Reasons for a class system for team state

[TheAncientElder]

Y2,

 

Even with that last cheap shot I will not be drawn in to this argument.

 

TheAncientElder (TAE)

 

The Imperial Potentate and Grand Poobah of Classless wrestling in Indiana.

I wear my Fez with pride.

 

www.theancientelder.net

 

 

[theckman]

Come get me grandpa!

 

LOL.....I've been called worse by better

[NECC]

I mean the Michigan that for every all american they have there's 10 more shoulda coulda woulda's because they were the next best thing coming out.  And the Indiana that, although we may not be known for our dominance, at least you know what you're getting.  Remember they have 56 state champs every year to our 14, so thats 2744 since1961 to our 686.  We're lucky that we're under the radar enough that if someone does well in college we can say we thought they would because of the success they had in HS here, yet not have the expectations to pump out national champs every year. 

[Y2CJ41]

We have had just as many kids flame out in college than Michigan.  If you want me to start naming examples, I surely will.  Michigan wrestling is far superior to Indiana wrestling at this point in time and we aren't catching them any time soon.  They have had quite a bit of success with that horrible class system in place.  It has not hurt their upper tier wrestlers one bit.

[chambers]

The IHSAA will not make a whole new structure for the sport of wrestling.  We will have to go to either a four or five class system.  Also if we deem the team side more important they will force an individual side change.  Four or five class individual tournement is an absolute joke for all the wrestlers.  Im not to worried about changing the structure of the sport though, they can't even get wrestle backs through how in the heck do they expect to get the whole system switched.  Its a dumb topic to even post cause its not going to happen and if it ever does it will be classed for both the team and individual in a 4 or 5 class system.

 

The IHSAA would not need to make a whole new structure for the sport of wrestling. They would also not make us go to either a four or five class system. The IHSAA bylaws (which are online for everyone to read) clearly say that a sport with the number of schools that wrestling has would be divided into three classes.  Here is the bylaw:

 

RULE 2 ? CLASSIFICATION OF SCHOOLS

2-1

Schools may be classified in team sports up to a maximum of four classes, except football which shall

have five classes, according to the following criteria:

a. If 50 percent of the member schools sponsored a team and entered the IHSAA tournament in the

previous year, that sport may have two classes.

 

b. If 75 percent of the member schools sponsored a team and entered the IHSAA tournament in the

previous year, that sport may have three classes.

c. If 95 percent of the member schools sponsored a team and entered the IHSAA tournament in the

previous year, that sport may have four classes.

 

Wrestling has  309 schools that have teams. There are 411 schools that are members of the IHSAA.

[Y2CJ41]

Lets not start bringing facts into the argument now!  

[duck_and_run]

Ok so even if we are looking at a three class system we still deam the sport to be a team sport by doing this.  That means that the individual tournement will also have 3 classes.  All I am saying is it is not worth it to change the team portion if it will ruin the individual side.  Fight now or lose the greatest tournement in the state.  Class wrestling is a slippery slope and it won't end at just the team.  Only one state has this structure and Bobby Cox and the boys don't care about wrestling enough to do this.  I guess the team wouldn't be to bad because Garrett would be in Belmont and Yorktowns devision and still get smoked every year.  Then we can see what Y2 schemes up next to say why the team he helps out with was cheated.  I am sure it will be something he blames class wrestling on his loss at sectionals the past two seasons.  When the truth is he was beat by a much smaller school both years.  He also acts like yorktown is so much bigger then Garrett when the truth is it has less then 100 more boys and also has a swim team to compete for atheletes.  So whats it going to be next year Y2?  I have a thought maybe your just getting out coached.  It seems to be the only logical explanation.  You get beat by smaller schools and you don't compete with slightly larger schools.  I will say Garrett is starting a fine program, but just because you don't win a championship does not mean your getting cheated.  You have several post in the past where you act like you are.  Im tired of it.  You act like you know everything.  I think if you spent half as much time working with your wrestlers rather than complaining about how they are getting cheated maybe the results would come.  I never have heard anyone say I have no chance tonight, were wrestling a 5a school. 

[youngone]

The IHSAA would not need to make a whole new structure for the sport of wrestling. They would also not make us go to either a four or five class system. The IHSAA bylaws (which are online for everyone to read) clearly say that a sport with the number of schools that wrestling has would be divided into three classes.  Here is the bylaw:

 

RULE 2 ? CLASSIFICATION OF SCHOOLS

2-1

Schools may be classified in team sports up to a maximum of four classes, except football which shall

have five classes, according to the following criteria:

a. If 50 percent of the member schools sponsored a team and entered the IHSAA tournament in the

previous year, that sport may have two classes.

 

b. If 75 percent of the member schools sponsored a team and entered the IHSAA tournament in the

previous year, that sport may have three classes.

c. If 95 percent of the member schools sponsored a team and entered the IHSAA tournament in the

previous year, that sport may have four classes.

 

Wrestling has  309 schools that have teams. There are 411 schools that are members of the IHSAA.

By my math that puts us right at two classes It would work

I don't under stantd why a segrigated team state would be such a problem. I uderstand why A single individual champion would be benificial. But as far as a team goes you can't tell me it is fair when a shool with 400 students versus a school with 1200 students. How many teams under 500 students have ever made the state finals.

We have a problem with kids switching schools now so That isn't a factor that would change do to a class shift.

Also under the format I present the team tournament goes by duels . We all know that a good tournament team does not equal a good dual team.

IndianaMats top twenty teams teams and enrollment

 

1. Mishawaka (23-0) 1676

2. Crown Point (12-1) 2187

3. Yorktown (27-1) 731

4. Perry Meridian (22-1) 2004

5. Castle (15-3) 1754

6. Evansville Reitz (17-1) 824

7. Evansville Mater Dei (17-1) 571

8. Merrillville (17-2) 2275

9. Penn (17-3) 3268

10. Portage (14-6) 2595

11. Bloomington South (17-4) 1939

12. Bellmont (19-5) 910

13. Franklin (20-6) 2058

14. Roncalli (12-3) 980

15. Jeffersonville (22-6) 2069

16. Cathedral (18-3) 1208

17. New Palestine (22-5) 999

18. Carmel (7-4) 3916

19. Lawrence North (10-5) 2962

20. Center Grove (19-5) 2255

Only two schools are lower than indianas averge of 740

 

And no topic is DUMB to post about Duck and Run You have proven that one yourself

[jcarter]

309 is just above 75% of the schools... we would have 3 classes

[gstemv81]

Since we're all about hypotheticals, what would the cutoffs be in a three class system and which teams would magically fall right below that cutoff?  I have a hunch that Garrett just might wind up being a top dog in the small schools of northern Indiana with Bellmont and Yorktown in the middle of the pack of midsize schools.  (I'm just being ornery here - I'm sure Y2 sincerely believes in class wrestling regardless of convenient coincidences.)

 

Are there any small schools under 600 enrollment that can hold MD to under 65-70 in a dual?  Is this what we want every year?  As for individual state do we want to see a state tourney run over 3 days and 12 mats?  Do we want to see 3 championship matches going at the same time?  As far as I know Conseco only has one overhead spotlight!

[worttie]

it really boils down to if the ishaa can make money on class system they will do it

[md85]

We have had just as many kids flame out in college than Michigan.  If you want me to start naming examples, I surely will.  Michigan wrestling is far superior to Indiana wrestling at this point in time and we aren't catching them any time soon.  They have had quite a bit of success with that horrible class system in place.  It has not hurt their upper tier wrestlers one bit.

Doesn't Michigan have 3x the population of Indiana?

[Y2CJ41]

Doesn't Michigan have 3x the population of Indiana?

Don't you remember that size of school doesn't matter... shouldn't it be the same for the size of the state?  Or will we throw that argument out since it doesn't help the argument?

[duck_and_run]

No one ever brings up the point about raising recruiting arround the state.  If we do class the state with the curent rules in place won't the big schools get more wrestlers wanting to transfer schools to get more exposure?  I know if I am an Andrew Howe type charachter I am looking for competition anyway I can find it.  If that means switching schools to see better compitition then thats what I would do.  The Tsirtsis family some how always finds a room with the best practice partners in the state, and I do not blame them.  Classing wrestling just promotes recruiting and cheating your way to titles.  We are already on a slippery slope after watching how Mishawaka has been running their room the past season and I doubt it will stop there.  Lets not turn this problem into an epidemic by classing wrestling and making recruiting in 3 diferent classes.

[Short Jay]

Y2,

Is there any way we can compare the number of wrestlers Michigan has sent to DI vs Indiana wrestlers going DI in those time periods?  It would make sense that they would have more if they have sent more to DI schools. 

[duck_and_run]

I am not going to let this happen.  Y2 you can try and act like class wrestling made these states have college success.  It is abosolute bs.  There is no correlation to class wrestling and college success.  Y2 always forgets to bring up all the class states that we are better then when he tries to make his arguement.  He does the same thing when it comes to multisport atheletes.  Both arguements are lies that the common folk fall for.  Truth is there is no correlation at all between class wrestling and better college level wrestlers.  Basically Y2 stretches the truth on all these issues and we should call him on it.

[md85]

I am not going to let this happen.  Y2 you can try and act like class wrestling made these states have college success.  It is abosolute bs.  There is no correlation to class wrestling and college success.  Y2 always forgets to bring up all the class states that we are better then when he tries to make his arguement.  He does the same thing when it comes to multisport atheletes.  Both arguements are lies that the common folk fall for.  Truth is there is no correlation at all between class wrestling and better college level wrestlers.  Basically Y2 stretches the truth on all these issues and we should call him on it.

We had a long discussion on this board last summer and I brought up the same points.  There are like 2x as many states with class wrestling that are worse than Indiana than better.  By that count we should never want class wrestling.  Also New Jersey and California, 2 of the top wrestling states have a single class system.  Y2 always says don't let facts get in the way of your arguement, yet he continues to overlook these.  There is no proof that class wrestling has improved competition in any state.  I am not for any change just for change sake, because once we change we can never go back.

[Y2CJ41]

Has single class wrestling helped Kentucky, Vermont, Texas, Hawaii, and Delaware?  Just curious because if you think single class wrestling is the answer then these states are struggling.

[md85]

Has single class wrestling helped Kentucky, Vermont, Texas, Hawaii, and Delaware?  Just curious because if you think single class wrestling is the answer then these states are struggling.

2x as many states with class wrestling are worse that Indiana.  Maybe 2x as many states with single class are worse.  That would mean the neither way is advantageous.  That means we deffinitely should change.  Right.  I love that logic.  Still absolutely no proff that class wrestling is an advantage.  Oh thats right, it is because Y2 says it is.(I love pulling Y2's chain on this topic. )

[duck_and_run]

It definatly has not hurt them.   Its not like if these states class the sport they will become dominate.  What needs to change is the culture of wrestling in a state.  In Iowa wrestling is just as big as basketball and you can tell by the talent they produce.  Quit trying to make class wrestling magic potion for fixing wrestling because it is simply not the case.  Your examples are rediculous.  You take anything good from a classed wrestling state and say that it is because they are classed, but anything bad you change the subject.  There is absolutly no correlation to class wrestling and increased performance.  Admit you lies.

[AJ]

It definatly has not hurt them.   Its not like if these states class the sport they will become dominate.  

 There is absolutly no correlation to class wrestling and increased performance.  

 

DNR speaks the truth here.......in my opinion

[Y2CJ41]

Lets use Michigan as an example and tell me how class wrestling has ruined their wrestling tradition

They started class wrestling in 1961 with two classes and expanded to four in 1974

From 1928-1960 Michigan had 23 All-Americans

From 1961-present Michigan had 174 All-Americans

 

Indiana in that time span

From1928-1960 had 26 All-Americans

From 1961-present had 38 All-Americans

In that time span states like Florida, Missouri, Washington, Virginia, Oregon, Wisconsin and even Colorado have had more AA's.

From 1928-1960 Indian had the 7th most AA's of all the states, from 1961-present we are at 18th.

[Smooth34]

I'd be okay with a two-class system for team state.  However, my personal opinion is to leave the individual state tournament the one-class system we have now with a few adjustments (wrestlebacks at SS, etc).

[duck_and_run]

More bs Y2.  Lets go over how All American status has been determined.  

 

1928-1940 NCAAs: Three (3) All-Americans in each weight class.  (There was only one national wrestling championship from 1928-1963.)

1941-1962 NCAAs: Four (4) All-Americans in each weight class.

1963-1978 NCAAs: Six (6) All-Americans in each weight class in both divisions. (In 1963, the national championships were split in two -- University Division and College Division. In 1974, the NCAA wrestling competition was put into today's D1/D2/D3 structure.)

1979-present: Eight (8) All-Americans in each weight class in all three divisions.

 

Now adays there are twice as many all americans as when they switched over.  Also recruiting has come a long way since then.  In those day in state recruiting was huge and wrestling was not as big.  You use bs stats and treat them like fact.  I know there are several states that have not seen any improvement since classing the state.  You use an individual example to try and prove stuff that is not true.  Dont let the facts get in your way with your arguement Y2.

[KarlHungus]

  You use bs stats and treat them like fact. 

 

That is crazy talk...stats are treated like facts????? What will they think of next?

 

You miss the point again.  Y2 was comparing state to state, Indiana vs. Michigan.  How AA is determined has no bearing on the point.  There you go again.....