Reasons for a class system for team state

[Y2CJ41]

So since Indiana was a top 7 state through 1960, what happened for us to drop to 18th from 1961-present?

 

Shouldn't the percentage of AA's significantly increased.  We have had almost the same number of AA's yet it has become easier to AA... explanation please.

 

By the way Michigan was 9th until 1960 and 9th from 1961 to present.

[KarlHungus]

It appears as though Indiana has gotten worse over the decades in comparison to Michigan

[KarlHungus]

DNR speaks the truth here.......in my opinion

 

The stats don't back up you or DNR.

[md85]

And I'll bet for every state like Michigan, there are 2 who have dropped their number of AA since going to class wrestling.  I am sure someone out there could find some of these for me.  I am terrible at research.

[duck_and_run]

Y2 called in his man friend to come fight his battle for him.  That being said Y2 tryed to show a big increase in all americans from classing wrestling.  The truth is the number of AA has doubled since Michigan introduced it.  Also recruiting has gotten much better since then.  The midwest is also know as powerful wrestling states mostly because there big ten schools are dominate.  Look at good college programs and those states wrestling are better.  Pennsylvania, Iowa, and Ohio have good elete programs and the talent is better coming from those states.  It was built into there culture much earlier then Indiana.  Indiana is a know basketball state.  We produce basketball talent like Iowa produces wrestlers.  Year in and year out Indiana does over there fair share at basketball because its in our culture.  You can look at any thing in life and figure out who is going to be the best because of their culture.  If I want the best spaghetti in the world you go to Italy.  If I want the best Greco Wrestler I go to Russia.  If I want the best divers I would go to china.   These things are built into there culture.  They are better because they focus more on these things not because they liberalize them.  

[KarlHungus]

And I'll bet for every state like Michigan, there are 2 who have dropped their number of AA since going to class wrestling.  I am sure someone out there could find some of these for me.  I am terrible at research.

 

That's a bold statement.  The stats show a dramatic drop off in quality for Indiana over the past 50 years.  Those AA that used to be produced by Indiana are being picked up by other states.  Since most states are classed, logic would suggest that those AA are being picked up by states with class wrestling.  O the Horror!

[duck_and_run]

This in no way proves anything there are several states that have shown no improvement after classing them.  You take examples of states improving and say that class wrestling caused it.  There is no correlation

 

[KarlHungus]

DNR

 

1.  The homosexual reference does wonders for your argument.  People really follow your points much better when you vaugely suggest that those on the opposite side are gay.

 

2. You miss the point...Y2 was comparing Michigan to Indiana.  Indiana has gotten worse than Michigan since other Michigan started classing in the 1960s.  That is an indisputable fact.

 

3. Geography lesson.  Indiana is in the midwest.  What recruiting has to do with disproving the stats(facts) is beyond me.

 

4. It seems like the progressive/innovative states like Michigan have passed and lapped the conservative/lazy states like Indiana.

[KarlHungus]

Michigan hasn't even shown improvement...they are still 9th.  It is Indiana that has tumbled down the state rankings since class wrestling was introduced in most states.  What more should we expect with the conservative, head in the sand attitude that you display. 

[duck_and_run]

This seems like the global warming arguement to me.  Everything good seems to be because of class wrestling and everything bad seems to be blamed on classless wrestling.  Illinois has seen no improvement since there induction of class wrestling.  This arguement does not hold water because it is simply not true.  They have taken one individual example and tryed to make it fact.  Also they not shown that class wrestling proved the jump.

 

How does wrestling less telented wrestlers make for more AA talent?

it doesn't

[Y2CJ41]

Top 15 states in terms of AA's 1960 and earlier

 

1960 Rank Change from 1928-1960 Rank to 1961-present rank

1 Oklahoma -3

2 Iowa 0

3 Pennsylvania   2

4 Illinois -1

5 New York -2

6 New Jersey -1

7 Indiana -11

8 Michigan -1

9 Minnesota -1

10 Ohio 7

11 Kansas -10

12 Nebraska -14

13 California 7

13 Virginia   -1

15 Colorado 2

 

States that stand out

Indiana dropped 11 spots

Kansas dropped 10 spots

Nebraska dropped 14 spots

California and Ohio jumped 7 spots

 

Top 15 states in terms of AA's 1961 to present

 

1961+ Rank Change from 1928-1960 Rank to 1961-present rank

1 Pennsylvania   2

2 Iowa 0

3 Ohio 7

4 Oklahoma -3

5 Illinois -1

6 California 7

7 New York -2

7 New Jersey -1

9 Michigan -1

10 Minnesota -1

11 Oregon 9

12 Wisconsin 5

13 Colorado 2

14 Virginia   -1

15 Washington 13

 

States that stand out

Washington jumped 13 spots

Oregon jumped 9 spots

California and Ohio jumped 7 spots

 

Discuss....

[KarlHungus]

Ding!  Game, Set and Match.

[md85]

Michigan hasn't even shown improvement...they are still 9th.  It is Indiana that has tumbled down the state rankings since class wrestling was introduced in most states.  What more should we expect with the conservative, head in the sand attitude that you display. 

Once again, can you show cause and effect?  No.  Could it be because they have a higher population?  Could it be because they have more colleges offering wrestling?  Could it be a better wrestling culture?  The answer is yes, it could be any of these.  There is no definitive proof that class wrestling is the cause of the drop in standings of Indiana in AA's.  As my statistics professor told me you can show a correlation between increased ice cream sales and increased violent crime.  Does this mean ice cream causes violent crime?  Does the fact that Michigan has class wrestling and Indiana doesn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that class wrestling is the reason for more AA's?  Once again, no.  I am against any change that is just for the sake of change, be it liberal or conserative, because once we change we can never go back.  Also, the reason this is unlikely to ever happen is because the IHSAA has said the will not class the team sgement without classing the individual segment.  There are too many people in this state who prefer the individual tournament like it is.  

[md85]

Top 15 states in terms of AA's 1960 and earlier

 

1960 Rank Change from 1928-1960 Rank to 1961-present rank

1 Oklahoma -3

2 Iowa 0

3 Pennsylvania   2

4 Illinois -1

5 New York -2

6 New Jersey -1

7 Indiana -11

8 Michigan -1

9 Minnesota -1

10 Ohio 7

11 Kansas -10

12 Nebraska -14

13 California 7

13 Virginia   -1

15 Colorado 2

 

States that stand out

Indiana dropped 11 spots

Kansas dropped 10 spots

Nebraska dropped 14 spots

California and Ohio jumped 7 spots

 

Top 15 states in terms of AA's 1961 to present

 

1961+ Rank Change from 1928-1960 Rank to 1961-present rank

1 Pennsylvania   2

2 Iowa 0

3 Ohio 7

4 Oklahoma -3

5 Illinois -1

6 California 7

7 New York -2

7 New Jersey -1

9 Michigan -1

10 Minnesota -1

11 Oregon 9

12 Wisconsin 5

13 Colorado 2

14 Virginia   -1

15 Washington 13

 

States that stand out

Washington jumped 13 spots

Oregon jumped 9 spots

California and Ohio jumped 7 spots

 

Discuss....

I don't know which states have class wrestling and which don't.

[Y2CJ41]

Once again, can you show cause and effect?  No.  Could it be because they have a higher population?  Could it be because they have more colleges offering wrestling?  Could it be a better wrestling culture?  The answer is yes, it could be any of these.  There is no definitive proof that class wrestling is the cause of the drop in standings of Indiana in AA's.  As my statistics professor told me you can show a correlation between increased ice cream sales and increased violent crime.  Does this mean ice cream causes violent crime?  Does the fact that Michigan has class wrestling and Indiana doesn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that class wrestling is the reason for more AA's?  Once again, no.  I am against any change that is just for the sake of change, be it liberal or conserative, because once we change we can never go back.  Also, the reason this is unlikely to ever happen is because the IHSAA has said the will not class the team sgement without classing the individual segment.  There are too many people in this state who prefer the individual tournament like it is.  

It shows that class wrestling has not hurt their ability to produce top tier wrestlers.  Many naysayers say it would hinder our ability to produce Alex Tsirtsis's, Reece Humphrey's, Andrew Howe's if we were to go to a class system.  Michigan along with many other states with class wrestling have not been hindered in their ability to produce top tier wrestlers.  These statistics should quiet that argument.

 

Population doesn't matter remember?  If school size doesn't matter, then population shouldn't matter, right?  Or am I way off?

[Y2CJ41]

I don't know which states have class wrestling and which don't.

Changed, bolded have single class wrestling.  Note that only one state per my research went to class wrestling prior to 1961.  Most went to class wrestling in the mid-1960s through mid 1970's.

[phscoach]

And of the single class states listed, only Indiana showed significant decrease.  I don't feel that is causation.  It may show correlation, but instead to me may suggest alternate issues.  Maybe it is a lack of coaching in our school systems.  Maybe it is a lack of organization of our off-season programming (ISWA, HYWAY, etc.) .  Although in your opinion class wrestling is the end all option that will fix Indiana wrestling, it seems to me more of a have's versus have not's discussion.  I don't have 2000 students to choose from for my teams.  I don't have several middle school and elementary feeder programs to develop my wrestlers.  Would these be causes?  Is this your concern?  Again I ask, what is your motivation?  What goal are you trying to achieve?  Is is to make our wrestlers better or to give them more recognition?  

[md85]

It shows that class wrestling has not hurt their ability to produce top tier wrestlers.  Many naysayers say it would hinder our ability to produce Alex Tsirtsis's, Reece Humphrey's, Andrew Howe's if we were to go to a class system.  Michigan along with many other states with class wrestling have not been hindered in their ability to produce top tier wrestlers.  These statistics should quiet that argument.

 

Population doesn't matter remember?  If school size doesn't matter, then population shouldn't matter, right?  Or am I way off?

Alex, Reece, and Andrew, etc. were all going to be great no matter what system they wrestled under.  They were all wrestling national competitions for years.  They were all nationally ranked due to this competition.  That is the culture we need to work on.  Being in a class system with four timers in the bottom class who have 50 career losses and a 30-15 senior season is really not going to help indiana compete with states like michigan for all american wrestlers.  If you want to lobby the IHSAA for rule changes to make indiana wrestling better, ask them to remove the travel restrictions for tournaments and let our best go to the Beast of East and tournaments like that.

[base]

Alex, Reece, and Andrew, etc. were all going to be great no matter what system they wrestled under.  They were all wrestling national competitions for years.  They were all nationally ranked due to this competition.  That is the culture we need to work on.  Being in a class system with four timers in the bottom class who have 50 career losses and a 30-15 senior season is really not going to help indiana compete with states like michigan for all american wrestlers.  If you want to lobby the IHSAA for rule changes to make indiana wrestling better, ask them to remove the travel restrictions for tournaments and let our best go to the Beast of East and tournaments like that.

Amen to that.  If you want to see who the state champions are likely to be in 6 or 7 years, go to the ISWA folkstyle state tournament in a few weeks.  Or go to the Middle School State tournament.  At this point in their careers, you will see most of the future champions already succeeding on the mat, irregardless of how many kids are going to be in their HS graduating class.

[KarlHungus]

Once again, can you show cause and effect?  No.  Could it be because they have a higher population?  Could it be because they have more colleges offering wrestling?  Could it be a better wrestling culture?  The answer is yes, it could be any of these.  There is no definitive proof that class wrestling is the cause of the drop in standings of Indiana in AA's.  As my statistics professor told me you can show a correlation between increased ice cream sales and increased violent crime.  Does this mean ice cream causes violent crime?  Does the fact that Michigan has class wrestling and Indiana doesn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that class wrestling is the reason for more AA's?  Once again, no.  I am against any change that is just for the sake of change, be it liberal or conserative, because once we change we can never go back.  Also, the reason this is unlikely to ever happen is because the IHSAA has said the will not class the team sgement without classing the individual segment.  There are too many people in this state who prefer the individual tournament like it is. 

 

All true.  But it also possible that there is a corelation.  But what about the argument that kids that wrestle in indiana deserve to be treated like their peers in other sports within the state and like other wrestlers in other states.

 

I guess I am against a system that has as it's strongest argument: "I prefer it."

 

40+ other states have looked beyond personal preferences and have created tournament series that try to keep the playing level as fair as possible. 

[md85]

Top 15 states in terms of AA's 1960 and earlier

 

1960 Rank Change from 1928-1960 Rank to 1961-present rank

1 Oklahoma -3

2 Iowa 0

3 Pennsylvania   2

4 Illinois -1

5 New York -2

6 New Jersey -1

7 Indiana -11

8 Michigan -1

9 Minnesota -1

10 Ohio 7

11 Kansas -10

12 Nebraska -14

13 California 7

13 Virginia   -1

15 Colorado 2

 

States that stand out

Indiana dropped 11 spots

Kansas dropped 10 spots

Nebraska dropped 14 spots

California and Ohio jumped 7 spots

 

Top 15 states in terms of AA's 1961 to present

 

1961+ Rank Change from 1928-1960 Rank to 1961-present rank

1 Pennsylvania   2

2 Iowa 0

3 Ohio 7

4 Oklahoma -3

5 Illinois -1

6 California 7

7 New York -2

7 New Jersey -1

9 Michigan -1

10 Minnesota -1

11 Oregon 9

12 Wisconsin 5

13 Colorado 2

14 Virginia   -1

15 Washington 13

 

States that stand out

Washington jumped 13 spots

Oregon jumped 9 spots

California and Ohio jumped 7 spots

 

Discuss....

What about the other 35 states?  How many of them have class wrestling and have dropped the number of AA's they have?

[KarlHungus]

md:  What do you think is the reason for the tumble in quality of Indiana wrestling in the past 50 years?

[duck_and_run]

Where did you find your statistics?  Are you going by what the colleges in the state have done or the wrestlers from that state.  Something tells me there is no info on where the individuals were from prior to the 1970's. Another thing is most programs did not start up till after WW2 so yes Indiana is going to have more success when there is less competition.  So much has change since the 1960's.  I am calling this study bogus.  I am saying he went on how the college did and not how the state did.  There is not information out there on where a 1928 wrestler was from.  

 

Karl I can tell you its not class wrestling.  Its that more teams were added after 1943.  Indiana had  a national championship team and a runner up when there were very few teams wrestling for the title.  Thats where I would guess they got the majority of there AA.

[KarlHungus]

And of the single class states listed, only Indiana showed significant decrease.  I don't feel that is causation.  It may show correlation, but instead to me may suggest alternate issues.  Maybe it is a lack of coaching in our school systems.  Maybe it is a lack of organization of our off-season programming (ISWA, HYWAY, etc.) .  Although in your opinion class wrestling is the end all option that will fix Indiana wrestling, it seems to me more of a have's versus have not's discussion.  I don't have 2000 students to choose from for my teams.  I don't have several middle school and elementary feeder programs to develop my wrestlers.  Would these be causes?  Is this your concern?  Again I ask, what is your motivation?  What goal are you trying to achieve?  Is is to make our wrestlers better or to give them more recognition? 

 

No class wrestling supporters have ever said class wrestling is a panacea.

 

They have said that class wrestling will not decrease quality.

 

They have said that class wrestling will allow more wrestlers to appear on the college radar earlier in their career. (all levels)

 

They have said that class wrestling could be a shot in the arm to those schools struggling to fill rosters because they may have a realistic chance at post season success.

 

They have said if more Indiana wrestlers get noticed by colleges of all levels earlier in their career, there is a higher likelyhood of Indiana kids wrestling in college, giving back to the sport by coaching, thus raising the level of coaching quality in the state.

 

Andy of course, we want to feel good about ourselves and every kid deserves a ribbon, even those that don't work hard at it.

[Y2CJ41]

And of the single class states listed, only Indiana showed significant decrease.  I don't feel that is causation.  It may show correlation, but instead to me may suggest alternate issues.  Maybe it is a lack of coaching in our school systems.  Maybe it is a lack of organization of our off-season programming (ISWA, HYWAY, etc.) .  Although in your opinion class wrestling is the end all option that will fix Indiana wrestling, it seems to me more of a have's versus have not's discussion.  I don't have 2000 students to choose from for my teams.  I don't have several middle school and elementary feeder programs to develop my wrestlers.  Would these be causes?  Is this your concern?  Again I ask, what is your motivation?  What goal are you trying to achieve?  Is is to make our wrestlers better or to give them more recognition? 

Speaking in terms of New Jersey, I asked someone from there if there was a significant different between the classes and how many wrestlers qualified for state.  The person stated no and showed that there was little difference between big and small schools.  I was surprised by the little disparity between classes there, so I racked my brain trying to figure out why it is.  I thought, well maybe the team portion being class helped.  That is a distinct possibility, but I decided to dig further and look at the size of the schools in New Jersey.  What I found was probably why they seem to not have such a great disparity as Indiana does.

New Jersey has about 308 schools with wrestling and Indiana has 309, so we are fairly equal in that department. Here are the statistics?.

Number of Students

Indiana- 305370

New Jersey- 288501

*Note these are only schools with wrestling.  There are approximately 120 more schools in New Jersey without wrestling.

 

Average Enrollment

Indiana- 988

New Jersey- 933

 

Median Enrollment

Indiana- 741

New Jersey- 852

 

Standard Deviation

Indiana- 704.1

New Jersey- 440.5

 

New Jersey Breakdown of school size

0-500 46

501-1000 142

1001-1500 88

1501-2000 24

2000+ 9

 

Indiana breakdown of school size

0-500 83

501-1000 109

1001-1500 52

1501-2000 33

2000+ 32

 

What I have concluded is that New Jersey does not have the huge disparity between all their schools as Indiana does.  Other factors that could affect their numbers are the closeness of the population to eachother.  When everyone is closer together that means more people have access to the better clubs and facilities. Also, last but not least, classing of the team side.