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Chesterton coach suspended


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This discussion has been around for a long time and in my opinion I think alot of people miss the point and dont realize it can be healthy for a kid to cut a little weight if done correctly. I am have a degree win exercise science and minor in nutrition and many issues with wrestlers is simple I am going to gorge my self on sunday and after weight ins and we are gonna play the game how much over can I be on monday before practice. Its a misguided game but anyone who wrestled remembered those days it was like a comp to see who could gain the most. If a kid comes into the wrestling room and doesnt lose some weight there is probably something wrong with his work ethic or nutrition or his practices are just not hard enough these kids should be down around 7 percent body fat to perform optimally and for todays youth that seems like such a hard cut because Mcdonalds cant factor into their season. So in my opinion these kids should lose a little when they come in up to 10 lbs or so depending on body fat. The other issue is how these guys are cutting weight. It is much safer to go to bed a lb or two over with some fluid and food in your belly and wake up and go for a run then it is to go two days without eating. I asked Tom Brands once about this question he said " No one on this team goes to bed with out eating and drinking some fluids because they need the fuel the next day for comepetition, we just wake up and get it off or get it off the night before through a workout. " If you get your weight off the night before after a meal and some fluids or the next morning your body is less likely to miss the weight then if you go two  or three days without anything. In a good hard drill you can lose up to a lb every 15 mins.

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Coaches should be aware that if they wrestle an athlete at a higher weight class in a match/tournament immediately prior to another competition there will be other coaches watching where that athlete weighs in the next time.  People don't get caught more often on this violation because they understand that people are watching.  What they are not watching are the weigh-in sheets in the wrestling room.  I would bet 85% of participants today started the week at weight that they would not be able to make-weight for the State Finals today by following a strict observation of the 1.5% rule.  Anyone disagree?

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PHS coach,

I totally agree. The "weight loss plan" is convoluted and confusing. In fact, on the online rules meeting this year, there was an example showing a weigh in sheet for one date and another for a date where the kid had lost more than 1.5% in a week.  It clearly stated that the wrestler was NOT ineligible, but this was not a qualifying weigh in. From that example, it is easy to believe that Coach Joll   (or any other coach that this happened to) might have thought that it was not illegal for the athlete to weigh in that much lighter, but simply that it did not count toward his qualifying weigh ins.  The rule (or it's ever-changing interpretation) is very confusing.  Personally, I feel that the old rule of having to make a weight for half of your total weigh ins (with a minimum of 5 at that weight) was a better way to insure that kids are keeping their weight regulated.  

 

Here's another thought: When all of this weight control started after the deaths 10-12 years ago, my former college coach told me " the only way to stop weight cutting is to put a scale next to the scoring table and have the wrestlers step on it as they check in and make weight in their full uniform."  It may sound crazy, but he's right! Adjust all of the weights 5 pounds higher to account for a uniform. No wrestler in his right mind would step on the mat to compete if he was dehydrated or hadn't eaten in two days! Thus, if one really wanted to drop a weight class, the way to do it would be to eat healthier and exercise more so you could make that weight fully hydrated. With today's technology and portable scales, it is becoming a more viable option.  I say let's try it!

 

 

My dad pushed for this in the 80's and was told controlling the weight was ridiculous, kids should be allowed to cut what they want. Now with these rules I say we push for it. When a 90 pound kid steps on the mat with a kid who obviously had gained back a lot of cut weight it looks more like a 103 vs a 119. If the IHSAA really cares about kids not fluctuating weight so much, this is the way to go. I doubt they will though.

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OOORRRR...they could avoid the whole "thirsty" thing and stop dehydrating themselves!?! It COULD be done in ANY tournament....you CHOSE to not agree because you assume that a kid is losing weight to wrestle.

 

Wrong.  I do not assume anything.  You're going to be thirsty after a match even if you are not cutting an ounce. 

 

What I am saying is just one of the many reasons this would not work for a tournament.  Think about this:  you have a 3 mat tournament, you're going to have to have 3 scales--one for each mat.  If you know anything about scales you know they're not going to be consistent.  Furthermore, these scales are going to be stepped on hundreds of times in a day, which is going to mess up their calibrations.  Finally, if you did this at tournaments you would literally have kinds going to check their weight constantly, which would distract them from the matter at hand. 

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Lets discuss the "bear" in the room! Yes there are some gray areas...... and yes there are some problems......... but the problem I have and I do NOT know the Chesterton coach. But if we go back to the article. The coach clearly stated that he violated the rules. That the "weight Loss management" was based upon the coach's ethics and honor. This coach has indicated that he has no honor or ethics. For this reason baseball has a steriod problem and for this reason wrestling has a "weight management" problem.  It was not a problem of misunderstanding the rules (or gray area) it was a total lack of respect for the spirit of the rules and the safety of his wrestlers.

 

Can someone explain how he can be allowed to coach next year? For in the eyes of this Grandfather - who wrestled and cut weight the wrong ways...... this coach's total disrespect of the spirit of the rules is just as dangerous as a coach who supplies steriods to the athletes.

 

And to indicate that every coach in every wrestling room does like wise is a slam on the GOOD coaches in this State that attempt to do right by the wrestlers! This coach and his attitude about ethics and honor is a slap in the face of wrestling!

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Wrestlers who are in training are the healthiest kids in school.

 

Wow comparing a wrestling coach to a coach who would supply his athletes with steroids seems to be a bit extreme. These coaches have all been there and most coaches especially in wrestling have their kids best interest at heart especially in a sport like this where sacrifice is so much a part. People can say all day long this sport or that sport is harder, but wrestling is by far the hardest high school sport in the nation bar none and weight cutting is a part of that and sometimes if the kid doesnt listen to his coach and gains all that weight what should the coach do just let him wrestle up every time he makes these bone head mistakes. Out policy is if you say you are gonna be there you better be there barring anything drastic but again this is not the 70s where 98 lbs started out at 130 these kids are not putting themselves in harms way or very few are you can tell by the physiques today. Like I said cutting some weight is good for these kids. sacrifice and making sure optimal fuel is going into their body is what it takes and if having to cut some extra weight because you were a bonehead and ate to pizza on sunday maybe next time you will learn and if not you should be benched.

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Lets discuss the "bear" in the room! Yes there are some gray areas...... and yes there are some problems......... but the problem I have and I do NOT know the Chesterton coach. But if we go back to the article. The coach clearly stated that he violated the rules. That the "weight Loss management" was based upon the coach's ethics and honor. This coach has indicated that he has no honor or ethics. For this reason baseball has a steriod problem and for this reason wrestling has a "weight management" problem.  It was not a problem of misunderstanding the rules (or gray area) it was a total lack of respect for the spirit of the rules and the safety of his wrestlers.

 

Can someone explain how he can be allowed to coach next year? For in the eyes of this Grandfather - who wrestled and cut weight the wrong ways...... this coach's total disrespect of the spirit of the rules is just as dangerous as a coach who supplies steriods to the athletes.

 

And to indicate that every coach in every wrestling room does like wise is a slam on the GOOD coaches in this State that attempt to do right by the wrestlers! This coach and his attitude about ethics and honor is a slap in the face of wrestling!

 

Very good point. "Everybody does it" is just rationalizing his lack of ethics and trying to spread the blame.  Kids losing 6% of their bodyweight are not the healthiest kids in school or the weight management plan would allow for 6% loss per week.

 

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I still think you are trying to put to much blame on the coach and not enough on the kid. Yes the coach should have rules in place , and yes the coach should monitor weight but every coach should make his kid move up if he comes in to much over after a weekend. I feel not, I think you bust that kid harder, oh you are 10 over guess what you get to wrestle every kid on the team today in a fish bowl because you cant keep your weight under control. Come on guys this is what seperates our sports from swimming and football. Not only do you have to be in top physical shape but you have to make the right weight class and you have to do it every week. I pride myself in the fact that I made it through high school and college and had to cut weight because that is something no one else can understand, no one else can understand our sacrifice as wrestlers and the coach knows this. He knows his kids ability I mean I use to lose 6 lbs in one practice.

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Wow comparing a wrestling coach to a coach who would supply his athletes with steroids seems to be a bit extreme. These coaches have all been there and most coaches especially in wrestling have their kids best interest at heart especially in a sport like this where sacrifice is so much a part. People can say all day long this sport or that sport is harder, but wrestling is by far the hardest high school sport in the nation bar none and weight cutting is a part of that and sometimes if the kid doesnt listen to his coach and gains all that weight what should the coach do just let him wrestle up every time he makes these bone head mistakes. Out policy is if you say you are gonna be there you better be there barring anything drastic but again this is not the 70s where 98 lbs started out at 130 these kids are not putting themselves in harms way or very few are you can tell by the physiques today. Like I said cutting some weight is good for these kids. sacrifice and making sure optimal fuel is going into their body is what it takes and if having to cut some extra weight because you were a bonehead and ate to pizza on sunday maybe next time you will learn and if not you should be benched.

 

The kid in question was not benched...he wrestled up.  This begs the question, did that kid have a "qualifying' weigh-in wherehe made scratch weight??  It sounds like his first attempt to make scratch weight was with a non-qualifying weigh-in.

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I still think you are trying to put to much blame on the coach and not enough on the kid. Yes the coach should have rules in place , and yes the coach should monitor weight but every coach should make his kid move up if he comes in to much over after a weekend. I feel not, I think you bust that kid harder, oh you are 10 over guess what you get to wrestle every kid on the team today in a fish bowl because you cant keep your weight under control. Come on guys this is what seperates our sports from swimming and football. Not only do you have to be in top physical shape but you have to make the right weight class and you have to do it every week. I pride myself in the fact that I made it through high school and college and had to cut weight because that is something no one else can understand, no one else can understand our sacrifice as wrestlers and the coach knows this. He knows his kids ability I mean I use to lose 6 lbs in one practice.

 

The coach weighed him in and wrestled him knowingly breaking the rules.  All the blame for the mismanagement goes on the coach.  He doesn't weigh in and doesn't go on the mat if he is not following the plan.

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The coach said he violated the rule many times. I am not sure what that means. If he "Just did not the follow the rule that is wrong". If however he did "not follow the rule"   because of the fact that some wrestlers do not loose exactly the same  amount of weight each week that would be impossible for a coach or the wrestler to follow. I dont wrestle any more and my weight can fluctuate more than 1  1/2 % a week without even trying to loose weight.  I highly doubt that anyone that tries to loose weight, lets say for a 4 week period loses exactly the same amount each week. According to discussion on other threads the wrestler is only allowed to loose part, say 3 days worth, between a tournament if there are 3 days between. Is anyone really that perfect with weight loss.So lets say the plan says you can loose 5 lbs. a week does anyone really loose exactly 0.71 lbs a day. I dont think so. It seems the more consistent way to moniter this would be to allow a wrestler to reach a LOW weight by averageing a weight over a several week period. I doubt looseing 20 lbs over a month would hurt anyone if you use the example above. If that wrestler lost 7, 6, 4 ,3 lbs a week for that month it would not be over the 1  1/2 % of weight. the weight should be monitered weekly, i mean written down somewhere. adjusting the % lost everyday is just not reasonable.

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The coach said he violated the rule many times. I am not sure what that means. If he "Just did not the follow the rule that is wrong". If however he did "not follow the rule"  because of the fact that some wrestlers do not loose exactly the same  amount of weight each week that would be impossible for a coach or the wrestler to follow. I dont wrestle any more and my weight can fluctuate more than 1  1/2 % a week without even trying to loose weight.  I highly doubt that anyone that tries to loose weight, lets say for a 4 week period loses exactly the same amount each week. According to discussion on other threads the wrestler is only allowed to loose part, say 3 days worth, between a tournament if there are 3 days between. Is anyone really that perfect with weight loss.So lets say the plan says you can loose 5 lbs. a week does anyone really loose exactly 0.71 lbs a day. I dont think so. It seems the more consistent way to moniter this would be to allow a wrestler to reach a LOW weight by averageing a weight over a several week period. I doubt looseing 20 lbs over a month would hurt anyone if you use the example above. If that wrestler lost 7, 6, 4 ,3 lbs a week for that month it would not be over the 1  1/2 % of weight. the weight should be monitered weekly, i mean written down somewhere. adjusting the % lost everyday is just not reasonable.

 

 

The kid was allowed to wrestle after losing 4 times the weight allowed by the weight management plan. That is not a hazy interpretation of the rule, that is blatant disregard.

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I agree this case may be just flat out a violation of the rules, but I guess what I am asking about is there any wrestler that lost exactly the same amount of weight each week?  Each day?  I doubt it.  I know some just dont follow the rules and they need to be dealt with. But the rule does need to make sence.

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Sorry . I wrerstled in a time when you could cut 10 lbs a day if needed. I know that it bad for these young men and women to do so I think a rule to protect them wrestlers is a good thing. i think the currant rule in place needs to be tweeked to be reasonble.

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Sorry . I wrerstled in a time when you could cut 10 lbs a day if needed. I know that it bad for these young men and women to do so I think a rule to protect them wrestlers is a good thing. i think the currant rule in place needs to be tweeked to be reasonble.

 

No question about the need for more clarity and if this was a case where we were talking about tenths of percentages, I would probably side with the coach.  Not so in this case.

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I still go back to the "weight management" is a part of the "coach's ethics"!!!!! He stated he violated the rules. Not that he was in the "gray" part of the rule. That he has violated and did violate the rule. He showed that he has NO ethics or honor!!!

 

Baseball problem was not a rule problem with steriods. It was not a rule violation when Sammy, Barry, Mark used steriods it wasn't a rule violation it was an ethics problem. Wrestlings ethic problem is the "weight management" system. The coach did NOT have a problem with the gray areas. He just did not follow a "ethics" situation that has been in place for what 7-8-9 years????

 

I was around when it did not matter how much weight you cut in a day, a week, or at all. I was also around when steriods was used in High School and college. We have learned a lot since the "good" ol days. But for a coach to pick out what rules, or which coaching ethical situations he will or will not attempt to follow is not good for our sport. I to would normally fight for the coach, official, and/or wrestler. But in this case the coach is wrong. And I do not feel the punshment was enough.

 

My question stands; How can the Chesterton Schoolboard, IHSAA, parents permitt this guy to continue coaching? He has no ethics and did not care he placed his wrestlers in danager.................

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So far in the past couple weeks the IHSAA has said it's ok for a wrestler to violate the weight plan by not punishing him and it's ok to be overweight by letting another wrestler not make weight and wrestle anyway. Are the rules just a fuzzy guideline that can be violated at whim now?

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What is wrong with the coach stepping up and taking the blame for his student/wrestler. The chesterton coach isvery dedicated to wrestling and I am sure that he had the best of intentions when interpreting the rule. I am sure that he is not the only coach that interpreted the rule the same way. Was there an alterative motive behind turning him in. Would the coach be turned in if the wrestler was not one of the better wrestlers in his weight class?

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What is wrong with the coach stepping up and taking the blame for his student/wrestler. The chesterton coach isvery dedicated to wrestling and I am sure that he had the best of intentions when interpreting the rule. I am sure that he is not the only coach that interpreted the rule the same way. Was there an alterative motive behind turning him in. Would the coach be turned in if the wrestler was not one of the better wrestlers in his weight class?

 

The best intentions line might work if the kid were off by a tenth or two.  The kid lost 4 times the amount allowed and was weighed in and put on the mat by the coach.  This is not a case of the coach taking the blame....It was HIS mistake.  The IHSAA ruled that the kid could wrestle.  Mark McGwire was dedicated to baseball, that does not cover up the fact that he was cheating.  Doesn't matter if there was an alterior motive or not, that is just a ploy to get the spotlight off of the Chesterton coach.

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