle college varsity or you won't based on ability - it is not going to matter if you placed at state in either a class or true champ state system.

That is a great idea, but in all honestly most kids and parents will not do this for whatever reason.  I know that is how I went to Findlay, but most people do not realize until it is too late that you should contact the coach and show interest first.  We are actually working on an article on this very issue about college recruiting and hopefully more coaches, kids and parents will realize that you should contact the schools that you are interested in.  Karl summed up what else I think in his response.

 

 

I read an earlier post that you think it will increase interest.  I don't think that is really arguable since it hasn't happened.  You have your opinion and it might be valid.  I think as a spectator, it would decrease my interest personally unless my school were going to state.  What I think we have seen at the current team state is a handful of teams that have a chance to make it with very little turn over from year to year.  Would that not happen in the small school division?   It seems like it could increase the interest at a few more schools in the state, but probably not many.  I think having the great spectator turnout in the current system where dads take their kids to see a true state champion achieve that goal in front of thousands under the lights is the better way to go personally.  Just my thought.

 

Love your site.  Thanks for the work that goes into it.

If there were two to four classes for the team, which I believe you are talking about there would be the same teams competing for state titles in each division each year.  The cream will rise to the top.  At the smaller classes though, there would be more turnover since smaller schools go through cycles of athletes.  Just as Sheridan and Jimtown in football.  Jimtown always contends for a sectional title, yet sometimes they have down years(for them) in which they will lose to Garrett or Fairfield or some other team.  The same goes for Sheridan, who after three titles in a row and this year had a down year because of graduating some great classes. 

 

On that same note, this is why I am for a classed individual tournament.  I feel that a classed team tournament will help some teams, like Whitko, Garrett, Delphi, etc, but really will do little help for teams that wouldn't be able to compete at that level no matter how many classes.  A classed individual state tournament would help those teams by getting more kids to regional and semi-state and possibly state.  That would help their programs build a good team while riding the success of a few individuals. 

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Maybe apple to oranges, but it does happens all the time in Muncie and Delaware County when it comes to volleyball.  This area will multiple state championship teams, one year this area actually won all the titles, and yes people do say who the "realchampion" is.  I dont agree with this thinking, but I have heard the discussion first hand from fans, students, parents and some of the players. 

 

Like I said, this maybe an apple to oranges comparison.......

 

They all play each other during the regular season and most care more about their club teams anyways.

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Well now I'm in between both. Class wrestling will bring more fans due to more kids. More scholarship oppurtunities and a lot more kids and also money for schools but no clear cut champ. Only down side for class but college and money would matter to some wrestlers and schools

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I doubt that class wrestling would bring more fans.  We might get more "homer" fans because junior qualified for small school state but we'll lose a lot of real fans who won't show up for a watered down event.

 

There's no evidence that class wrestling would produce more scholarship money for otherwise unrecognized wrestlers.  This money is pretty much only available for D1 schools that want to see national success at Fargo, etc.  D2 and D3 tend to be more walk on.  Assuming that college scouts would discover a kid at small school state that they would otherwise overlook at single-class semi-state is a stretch.  Scouts are savvy and know what they're looking for.  In a multi-class system, the scout's job of evaluating potential recruits is just made harder not easier because it's trickier to figure out if a kid has legit college potential or not.  Single class actually produces clarity.  To put it another way, a scout might look at a small school kid with a 25-5 regular season record and not be sure he is college material unless the kid qualifies for semi-state or state in single class.  In class wrestling this same 25-5 kid may not get any credit in a scout's eyes for qualifying for small school state.

 

What Indiana needs is more in-state college wrestling opportunities.  No amount of class wrestling will fix not having more open slots.

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I doubt that class wrestling would bring more fans.  We might get more "homer" fans because junior qualified for small school state but we'll lose a lot of real fans who won't show up for a watered down event.

More fans seem to be going to a watered down semi-state and I have not heard anyone complain that they won't go to a watered down semi-state.  If you are so concerned with a watered down tournament, where was the uproar when semi-state became watered down?

 

There's no evidence that class wrestling would produce more scholarship money for otherwise unrecognized wrestlers.  This money is pretty much only available for D1 schools that want to see national success at Fargo, etc.  D2 and D3 tend to be more walk on.  Assuming that college scouts would discover a kid at small school state that they would otherwise overlook at single-class semi-state is a stretch.  Scouts are savvy and know what they're looking for.  In a multi-class system, the scout's job of evaluating potential recruits is just made harder not easier because it's trickier to figure out if a kid has legit college potential or not.  Single class actually produces clarity.  To put it another way, a scout might look at a small school kid with a 25-5 regular season record and not be sure he is college material unless the kid qualifies for semi-state or state in single class.  In class wrestling this same 25-5 kid may not get any credit in a scout's eyes for qualifying for small school state.

 

What Indiana needs is more in-state college wrestling opportunities.  No amount of class wrestling will fix not having more open slots.

DII and DIII schools rely on walk-ons, but they must convince those kids to com walk on.  Very rarely does a good wrestler just go to Trine and then without the coaches knowing it show up for the first practice...very rarely meaning about never.  DII and DIII schools don't have the resources to go to all four semi-states to find recruits.  They don't have the resources to find  2 or 3 time semi-state qualifier that might be a good wrestler that just got a crap draw. 

 

Also if more kids are getting a taste of success early they will then do more to improve for the next year.  I had a club kid last year that was all gung hoe about wrestling after qualifying for the watered down semi-state.  He went to club practices, off season meets and camps because he thought he had a shot at state next year.  He had never done any offseason stuff before.  If more kids do what this kid did last year, Indiana wrestling will improve tremendously. 

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Here go my cool points! LOL

 

First off I want to start by saying I am a proponent of class wrestling.  I think most people can agree that they would like to see a classed team tournament.  Based on the argument from five years ago to now, I would imagine that the percentage of people for a class team tournament has increased dramatically.  It only makes sense.

 

The only thing holding people back on the individual side of the card is the fact that we have the coolest state tournament out of any sport.  I've been to just about every sports state finals, and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that the pageantry and excitement of our state finals is matched by none of the other tournaments.  People just don't want to lose this.  The fact of the matter is that going to a class individual tournament will most likely increase participation due to the higher amounts of success programs will have, which in turn will result in better wrestling depth overall. 

 

I am also on the side of class wrestling because I came from a small school and I have been involved with small sized schools, medium sized schools, and large schools. 

 

Advantages of large schools- More practice partners, normally better quality of coaching, and more opportunities to specialize.

 

Why would great coaches want to stay at a small school knowing that they could have more athletes that they got to see more as the year went on?

 

Why would great coaches stay at a small school when they could make more than twice as much money at a large school.  I know first hand that in one sectional there is a school where the head coach makes $2000 and has no paid assistants positions while at another school the head coach makes $6000, and has two paid positions that make $4000 and $2500.  That's a difference of $10,500 in salary money between the two schools.  Which one is most likely to get a better overall staff from top to bottom?  We all know how important having a great head coach is, but look back to your days in high school, how many of you had a great assistant head coach that spent a lot of individual time with you?  Being able to have more of these people on board is a huge help.  There are just so many more advantages at a big school than at a small school.

 

The whole argument with staying with a single class system is like saying the following in academics to the small schools:  We are going to give you the same test as we are going to give the large schools, but we are going to give you far less resources.  Your teachers do not have to be licensed in the area they are teaching and are going to be paid 1/2 as much as the large school teachers, you are only going to get half of the book, and you must take three of the tests and be successful at all of them while the large school kids only have to take one or two of the tests and be successful in one. 

 

Do you think if we treated education in small schools the way that we treat athletics in small schools people wouldn't be calling for a change?

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The whole argument with staying with a single class system is like saying the following in academics to the small schools:  We are going to give you the same test as we are going to give the large schools, but we are going to give you far less resources.  Your teachers do not have to be licensed in the area they are teaching and are going to be paid 1/2 as much as the large school teachers, you are only going to get half of the book, and you must take three of the tests and be successful at all of them while the large school kids only have to take one or two of the tests and be successful in one. 

 

Do you think if we treated education in small schools the way that we treat athletics in small schools people wouldn't be calling for a change?

 

Disagree with your analogy completely....

 

However, our school system is like that already..the haves and the have nots.  This problem however grew when we decided how we were going to fund schools because people did not like the way it was being done.  Our school systems are now worse off, but those taxpayers who were upset because they actually had to pay a full property tax instead of the 70% that the state was having them pay got their way and things were changed. 

 

You can not create something that will be percieved as fair or actually will be fair to everyone. You just get to choose the people that get hurt the worst and then try to minimize how much they get hurt.

 

Your resources argument though for small schools is starting to lose water because of the wrestling schools and training centers that are popping up all over Indiana.  These schools are balancing out the paractice partners and the trianing issues.

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The whole argument with staying with a single class system is like saying the following in academics to the small schools:  We are going to give you the same test as we are going to give the large schools, but we are going to give you far less resources.  Your teachers do not have to be licensed in the area they are teaching and are going to be paid 1/2 as much as the large school teachers, you are only going to get half of the book, and you must take three of the tests and be successful at all of them while the large school kids only have to take one or two of the tests and be successful in one.

 

KFC I do like the thought you have put into this and I am going to agree with you somewhat.  I think the state and country have tryed several of the things mentioned above to raise the education standards at schools.  THe top schools are always the top schools regaurdless of what you do to them.  THey have given resources to bad schools trying to better education, they have also punished schools with poor test scores.  They have tryed all sorts of educational programs for poor scoring schools.  Truth is the cream always rises to the top and it will be the same thing with class wrestling.  If we class the sport there will be no parody.  It hasn't worked in Ohio.  In 2 of the 3 divisions they have had the same champion at least 9 of the past ten years.  Did that make the teams in those divisions any better?  Has that done anything to promote the team side of wrestling in Ohio?  Come on people wake up.  THis doesn't fix anything it just makes for more of the same bs that class wrestling people say won't happen.  Matre Dei vs Yorktown every year sounds fun doesn't it?  On top of that its going to ruin our individual tournement.  Giving small school kids less competition.  Some small school individuals can not get the schedule to push there wrestlers.  Look at Turkey Run.  Ryan Pribble wrestled a joke of a schedule and his only competiton was in the state tournement.  If we class it there will be less oportunity for him to get the compitition he needs.

 

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Y2 and Mr. Hungus,

 

If you calculated the number of mulit sport athletes at a small school and did one at a big school, the bigger school would have more mutisport athletes. This argument might have been valid ten years ago, but mostly everyone nowadays plays another sport.

Why don't you do the study then?  I want to know how many single sport, two sport and three sport athletes there are.  It would make for a great project for you to do.

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Why don't you do the study then?  I want to know how many single sport, two sport and three sport athletes there are.  It would make for a great project for you to do.

 

  Actually, VMI's time would be better spent studying than compiling studies.

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