Chesterton coach suspended

[bigdanteague]

The problem is the interpretation of the rules. Every coach that has posted on this subject has said that. People are on here slamming coaches, what do we do when Cox has changed the interpretation of the rule over and over?

 

This is the coach's quote, "I agree I broke the rule with Anthony, and I did it with more than just him," he said. "I've been doing the same thing forever. I guess I should've been punished a long time ago. No one's ever checked. I wasn't doing it to win a match. It's hubris, ignorance, trust. If I had followed the plan, it would've been fine."

 

That is not a mistake in interpretation, that is disregard.  Don't put this one on Cox.

[phscoach]

This is the coach's quote, "I agree I broke the rule with Anthony, and I did it with more than just him," he said. "I've been doing the same thing forever. I guess I should've been punished a long time ago. No one's ever checked. I wasn't doing it to win a match. It's hubris, ignorance, trust. If I had followed the plan, it would've been fine."

 

That is not a mistake in interpretation, that is disregard.  Don't put this one on Cox.

 

 

I'm not defending or condemning Coach Joll.  My comments are directed at those who feel this "program" is beneficial to all involved and working.  Coaches need to operate their programs ethically, but why is this situation in the hands of the coach?  Using your steroid analogy, do you really think Tony LaRussa should have to bench McGwire halfway through the 70 home-run season because he knew he was taking steroids?  Why put them in a situation where they may be tempted?

 

My issue is the implementation.  I have seen other states plans and programs.  Is there not a system that we can use to support the program itself?  Is there not a database where this information can be compiled and recorded?  Why does it have to be present at the sectional meeting?  Shouldn't there be concern for it long before then?  They (IHSAA) have a tendency to be reactive instead of proactive.  If they want to avoid criticism and fairness questions, they should take care of the problem ahead of time.  There is no reason why a wrestler who weighed in overweight should be allowed to wrestle. Period.  That is one of the biggest rules in our sport.  But apparently there is enough gray area to allow that.  No respect for that.

 

I don't expect any school board to take this up as reason for dismissal of a coach.  If it is blatant, that is one thing.  But as I discussed before, the language of the plan gives a creative person the leeway to bend and stretch the rule to serve their purpose.  It would be dangerous to take action against someone with this sort of rule set in place because you could find yourself on the wrong end of legal action with virtually any interpretation of the rules left to a jury of our peers with little wrestling knowledge or background.  How about fixing the problem and not allowing coaches to make poor choices for themselves and their teams?  Let's seek to educate and support rather than punish.  Then those that break the rules have no complaints or reasons to be upset with anyone.  That's my beef.  Again, I may be off base, but I'm tired of a constantly fluid discipline system where there's no consistency from those who are supposedly acting to encourage fairness in sports.

[bigdanteague]

How is it not blatant in this situation?

[GrandpaWrestler]

PHSCoach--- I agree the system needs worked and repaired. But when someone disregards the rules when is that right? When it is suppose to be alright to disregard anything that has to do with the wrestlers safety?

 

My problem is with the statement that coach made that showed he had a totally disregarded the rule. And as you know this was suppose to be a part of the coach's ethics.

 

It has to be an age thing. I am starting to have a greater respect for the good coaches in our sport. The ones that teach the true meaning of wrestling. That teach diet, health, weight management and still have time to teach them how to wrestle. That teach them to respect their coaches, teachers, officials, and all of those volunteers that enable us to continue our sport.

 

But I am starting to loose it with coaches who disregard rules. Who agrue loud when they know they are wrong...... because they are attempting to "get something extra" for their wrestler even though they know it is wrong...... who call foul when their wrestler is over weight.......

 

Coach - PHS: I will help you get whatever you need to make this sport safe for our wrestlers. But I can NOT support somone who disregards wrestler safety and then states that they did so........... This person is not a good representative of our sport!!!!!!!

 

Now your question about LaRusssa and 70 homerun season - it might surpreise you but I think LaRussa and Major league baseball were wrong...... but McGwire was a a professional adult........ he has made his choice..... this coach is dealing with minors - High School kids......... and he disregarded an ethics rule....... I am also an adult now who as a kid in the 70's did steriods at the "incouragement" of my high school coach........ and I am paying for it in health issues and cutting 18 -20 lbs back in the day has not helped much  either!!!!!!!! I am paying for my youthful ignorance. I want the sport safe for my grandson!!!

 

I have always had a great deal of respect for you and your program. But this Chesterton Coach with his statement and his total diregard of the rules is wrong!!!!!!!!!!!

[Wrestlers-R-Us]

Recently we attended an Elite Wrestling Tourney in Illinois for kids ages: K-8th. grade. We were surprised on arrival to find out that there would be "mat-side weigh-ins" previous to every match wrestled. There was only a 2lb. allowance from the first weigh-in continuing throughout the end of the day. (you wrestled not knowing your weight & were disqualified after the match if you were over the 2lb. allowance!)

 

Some of the Elite wrestlers parents were furious that they weren't informed of this rule...

Many of these Elite wrestlers, if not the majority of them were State/National Placers from around the country.

 

My point is this, Illinois was trying to get away from the severe cutting that some of these folks practice with their kids for the entire season. If your kid is good & the season goes on beyond March, into May for Freestyle & then onto various Nationals held thru out the states all summer, when does the kid get to eat normally & grow???

 

If a wrestler arrives at a tourney well hydrated but hungry, the 2lb. weight-gain is not a problem. Kids won't gorge themselves after a weigh-in if they aren't cutting weight & if they aren't dehydrated they won't blow up beyond the 2lbs. from normal drinking!

 

Indiana could eventually work toward this type of system & eliminate the weight cutting at all levels!

 

 

 

[phscoach]

PHSCoach--- I agree the system needs worked and repaired. But when someone disregards the rules when is that right? When it is suppose to be alright to disregard anything that has to do with the wrestlers safety?

 

My problem is with the statement that coach made that showed he had a totally disregarded the rule. And as you know this was suppose to be a part of the coach's ethics.

 

It has to be an age thing. I am starting to have a greater respect for the good coaches in our sport. The ones that teach the true meaning of wrestling. That teach diet, health, weight management and still have time to teach them how to wrestle. That teach them to respect their coaches, teachers, officials, and all of those volunteers that enable us to continue our sport.

 

But I am starting to loose it with coaches who disregard rules. Who agrue loud when they know they are wrong...... because they are attempting to "get something extra" for their wrestler even though they know it is wrong...... who call foul when their wrestler is over weight.......

 

Coach - PHS: I will help you get whatever you need to make this sport safe for our wrestlers. But I can NOT support somone who disregards wrestler safety and then states that they did so........... This person is not a good representative of our sport!!!!!!!

 

Now your question about LaRusssa and 70 homerun season - it might surpreise you but I think LaRussa and Major league baseball were wrong...... but McGwire was a a professional adult........ he has made his choice..... this coach is dealing with minors - High School kids......... and he disregarded an ethics rule....... I am also an adult now who as a kid in the 70's did steriods at the "incouragement" of my high school coach........ and I am paying for it in health issues and cutting 18 -20 lbs back in the day has not helped much  either!!!!!!!! I am paying for my youthful ignorance. I want the sport safe for my grandson!!!

 

I have always had a great deal of respect for you and your program. But this Chesterton Coach with his statement and his total diregard of the rules is wrong!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Fair enough, but as I stated, I am not talking about this particular coach.  I am talking about the fact that he has the ability to make this choice.  I agree with you that coaches should act ethically at all times.  At all costs is no my motto when it comes to my kids in my program.  I love each of my wrestlers like they were my sons and I would not allow them to do something that I know will cause damage to them.  I also understand that not everyone in my profession thinks that way.  Knowing that, why would I ever feel good about a program that gives them a very real opportunity to make wrong choices?  You may argue that people need to be allowed to have free will, but when violations cause physical damage to a student's health, I don't think you can allow that to happen. 

 

Coaches have been proven to mess up for the perceived gain of their team or program.  It happens on every level.  No matter how much we try to make sure the name of coaching stays clean and respectful, there are always those who are selfish and are only here for themselves.  Can't change that no matter how hard you try.

 

I think the state is turning a blind eye to the situation because they feel like it is too much of a hassle to have to chase all that data.  Then, when someone makes a big deal about it, they swoop in and act like they have it all under control.  Some of the blame does lie on the individual coaches that break the rule meaningfully.  I don't deny that.  But until all the loose ends are tied up, I still put some blame on Bobby Cox and the IHSAA.  If this is really an important set of rules, then make them effective and uniform and coaches will fall in line with them or face a clear set of consequences.  Until then, I predict that every time a big name wrestler doesn't make weight, some people will be wanting to call the IHSAA for a ruling because they set a precedent whether they want to accept it or not.

 

By the way, I appreciate the fact that you have respected my program, but I'm not sold you actually know who I am.  PM me and we can talk further.

[WaltHarris]

Recently we attended an Elite Wrestling Tourney in Illinois for kids ages: K-8th. grade. We were surprised on arrival to find out that there would be "mat-side weigh-ins" previous to every match wrestled. There was only a 2lb. allowance from the first weigh-in continuing throughout the end of the day. (you wrestled not knowing your weight & were disqualified after the match if you were over the 2lb. allowance!)

 

Some of the Elite wrestlers parents were furious that they weren't informed of this rule...

Many of these Elite wrestlers, if not the majority of them were State/National Placers from around the country.

 

My point is this, Illinois was trying to get away from the severe cutting that some of these folks practice with their kids for the entire season. If your kid is good & the season goes on beyond March, into May for Freestyle & then onto various Nationals held thru out the states all summer, when does the kid get to eat normally & grow???

 

If a wrestler arrives at a tourney well hydrated but hungry, the 2lb. weight-gain is not a problem. Kids won't gorge themselves after a weigh-in if they aren't cutting weight & if they aren't dehydrated they won't blow up beyond the 2lbs. from normal drinking!

 

Indiana could eventually work toward this type of system & eliminate the weight cutting at all levels!

 

The practice of a matside weigh-in is an excellent idea.  I will admit I love it when the ignorant and foolish parents become angry about the rules.  ;D Sadly, too many parents do a disservice to their child. The kid cuts weight from K-8th grade, then the parents are 'stunned' when the kid quits wrestling in HS.

[mtv2112]

Recently we attended an Elite Wrestling Tourney in Illinois for kids ages: K-8th. grade. We were surprised on arrival to find out that there would be "mat-side weigh-ins" previous to every match wrestled. There was only a 2lb. allowance from the first weigh-in continuing throughout the end of the day. (you wrestled not knowing your weight & were disqualified after the match if you were over the 2lb. allowance!)

 

Some of the Elite wrestlers parents were furious that they weren't informed of this rule...

Many of these Elite wrestlers, if not the majority of them were State/National Placers from around the country.

 

My point is this, Illinois was trying to get away from the severe cutting that some of these folks practice with their kids for the entire season. If your kid is good & the season goes on beyond March, into May for Freestyle & then onto various Nationals held thru out the states all summer, when does the kid get to eat normally & grow???

 

If a wrestler arrives at a tourney well hydrated but hungry, the 2lb. weight-gain is not a problem. Kids won't gorge themselves after a weigh-in if they aren't cutting weight & if they aren't dehydrated they won't blow up beyond the 2lbs. from normal drinking!

 

Indiana could eventually work toward this type of system & eliminate the weight cutting at all levels!

 

 

 

 

Consistently cutting weight at the jr. high level and lower is absolutely a joke and shows a complete disregard for a kids welfare.  I would go so far to say that it is a case of mommy and daddy living vicariously through the kid.  You see circumstantial evidence of this all the time (kids gaining 25 lbs. in a year, hollow drawn face, etc.).  I find the practice morally wrong.  It is one thing to drop a pound or so the day before a tournament or whatever, but continually maintaining weight at that age when kids should be growing is harmful, I think.

[GladSwede]

 

 

If a wrestler arrives at a tourney well hydrated but hungry, the 2lb. weight-gain is not a problem. Kids won't gorge themselves after a weigh-in if they aren't cutting weight & if they aren't dehydrated they won't blow up beyond the 2lbs. from normal drinking!

 

2 lbs of water is slightly under a liter of water. ( 1 liter is about 2.2 lbs of water) that's two  16.9 fl oz bottles of water.  that's not a lot of water after wrestling for 6 minutes. Sure they are going to lose some water while wrestling so it's not going to all be added weight but you also want them to eat during these long wrestling days.

While I can't find documentation on this I know my weight fluxuates 2-4 lbs throughout a day. If I work out it varies even more as I tend to over-hydrate after particularly hard workouts. None of those "hard workouts" compare to the fatigue of 3 to 5 six minute wrestling matches. 2lbs seems like an incredibly light expectation for growing kids wrestling.

[getstuck]

agreed.. two lbs is a lil light.. not to mention as a former wrestler at franklin and at purdue for a year i would have to honestly say that cutting weight taught me many life lessons... setting weight goals and obtaining them.. responsibility in managing my weight.. self-control.. etc.. i could go on and on about this subject.. cutting weight is part of this sport and it is something that i beleive makes this sport great.. cutting weight and managing can tell a person a lot about themselves...

[awood1]

Very good point. "Everybody does it" is just rationalizing his lack of ethics and trying to spread the blame.  Kids losing 6% of their bodyweight are not the healthiest kids in school or the weight management plan would allow for 6% loss per week.

 

 

As I re-read it I guess it could be taken that way, but thats not what I read.  In the coach saying flat out that it was his fault and a result of his actions it sounded like he was stepping in front of the bullet to me.  Also, the read I get from the posters that are saying "everyone does it" are not trying to rationalize or protect anyone, I THINK they are saying that the most literal interpretation of the rules "could" leave just about everyone in violation....but I am a glass half full type of guy.

[awood1]

The best intentions line might work if the kid were off by a tenth or two.  The kid lost 4 times the amount allowed and was weighed in and put on the mat by the coach.  This is not a case of the coach taking the blame....It was HIS mistake.  The IHSAA ruled that the kid could wrestle.  Mark McGwire was dedicated to baseball, that does not cover up the fact that he was cheating.  Doesn't matter if there was an alterior motive or not, that is just a ploy to get the spotlight off of the Chesterton coach.

 

Okay, so I keep seeing the 4 times thing thrown out there...what are we talking about here really?  If they said he could  lose .5lbs and he actually lost 2 whole lbs (the equivalent of a minimal workout)?

[maligned]

Wrong.  I do not assume anything.  You're going to be thirsty after a match even if you are not cutting an ounce. 

 

What I am saying is just one of the many reasons this would not work for a tournament.  Think about this:  you have a 3 mat tournament, you're going to have to have 3 scales--one for each mat.  If you know anything about scales you know they're not going to be consistent.  Furthermore, these scales are going to be stepped on hundreds of times in a day, which is going to mess up their calibrations.  Finally, if you did this at tournaments you would literally have kinds going to check their weight constantly, which would distract them from the matter at hand. 

 

This system will never happen, so my comment is neither here nor there.  However, the implementation of this idea is not as difficult as it seems.  Just have a staging area with the official who is currently rotated out weighing kids in (on 1, 2, 3 scales, whatever).  Just require one weigh-in before a kid's first match of the day only.  Even the first round of a super dual would not be that hard.  The kid reports to the table, walks to the staging area nearby, weighs in, and wrestles.  Have another "check your weight" scale near the wrestling area that has been pre-tested so that everyone knows if it's calibrated slightly differently.  Make weight, you wrestle.  Miss weight, you forfeit.  Weigh in with full uniform and allow no adjustments in gear as the kid walks on the mat (to prevent weight being hidden in shoes or singlets for kids trying to wrestle up).

[awood1]

agreed.. two lbs is a lil light.. not to mention as a former wrestler at franklin and at purdue for a year i would have to honestly say that cutting weight taught me many life lessons... setting weight goals and obtaining them.. responsibility in managing my weight.. self-control.. etc.. i could go on and on about this subject.. cutting weight is part of this sport and it is something that i beleive makes this sport great.. cutting weight and managing can tell a person a lot about themselves...

 

Okay, I am coming clean on 2 fronts...

 

A.) As a kid I was part of the wear a trash bag under 6 layers of clothes and spit in a cup in class all day generation.  Losing 8-10 lbs throughout a day was NO PROBLEM.  Running at lunch meant you may be able to stop at the water fountain between classes to rinse out your mouth.  There is absolutely no doubt that is hurt my health on several fronts.  Onset of juvenile diabetes, hyperthyroid, high blood pressure and cholesterol all have some relationship to the "old school" practices I and many others practiced.  When I hear of the "lessons learned" from showing the discipline of not eating or drinking, I shutter to think now that if I went a few hours past missing a meal I could go in to insulin shock and die.  How's that for a useless skill?  I still know how (and have the mental discipline too) to lose 10 lbs in a day....and possibly my life..OOPS.

 

and 2.) I am blessed to have a son that is a 3 sport athlete.  (He was previously a 4 sport athlete until he learned some life lessons about politics and dropped basketball)  Last year as a freshmen he competed at Varsity 171lbs for a good team (in CA, you don't know him) that won their League.  He advanced through league finishing 2nd and fell 1 match short of Masters (about the equivalent of losing at the SS ticket rd. in IN).  He is wrestling this year at 189 lbs. (191 at this pt. in the season with allowances) and has never weighed in at more than 185lbs.  Last weekend he wrestled well to place 3rd and qualify for Masters next weekend.  He has never had to lose more than 1lb. within 24 hrs. of a match.

 

So what is my point (other than bragging on my kid!)? is that he has never had to cut weight, but still loves the sport and as far as I can tell is learning the same things that I did.  Respect for the hard work of both you and your opponent, discipline and responsibility (he has to maintain a 3.5+ or drop the next seasons sport....house rule), and hard work (he knows he has to work his tail off to compete with guys that ONLY wrestle and are dropping weight to get there).  So when someone says "it is what makes our sport great" I cringe.

 

I agree with all of the folks that talk about the epidemic of fat lazy kids that we see every day.  But those aren't the kids that are in the room.  Hell, most teams have a HVY that wouldn't pass a healthy BMI test.  But sometimes I wonder if the residual effects of the "old school" mentality that a lot for us still carry around in our heads is really valid anymore.  I am not saying a kid should eat a box of Little Debbies at every weigh-in, but if a kid eats healthy and has a 10% body fat, is it really the smart thing to say, "If you get that to 7% you could wrestle 140 instead of 145!" as if that was they real key to their success.

 

 

[midget5589]

This is as stupid as laporte's coach getting reprimanded last year for having an old alum come wrestle at practice

[theckman]

This is as stupid as laporte's coach getting reprimanded last year for having an old alum come wrestle at practice

 

Stupid it may be but it's still the rule.  Our coach was suspended for the conference tournament this year for a weight loss issue.  A previous coach was suspended for a meet for allowing a former wrestler to come back over Winter Break and attend a practice.

[Pski]

I am going to throw my 2 cents into this.

Now everyone knows that rules change over the years, some for the good and some, well there just there. If the coach and the wrestler knowingly break the rules that the govern body has put in place. Each should have to pay the price for their endeavors. It is no different than anything we do in life.

 

We as parents, coaches, wrestlers, officials, and spectators all talk about having good ethics and good sportsmanship in our beloved sport.  So maybe it is time to implement some additional changes to the system.  We have come a long way with computers and the internet; we have all embrace this technology. With this being said, I believe there needs to be a data base put in place for weight management. It does not take much expertise to put together an excel spreadsheet that tracks each wrestle during the season. This how it could be done:

 

  Each school would put together a list of their wrestlers at the beginning of the season with what they currently weight and what weight class they want to wrestle for the season.  The coach would be responsible to add each individual in the data base. That is all they will be allowed to do.

 

The officials will have the biggest responsibility in this, since they are there to legitimist each kid?s weight before they wrestle. They would certify the scale before each weight in by placing an IHSAA certified weight on the scale and recording what the scale tells him. This force schools to keep their scale calibrated. Once the dual meet or tournament is over with, the officials would be the only ones that would enter the wrestler?s weight in the data base. As the official is entering the data in the system, it could be set up to immediately flag a wrestler for impeding on the allowed weight loss.  Then proper action can be taken against the wrestler and the coach.

 

[Insanoflex]

I am going to throw my 2 cents into this.

Now everyone knows that rules change over the years, some for the good and some, well there just there. If the coach and the wrestler knowingly break the rules that the govern body has put in place. Each should have to pay the price for their endeavors. It is no different than anything we do in life.

 

We as parents, coaches, wrestlers, officials, and spectators all talk about having good ethics and good sportsmanship in our beloved sport.  So maybe it is time to implement some additional changes to the system.  We have come a long way with computers and the internet; we have all embrace this technology. With this being said, I believe there needs to be a data base put in place for weight management. It does not take much expertise to put together an excel spreadsheet that tracks each wrestle during the season. This how it could be done:

 

  Each school would put together a list of their wrestlers at the beginning of the season with what they currently weight and what weight class they want to wrestle for the season.  The coach would be responsible to add each individual in the data base. That is all they will be allowed to do.

 

The officials will have the biggest responsibility in this, since they are there to legitimist each kid?s weight before they wrestle. They would certify the scale before each weight in by placing an IHSAA certified weight on the scale and recording what the scale tells him. This force schools to keep their scale calibrated. Once the dual meet or tournament is over with, the officials would be the only ones that would enter the wrestler?s weight in the data base. As the official is entering the data in the system, it could be set up to immediately flag a wrestler for impeding on the allowed weight loss.  Then proper action can be taken against the wrestler and the coach.

 

 

Actually the data base that the body fat measurements are entered into does have the capability to set up individual weight loss programs for each wrestler.  Also, coaches don't have access to the data base in order to discourage any data manipulation, so that part of the plan isn't feasible.

 

Furthermore, there is already a ton of paperwork that needs to attended to by the coach through the season and having an additional duty will probably not be very popular.

 

Finally, officials are just there to skin check, weigh-in, and referree.  They want no part of getting involved with coaches' weight loss tracking.