semi-state proposal

[faurote96]

1.  Go back to taking the top 3 from regional.  The 3rd/4th match at regional used to be much more intense and a wrestler had to win  more than 1 match at regional to qualify for semi-state.  I have not heard of too many people in the wrestling community who wanted to take 4 from regional in the first place.  I would be interested to see how many 4th placers qualified for state.

 

2.  Add Wrestle-backs at semi-state after the first round.

 

            Round 1 ? 2nd v. 3rd (loser eliminated from tournament) (56 matches)

            Round 2 ? 1st v. winner round 1 (loser goes into wrestle-backs) (56 matches)

            Round 3 ? Championship semifinals (28 matches)/ round 2 loser wrestle-backs (28 matches)

            Round 4 ? semifinal losers v. wrestle-back winners (28 matches)

            Round 5 ? championship (14 matches)/ 3rd & 4th matches (14 matches)

 

            Total matches = 224 (Current format total matches = 224)

 

Would the wrestling community or IHSAA be willing to trade 56 semi-state qualifiers per site for a better tournament that rewards the "better" wrestlers and would take no more time, effort, or money?

 

[beachbum21]

WOW, well done.  Who would not want to see this.  With no extra matches at SS Indiana could strengthen to State Finals tournament by improving the odds on getting the BEST kids there to begin with.  Where do we vote????

[CHS Fan]

Danny Abu-shehad, Danny Rodriquez and Joe Gallegos were all 4 seeds coming out of regionals, and they all qaulified for state! Gallegos will make it out the first round as he has already beaten Grubb early this year 7-2, i know it doesnt mean to much though, thats why they wrestle

[duck_and_run]

I totally agree with what your saying.  It is a viable option with no real hinderances to the system.  The only drawback I could see would be a little bit of revenue.  If you cut the 4th place finishers out you may not get the 9 dollars a person for those schools or parents of the individuals.   Other then that its a simple solution for a problem that many have been complaining about for years.  

 

FYI-  I personally like the ticket round how it is as a fan, but this is a great solution for anyone who proposes wrestlebacks.  ALso four out of regionals waters down the accomplishment of being a semi state qualifier.  

[Pug]

Thiswill actually give you 2 "ticket rounds". Winners of the semi finals will qualify and then the winners of the consolation semis would qualify. This system would eliminate those kids who can't bounce back from a tough semi final loss. I like it.

[carrer121]

Danny Abu-shehad, Danny Rodriquez and Joe Gallegos were all 4 seeds coming out of regionals, and they all qaulified for state! Gallegos will make it out the first round as he has already beaten Grubb early this year 7-2, i know it doesnt mean to much though, thats why they wrestle

WOW that doesnt mean any thing

[Rookies03]

Your proposal is a good idea but it would also depend on how each site runs the rounds.  Sometimes two mats are removed after the 2nd round which makes the tournament run longer.  If 4 mats were used until the finals/3rd4th place matches then I think it could work.  Also, I wonder what coaches think if semis and consolations are run at same time or if the new ticket round was run on 4 mats.  A team could have several wrestlers competing at the same time for a chance to go to state.

 

Rd 1 56 matches on 4 mats (basically a dual meet on each mat approx 1 1/2 hours)

Rd 2 56 matches on 4 mats (approx 1 1/2 hours)

Rd 3 56 mathces on 4 mats (approx 1 1/2 hours)

Rd 4 28 matches on 4 mats (approx 45 mins)

Rd 5 28 matches on 2 mats (who cares its the finals!!!)

 

or

 

Rd 1 56 matches on 4 mats (basically a dual meet on each mat approx 1 1/2 hours)

Rd 2 56 matches on 4 mats (approx 1 1/2 hours)

Rd 3 28 matches on 2 mats (approx 1 1/2 hours) (semis winners bracket)

Rd 4 28 matches on 2 mats (approx 1 1/2 hours) (consols)

Rd 5 28 matches on 2 mats (approx 1 1/2 hours) (consols)

Rd 6 28 matches on 2 mats (who cares its the finals!!!!)

 

You could combine Rd 3 and 4 on 4 mats but would probably need to wait for each wt class to be done before starting the next so coaches dont have multiple wrestlers and officials can rotate.  This would add atleast 30-45 mins.

 

This might not add matches but could add 2+ hours to the day depending on how it was run.  

 

That being said I like the idea.

[duck_and_run]

Why not wrestle all four mats in the finals with placing the top 8.  Get a few more ribbons and make the crowd stay arround for an extra couple of hours creating more revenue and what not.  Makes sense to me anyways.  It would add extra matches but not extra time.

[CHS Fan]

What do u mean it doesnt mean anything? Thats a big deal espicially coming out of the Merillville semi state! Everybody deserves the chance to participate, even the #4 SEED!, but thats if they make it, and obviously these #4 seeds did, u can never say that taking the #4 seed out will make for "better" wrestling, cause anything could happen on any given day

[duck_and_run]

I think he means taking 3 out of regionals instead of 4 and having wrestle backs in semi hurt less good wrestlers opportunities of going to state.  Its a much more rare to have a 4 seed from regionals make it out then to have a kid get drawn into a tough bracket who is a top level wrestler.

[beachbum21]

Everybody deserves the chance to participate, even the #4 SEED!

 

I guarnatee you that we (our state tournament as it is currently ran) are leaving better wrestlers behind by not having wrestle backs at SS than we would be by leaving the 4th best kid home at each regional.  The goal is to get the 4 best kids out of each SS to wrestle at STATE.  Not, lets see how many better kids will be left behind by bad luck draws at SS.  

[CHS Fan]

Well maybe if they were the best then they would be in the top 4, no one tells them to get the third or fourth seed at regionals

[CHS Fan]

I understand where everybody is coming from though. . . but i like the new format, there is no possible way i would vite against it, the same amount of matches and time for both frmats, im just a fan of the top four

[beachbum21]

Well maybe if they were the best then they would be in the top 4, no one tells them to get the third or fourth seed at regionals

 

I am not saying you are but that is just STUPID. Take a look at 135 coming out of Jay County Regional, Hiestand wins, Faroute gets 2nd.  Faroute draws into Norton, arguably (and proven) the best kid at SS.  Faroute loses in OT, it is easy to argue that we (our state tournament as it is set up today) leaves one of the best 135 lbrs behind.  

 

Faroute beat Hiestand at Team Regional, what if he had won at Individual regional, then it is Hiestand vs. Norton to advance.  This is a perfect example for wrestle backs.....along with many others.

[CHS Fan]

Yes, this is correct, your right. . .

[aoberlin]

It would cost them more money though.  Think about the fact that there will be 56 less wrestlers at semi-state.  Estimate at least 2 people paying $9.50 to get in to see the wrestlers that equals $6272.00 now X that by 4 semi-states and your looking at $25,088 state wide that they probably get  a decent cut of.  And this a low ball estimate.   Why do you think they did it in the first place?  It certainly wasn't for the kids or they would have wrestle backs.  Remember their only goal is to find a state champion at each weight class, taking 4 from each regional surely does not help with this in their minds.  

 

Oh yeah also don't forget about the money for buying food and drinks.

 

Now that I think of it.  If we could find a way to show them that they would make more money from having wrestling backs we may have a chance.

[base]

How were the brackets previously setup when there were 3 qualifiers from each regional?

 

16 participants coming in makes a perfect bracket -- #1's face #4's    and #2's face #3's.

 

With only 12 participants, how did they do the bracketing before they began taking 4 to semistate?

[aoberlin]

#1 had a bye.  Which I felt wasn't necessarily fair for the #1 because anyone who wrestles knows their first match usually isn't their best.  This is why I don't mind a 4th placer at semi-state.

[MattM]

As mentioned before the IHSAA doesn't like the idea of wrestle-backs over top 4 from regionals because

 

Sending Top 4 adds parents/relatives/friends/teammates but in seats and that means more money for them.

Sending Top 3 and doing wrestle-backs means no extra revenue.

 

This is mostly why they did not like the idea of wrestle-backs for several years saying it would just add more time and their was no need to keep giving people extra chances to move on.  But then without much of a push at all they all of a sudden atted Top 4 from regionals which did add much more time to the event and gave many wrestlers another chance to move on.  

 

Not I'm fine with taking Top 4 to semi-state (other than the time it takes), but not because the the reasoning or lack of reasoning the IHSAA has given.  I would just as much if not more want to see a round of wrestle-backs to help make sure the top guys make it to state and also get the right place so their state matchup is the as correct as we can make it.

[billy barty]

#1 had a bye.  Which I felt wasn't necessarily fair for the #1 because anyone who wrestles knows their first match usually isn't their best.  This is why I don't mind a 4th placer at semi-state.

 

This is one of the reasons they changed it!

[beachbum21]

Are there any attendance records available that would support that the IHSAA is really making more money since the advent of advancing 4 out of regional.  Just curious, if they are making additional money, how much is it actually?  Just looking around the arena it does not appear to have made much of an inpact on the overall attendance.  Has it been 2 years now that 4 have advance out of regional?

[mtv2112]

Are there any attendance records available that would support that the IHSAA is really making more money since the advent of advancing 4 out of regional.  Just curious, if they are making additional money, how much is it actually?  Just looking around the arena it does not appear to have made much of an inpact on the overall attendance.  Has it been 2 years now that 4 have advance out of regional?

 

Those statistics would be interesting.  I would submit that more people watching wrestling is better for the sport.  Wrestle backs might be great for the hardcore fans, but it certainly does not do anything to expose the sport to more people.  Doing things for the hardcore fans is sort of like preaching to the choir.  We need to make wrestling more accessible if we want more support from the community.  Yes, this might be a money grab as well.  Wrestling will only benefit as the money becomes significant.  I also don't think that state champion material is being knocked out in the first round of the semi-state.  Maybe potential lower placers are being knocked out, but not champions.

[maolsen]

I guarnatee you that we (our state tournament as it is currently ran) are leaving better wrestlers behind by not having wrestle backs at SS than we would be by leaving the 4th best kid home at each regional.  The goal is to get the 4 best kids out of each SS to wrestle at STATE.  Not, lets see how many better kids will be left behind by bad luck draws at SS.  

 

 

that is true, you wanna get the best 4 kids out, but still, lets say someone is in a very tough reginal, hmm, lets say rochester 215 per say... where there are arguably 4 guys good enough to compete at state, and one of them takes 4th, like in Gallegos's case... so because he was in a solid weight class where at any givin day number 2-4 in that sectional/regional could lose to the other, he doesn't even deserve a chance? when at semi-state he comes out and takes 3rd? the reason the good wrestler got a bad draw is either him or another good wrestler lost at regionals, and considering there are some regionals who are weaker then others, you might get a situation where one's number 4 is better then anothers number 1... im just saying its not fair when there are situations where 4th seeds have shown they can compete, and even qualify, and you wanna make it so they don't even have a chance

[Silence Dogood]

I also don't think that state champion material is being knocked out in the first round of the semi-state.  Maybe potential lower placers are being knocked out, but not champions.

 

Billy Baker, Josh Birge, and Dan Jankowski are a few examples of state champ caliber wrestlers that didn't qualify for state because they were matched up with an eventual state champ or runner up in the ticket round.

 

 

[getstuck]

The 4 from regional is a big deal... but what i hate is seeing the guys wrestling for 3rd and 4th only wrestling a 1 minute first period.. i mean thats stupid.. if a guy is great on his feet i feel like this puts them at somewhat of a disadvantage.. i mean anyone who has been around the sport long enough can tell you that the 3rd and 4th place match is huge seeding wise.. i just don't get it.. especially when the 3rd and 4th mat waits for the 1st and 2nd place match to get over with anyways..