duck_and_run Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 The first myth is that small schools have a disadvantage because there atheletes play multiple sports when the big school atheletes do not. Two things make this statement wrong. First many big schools have a ton of multisport atheletes. Bellmont, Castle, Mishawaka, Merriville, Penn, Yorktown, South Bend Clay, and Perry Meridian are just a few of the schools with 5 or more multisport atheletes. The second problem with the statement is that Y2 and Karl Hungus try to imply that playing multiple sports does not allow you to be a top level wrestler. Last year we had 6 champions who played multiple sports and this year we had five. If we look at 152-hvy then 4 of the top five in each weight class also play another sport. This shows that Elite wrestlers can play multiple sports and still be dominate. Next Y2 Lie. He uses data from the web site http://www.wrestlingstats.com to try and prove that class wrestling is making other states better. The only problem is that before 1961 15 states did not account for a single All American. Any one with a brain could tell you that wrestling had not reached those states so we can not say Indiana has been down. Another thing I find interesting about those statistics is that only 12 of the 50 states had over 10 All American from 1928-1962. Why would this be? How bout the fact there were only three conferences at the start the Big 10, BIg 12, and EIWA. Are you starting to see the problem with this data? There are only 30 college schools. Its the 1920's-1960's so in state recruiting was about all there was. So yes with less competition there will be more All Americans. Maybe Y2 should go whine about how Indiana is being cheated, because there are too many schools in D1. Use real statistics Y2. You look like a fool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duck_and_run Posted February 27, 2010 Author Share Posted February 27, 2010 Myth 3 more wrestlers would get recruited if we classed the sport. Truth is College recruiters are not going to be fooled by inflated records. They say that D2 and D3 schools would be looking more at the small school kids. Thats a load of bs. The D2 and D3 level would be looking for the best wrestlers available just like they do now. There is absolutly no reason the kids would get recruited more in a class wrestling scenario. In fact Y2 smokes his own arguement by saying that you do not get recruited by how you do at state you get recruited by placements at national tournements. If this is the case then class wrestling should have absolutly no effect on who gets recruited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 The first myth is that small schools have a disadvantage because there atheletes play multiple sports when the big school atheletes do not. Two things make this statement wrong. First many big schools have a ton of multisport atheletes. Bellmont, Castle, Mishawaka, Merriville, Penn, Yorktown, South Bend Clay, and Perry Meridian are just a few of the schools with 5 or more multisport atheletes. The second problem with the statement is that Y2 and Karl Hungus try to imply that playing multiple sports does not allow you to be a top level wrestler. Last year we had 6 champions who played multiple sports and this year we had five. If we look at 152-hvy then 4 of the top five in each weight class also play another sport. This shows that Elite wrestlers can play multiple sports and still be dominate. And it is a fact that small schools have more multi-sport athletes. Small schools have a smaller pool of athletes, therefore they need to spread those athletes around to all sports. If you ever find someone that disagrees with that, then they need to be checked into an insane asylum. I only counted three state champions, Porras, Cleveland, and Johnson-Jones. Lets not let facts get in the way though, we should just make up our own stats. Next Y2 Lie. He uses data from the web site http://www.wrestlingstats.com to try and prove that class wrestling is making other states better. The only problem is that before 1961 15 states did not account for a single All American. Any one with a brain could tell you that wrestling had not reached those states so we can not say Indiana has been down. Another thing I find interesting about those statistics is that only 12 of the 50 states had over 10 All American from 1928-1962. Why would this be? How bout the fact there were only three conferences at the start the Big 10, BIg 12, and EIWA. Are you starting to see the problem with this data? There are only 30 college schools. Its the 1920's-1960's so in state recruiting was about all there was. So yes with less competition there will be more All Americans. Maybe Y2 should go whine about how Indiana is being cheated, because there are too many schools in D1. Use real facts statistics Y2. You look like a fool. Reading comprehension and spelling really aren't your thing I understand that, so I will state this again. The statistics I put together showed that class wrestling has not hurt a state's ability to produce top tier wrestlers. Many single class supporters claim that class wrestling would hurt our ability to produce top tier wrestlers and I was disproving that myth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duck_and_run Posted February 27, 2010 Author Share Posted February 27, 2010 Actually that data can't be used for anything. I think I proved that. Plus you showed how many slots Indiana moved down implying that it was because class wrestling moved other states up. The data you used was a crock of Sh@#. How can you use data from a time when there were only 30 D1 schools? Use your brain that data can not be used for anything. Small schools may have more multi sport atheletes, but the fact that so many multisport atheletes were top level wrestlers shows that there is no corrilation between not playing multiple sports and more success. Thus you can not use that as an excuse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 Myth 3 more wrestlers would get recruited if we classed the sport. Truth is College recruiters are not going to be fooled by inflated records. They say that D2 and D3 schools would be looking more at the small school kids. Thats a load of bs. The D2 and D3 level would be looking for the best wrestlers available just like they do now. There is absolutly no reason the kids would get recruited more in a class wrestling scenario. In fact Y2 smokes his own arguement by saying that you do not get recruited by how you do at state you get recruited by placements at national tournements. If this is the case then class wrestling should have absolutly no effect on who gets recruited. Again you are wrong here, imagine that. First off, I have said that DI coaches look at national tournament success for their recruits. DII and DIII schools look more at state success because they don't go after Fargo placers since they are gobbled up by the schools with money to offer those wrestlers. It is a waste of DII and DIII staff's time to go after recruits that have a lot of national success. Class wrestling would get kids interested in wrestling at the next level sooner because they would have more success sooner. That would put them on the college's radar sooner to get noticed and be aware of the colleges that offer wrestling. By the time you are a senior making it to state the first time many times is too late as coaches have already pinpointed the wrestlers they want to go after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
army197 Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 I didn't know athletes was three syllables Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duck_and_run Posted February 27, 2010 Author Share Posted February 27, 2010 Lets be honest about this there were recruits for almost every Indiana school at all semi states. Its like that every year. If your not a semi stater by the time your a junior you most likely have no reason to be a college wrestler. Plus the coaches can contact any of these schools and talk with them about potential recruits. If the coaches would do a little more for their wrestlers the wrestlers will get more college opportunities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 Actually that data can't be used for anything. I think I proved that. Plus you showed how many slots Indiana moved down implying that it was because class wrestling moved other states up. The data you used was a crock of Sh@#. How can you use data from a time when there were only 30 D1 schools? Use your brain that data can not be used for anything. It can be used to show that class wrestling does not hinder a state's ability to produce top tier athletes. I guess you keep skipping this argument, since it hurts yours. Tell me then why Indiana is 18th in terms of All-Americans in the past 50 years? Tell me why South Dakota has the same amount of AA's as Indiana, I am interested in hearing your expert analysis on this! Small schools may have more multi sport atheletes, but the fact that so many multisport atheletes were top level wrestlers shows that there is no corrilation between not playing multiple sports and more success. Thus you can not use that as an excuse Again, the definition of many by anyone with an 8th grade education is over 50%, you have yet to show me that over 50% of the state champions or placers were multi-sport athletes. You made up an incomplete list and called it fact, that is the way to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
army197 Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 You for or against class wrestling y2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 Lets be honest about this there were recruits for almost every Indiana school at all semi states. Its like that every year. If your not a semi stater by the time your a junior you most likely have no reason to be a college wrestler. Plus the coaches can contact any of these schools and talk with them about potential recruits. If the coaches would do a little more for their wrestlers the wrestlers will get more college opportunities. False, I have never seen a coach from Indianapolis at Fort Wayne. I have never seen an IU or Purdue coach there either. The coaching staffs at the smaller colleges do not have the resources to send a coach to all four semi-states in the middle of the most important part of their season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 You for or against class wrestling y2 What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
army197 Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 I wouldn't of asked I'm not reading all this just to find out lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
army197 Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 Nevermind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 I am glad you put that Portage education to work I knew you were smarter than you looked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duck_and_run Posted February 27, 2010 Author Share Posted February 27, 2010 Your stats are from a time when the NCAA only had 3 conferences. Guess what, the states where those schools are will have more all americans because out of state recruiting didn't happen much at all back then. Use your brain for one second Y2. Your stats don't show crap besides that many states didn't have established college programs till the 1970. Your blinded by your own ignorance if you still say those facts show that class wrestling has not hurt anything. Those facts don't show anything but what states had schools that had wrestling programs near by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 Then why does South Dakota have as many All-Americans as Indiana since 1961 or Colorado or Wisconsin or Washington or Oregon? Tell me why those states have produced more top tier wrestlers than Indiana in the past 48 years. If you don't like the pre 1960 data, then throw it out and look at the 1961 to present data and tell me why Indiana is the 18th best state, when a single class system is so great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
army197 Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 Haha I'm a bit smarter than dnr here but why go to a class system if I won state in class 3 of my state I don't want to wonder if I'm the true number one at my weight in the state or number 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duck_and_run Posted February 27, 2010 Author Share Posted February 27, 2010 Number one Indiana colleges do not recruit in state and get burned by it. You can see the results when Howe Humphreys Tsirtsis and others leave the state. Its because Indiana has not been loyal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanMcMurray Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 I am glad you put that Portage education to work I knew you were smarter than you looked. Bet you he could pop you with a .50 cal from a couple hundred yards away thats an army education! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 Haha I'm a bit smarter than dnr here but why go to a class system if I won state in class 3 of my state I don't want to wonder if I'm the true number one at my weight in the state or number 10 Well I have many inanimate objects that are smarter than him. Since you are kinda new to the subject I will tell you how and why I feel the way I do in a shortened version. As a competitor I would want nothing more than a single class system. I love being at a small school and knocking off the big school kids and teams. This year we were undefeated against schools with 1000+ students and actually lost to two 1A teams along with two 3A teams and one 2A team. The reason I am for a class wrestling system is for the betterment of the sport as a whole at all levels in Indiana. I feel right now many small schools are struggling because in all reality it is hard to compete against schools with 1000+ students when you have 500 or less. If we were to go to a two(my preference) or three class system, I feel it would stimulate the smaller schools with struggling programs and help the sport at that level. If we would go to a two class system small schools would see an increase of about 75% in their state qualifiers per year. Big schools would also see an increase of 25% of the state qualifiers. So in essence even the struggling big schools would see a jump in state qualifiers and kids that get closer to qualifying for state. I believe that would help wrestling in the state if we would spread out the wealth more of the state qualifiers and placers. With more interest in wrestling comes more people that give back to the sport as coaches(at all levels from biddy to high school), refs, super fans and as wrestling parents. Is class wrestling a magic potion? No it is not, to win a state title in a classed system would still mean it would take hard work and dedication and a little bit of luck. There would still be many great match-ups in a two classed state finals. Here are some examples: 103 A- Phillips vs. Petrov AA- Hall vs. Brooks 112 A- Kendle vs. Gilbert AA- Ayersman vs. Beck 119 A- Bradley vs. Lovejoy AA- Nelson vs. Kieffer 125 A- Raley vs. Bevans AA- Wright vs. Kieffer 130- A- Jackson vs. ?? AA- Tsirtsis vs. Mullins 135 A- Hiestand vs. Waite AA- Norton vs. Berryman 140- A- Martin vs. ??? AA- Porras vs. Beck 145 A- Sims vs. Sampson AA- Welch vs. Roach 152- A- Lynde vs. Richey AA- Corpe vs. Bennett 160 A- McCray vs. Reese AA- McMurray vs. Willis 171- A- Stein vs. Duckworth AA- Howenstein vs. Weiss 189 A- Atwood vs. Scott AA- Johnson-Jones vs. Sliga 215 A- Froelich vs. Grubb AA- Lentz vs. Cleveland 285- A- Janney vs. West AA- Thomas vs. Travis I could go on, but you see the point. There would be some great match-ups! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 Number one Indiana colleges do not recruit in state and get burned by it. You can see the results when Howe Humphreys Tsirtsis and others leave the state. Its because Indiana has not been loyal. They have been burned by recruiting Indiana wrestlers in the past so they tend to try to go out of state first and pick up in-state kids for little to nothing. Humphrey was going to Ohio State no matter what, that is where his dad went. Howe went to Wisconsin because of a coach he trained with. The only one that "got away" was Tsirtsis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grenadier2012 Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 Number one Indiana colleges do not recruit in state and get burned by it. You can see the results when Howe Humphreys Tsirtsis and others leave the state. Its because Indiana has not been loyal. Yeah that statement would be true if 4 of the 5 ranked wrestlers on Indianas' roster weren't from in state. As for the three aforementioned wrestlers; I'm sure they had other reasons for going out of state than IU "not being loyal." Howe has Pritzlaff, Humphrey has his father and as for Tsirtsis, wanting to wrestle for Iowa speaks for itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 103 A- Phillips vs. Petrov 112 A- Kendle vs. Gilbert 119 A- Bradley vs. Lovejoy 125 A- Raley vs. Bevans 130- Jackson vs. ?? 135 A- Hiestand vs. Waite 140- A- Martin vs. 145 A- Sims vs. Sampson 152- A- Lynde vs. Richey 160 A- McCray vs. Reese 171- A- Stein vs. Duckworth 189 A- Atwood vs. Scott 215 A- Froelich vs. Grubb 285- A- Janney vs. West I could go on, but you see the point. There would be some great match-ups! Sounds like a heck of a lot of good small school matches. Man some of those small school kids are good or something. Looks like they can hang with and even beat the big schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
army197 Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 Most elite wrestlers now o said most wanna wrestle outta state for the other competition in the room not the same kids they've wrestled in high school for four years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 I'm suprised noone has tried to bring up the always entertaining "left field" argument: "the large school kids are actually at a big disadvantage because of the amount of talent a school has to choose from compared to small schools. It would means some quality kids get stuck behind studs and never have their chance to develope and shine over several season?" Or "some large school kids keep getting beat by the smaller schools and if they just had class wrestling those kids could get more exposer than they do now" You know the old "switch-o change-0" argument where we need to do class wrestling for the big schools. When people start throwing out these type of creative senerios we will really see some crazy arguments from some of these guys. ;D Sorry but this discussion is way stale so I figured I might as well flip it on its head so we can hear something actually new from these guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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