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So much for small teams not being able to compete


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I wrestled abd played football for castle. 5a school. We wrestled memorial (3a) and mater dei (2a). I loved the competition with mater dei because they were the best competition for us. I don't think they were complaining about wrestling a bigger school. Ok so you say they are private. What about stein or weiss? They are from 2a or 3a schools. I would think they enjoy going up against bigger schools for the best competition. Every year there are people from smaller schools win the title.

 

I van see your arguments for a classed team state. It makes sense. But my opinion is that one class is better. Just my opinion

Again this is an example of what the general consensus is from participants in the sport. And most fans I might say. GOOD POST!

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We go right back to the original post here, those poor 40+ states that have classes will never be able to repeat the accomplishments of the schools mentioned here. And to minimalize these schools feats with the pro class ,is taking it to a level I can't be apart of.

 

It is this post where I felt you were saying you would boycott the sport if it went class.  If having class is taking to a level you can't be a part of that is akin to a boycott is it not?

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It is this post where I felt you were saying you would boycott the sport if it went class.  If having class is taking to a level you can't be a part of that is akin to a boycott is it not?

Well Karl, back in the early 70's at good old I.U. I protested the Vietnam war and boycotted things every day. It

was the thing to do in those days. Haven't done a lot of protesting lately, what about you? any boycotts? protesting?

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Im not sure i can say the coaching is exactly applicable. Look at Castle. Coach Harmon has been there forever and im sure he is there because he loves the sport. Bosse in the SIAC never has a full team but they still come out and compete and im sure the coach there, even though he works his but off, isnt getting paid much.

 

As for athletes playing multiple sports and not focusing on wrestling i cant accept that as an argument. I played two sports and i still found time in the summer for wrestling. I even used me one week off football to go to a wrestling camp. All three welch brothers play baseball almost year round while still doing wrestling. Weikle, Rosebrock, Daughtery brothers are all football players and are ranked in their weight classes. PLaying multiple sports can help because of the weightlifting and staying in shape. It give you an advantage.

 

Numbers i can understand though there are exceptions, but there is more 1 on 1 time with coaches too. THats always a plus. Castle sometimes only has 8 jv guys. Every year it changes. Some years there are guys wrestling one weight class up so they can be in the line up.

 

Quality changes every four years. Thats hard to change. But you can have guys come back to help over breaks. I know plenty of people who stop by the wrestling room over christmas and thanksgiving (when they can) to give their old practice parteners some help or just a change up. No matter what you are at a disadvatage wrestling the same guys over and over.

 

THose are some great stories about your friends and that is good that they have been able to help the feeder systems. But thats where it should change. Start improving the quality of the feeders before you change the high school. Also there are club teams all around for college. Many schools in the Big Ten have them. We have been trying at IU to get one for a while and it looks like it will happen (lets hope). There is plenty of chances for people to walk on from the clubs and even not there are plenty of people who still want the sport but dont have the time to work at it on a DI level. There is a huge wealth of SQ and SSQ here at IU that are looking to improve themselves. And if they still wish to be involved they can take that back with the to feeder systems and jr high programs when they are home or when they graduate.

 

There are other ways to fix high school wrestling (not that there is much wrong with it) other than classing individual tournament.

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Im not sure i can say the coaching is exactly applicable. Look at Castle. Coach Harmon has been there forever and im sure he is there because he loves the sport. Bosse in the SIAC never has a full team but they still come out and compete and im sure the coach there, even though he works his but off, isnt getting paid much.

Castle is not a small school, they have almost 1800 students.  Bosse, while still technically a big school has about 900 less students.

 

As for athletes playing multiple sports and not focusing on wrestling i cant accept that as an argument. I played two sports and i still found time in the summer for wrestling. I even used me one week off football to go to a wrestling camp. All three welch brothers play baseball almost year round while still doing wrestling. Weikle, Rosebrock, Daughtery brothers are all football players and are ranked in their weight classes. PLaying multiple sports can help because of the weightlifting and staying in shape. It give you an advantage.

As I said you can make exceptions to the rule, but I would much rather my kids wrestle nine months of the year than four.

 

Numbers i can understand though there are exceptions, but there is more 1 on 1 time with coaches too. THats always a plus. Castle sometimes only has 8 jv guys. Every year it changes. Some years there are guys wrestling one weight class up so they can be in the line up.

As I said, there are less coaches at the small school level.  We have two paid positions at Garrett with two volunteer assistants that come in a couple times a week.  When you have 20-25 kids on the team, they aren't getting any more 1 on 1 time than a kid at a big school that has 40 kids on the team and 4 coaches on staff.  You also need to look at the quality of the assistant coaches too.  Many times there are people that are getting paid more to be an assistant at a big school than they would be paid to be a head coach at a smaller school.

 

Quality changes every four years. Thats hard to change. But you can have guys come back to help over breaks. I know plenty of people who stop by the wrestling room over christmas and thanksgiving (when they can) to give their old practice parteners some help or just a change up. No matter what you are at a disadvatage wrestling the same guys over and over.

Every school has upturns and downturns with talent in the school, no question.  But at a big school it is less noticeable when you have more kids to choose from.

 

THose are some great stories about your friends and that is good that they have been able to help the feeder systems. But thats where it should change. Start improving the quality of the feeders before you change the high school. Also there are club teams all around for college. Many schools in the Big Ten have them. We have been trying at IU to get one for a while and it looks like it will happen (lets hope). There is plenty of chances for people to walk on from the clubs and even not there are plenty of people who still want the sport but dont have the time to work at it on a DI level. There is a huge wealth of SQ and SSQ here at IU that are looking to improve themselves. And if they still wish to be involved they can take that back with the to feeder systems and jr high programs when they are home or when they graduate.

 

There are other ways to fix high school wrestling (not that there is much wrong with it) other than classing individual tournament.

The biddy programs in Indiana don't have the quality of coaches those ones do unless it is a high school assistant or head coach.  I doubt there are many biddy coaches in the state that only coach a biddy program and was college wrestler.  Instead we have a wrestling dad coaching the program that only knows a kindergarten killer and headlock.

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Well Karl, back in the early 70's at good old I.U. I protested the Vietnam war and boycotted things every day. It

was the thing to do in those days. Haven't done a lot of protesting lately, what about you? any boycotts? protesting?

 

What in the world are you talking about?  I took your direct quote about not being a part of a classed system.  That is a boycott.

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I wasnt saying that castle is a small school. What i was saying is that it IS a big school but the coach is there because the love of the sport, not because he was recruited for the position. Same with Reitz. High caliber team with a coach that has been there for a while.

 

All coaches want their kids to do their sport 9 months out of the year so it is hard as a tug of war between sports. Its the kids decision whether he wants to put the time in. THere are single sport athletes who only compete during season with little to no off season.

 

Castle has a lot of Volunteer Assistant Coaches. Not everyone gets a paid position. Basketball is going to get more attention than wrestling. This is the case in Indiana and probably always will be. Its tough but thats how it is. Wrestling thrives because there isnt another sport like it. PEople love the sport and do it because they love it. Not because they were a state champ or that there is a lot of money involved (you know there isnt).

 

Just because a school is big means that they have a lot of kids to choose from. Bosse High School once again. Almost a "big school" by your standards (about 850-900 students) but they can even fill a full varsity squad. Its people that are interested in the sport need to see it when they are young.

 

Ok so what needs to happen is to start getting kids interested in Jr High or younger when seasons do not overlap and kids can try a sport. SO work on keeping kids involved in a program after they graduate high school and doing club teams in college or even helping at a local college. I met a guy my age (20)who i met when i was helping teach a class. He coaching Bedford's high school team to help fill a gap. He has nothing to work with but he is still doing it. He is trying to retain kids and make things fun for them. Has he wrestled at the college level? No. Could he? Probably. He decided to help a program because he LOVES THE SPORT. Keep wrestling fun and the athletes will develop. His kids dont care if they win a state title. They are more focused on getting better. I wish him luck because its a long raod for him but he can revive a program. He doesnt need a class system to do that

 

There isnt an overnight fix. Having people who have had success share it with younger kids. Show the youth that there is more to wrestling than a headlock. The other problem is wrestling take body awareness and coordination. Some young kids cant do a single leg for a couple of years. This isnt basketball when you can throw a ball in the air and get lucky

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Well Karl, back in the early 70's at good old I.U. I protested the Vietnam war and boycotted things every day. It

was the thing to do in those days. Haven't done a lot of protesting lately, what about you? any boycotts? protesting?

 

I boycotted McDonald's when they started putting less salt and pig fat on their fried...but I'm off the wagon again.

 

The bottom line is that there is a reason other sports have classes.  The reason is based on common sense and fairness.  A small school kid who wins a state championship is awesome...no question.  But, I believe in offering opportunities for success to those who work for it.  I think that's what class wrestling does.  I also think it makes a hell of a lot of sense for team championships. 

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I wasnt saying that castle is a small school. What i was saying is that it IS a big school but the coach is there because the love of the sport, not because he was recruited for the position. Same with Reitz. High caliber team with a coach that has been there for a while.

Ok, I was wondering if you honestly thought Castle was small.  There have been many coaches that I have witnessed go from a small school to a bigger school for various reasons.  Some of them include the things I listed such as getting paid more in a bigger school system, better benefits, but most of all a better chance at success.  If you look at sports like football, the great small school coaches stay at their schools because they have a level playing field to coach on. 

 

All coaches want their kids to do their sport 9 months out of the year so it is hard as a tug of war between sports. Its the kids decision whether he wants to put the time in. THere are single sport athletes who only compete during season with little to no off season.

I understand that, but I am making a generalization in that at a bigger school you play a lot less tug-o-war with other coaches and sports.  If the 14 starters on our wrestling team did not play football they would lose 10 starters(a couple play both ways).  At a small school its less of a tug-o-war act and more of a juggling act with the kids.  We have to plan our camps around the football camps and baseball games and everything else.

 

Castle has a lot of Volunteer Assistant Coaches. Not everyone gets a paid position. Basketball is going to get more attention than wrestling. This is the case in Indiana and probably always will be. Its tough but thats how it is. Wrestling thrives because there isnt another sport like it. PEople love the sport and do it because they love it. Not because they were a state champ or that there is a lot of money involved (you know there isnt).

I agree, but people are going to give back if they have a positive experience in the sport.  For some a positive experience will be being a part of a successful team, for others it will mean going to state. 

 

Just because a school is big means that they have a lot of kids to choose from. Bosse High School once again. Almost a "big school" by your standards (about 850-900 students) but they can even fill a full varsity squad. Its people that are interested in the sport need to see it when they are young.

I assume you meant can't field a full team.  Class wrestling is not the magic formula, but I truly believe it would help tremendously.  Maybe Bosse's coaches would be more motivated if they got another 25% kids to state or close to state. Maybe more kids would be interested also.

 

Ok so what needs to happen is to start getting kids interested in Jr High or younger when seasons do not overlap and kids can try a sport. SO work on keeping kids involved in a program after they graduate high school and doing club teams in college or even helping at a local college. I met a guy my age (20)who i met when i was helping teach a class. He coaching Bedford's high school team to help fill a gap. He has nothing to work with but he is still doing it. He is trying to retain kids and make things fun for them. Has he wrestled at the college level? No. Could he? Probably. He decided to help a program because he LOVES THE SPORT. Keep wrestling fun and the athletes will develop. His kids dont care if they win a state title. They are more focused on getting better. I wish him luck because its a long raod for him but he can revive a program. He doesnt need a class system to do that

Would those kids be more likely to seek out camps, ISWA tournaments, RTC's, etc if they were having some more success such as getting to regional or the semi-state levels?  I believe so. 

 

There isnt an overnight fix. Having people who have had success share it with younger kids. Show the youth that there is more to wrestling than a headlock. The other problem is wrestling take body awareness and coordination. Some young kids cant do a single leg for a couple of years. This isnt basketball when you can throw a ball in the air and get lucky

I totally agree, classing is not an end all, be all fix.  I do believe, however that it would help stimulate the growth in the areas that are truly struggling right now.

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Here are the facts Ohio has class wrestling and has the exact same problems Indiana has.  They have the same teams in the finals every single year.  Class wrestling people will try and say Ohio has more elete college level wrestlers.  I can tell you with out a doubt that it is not because they classed there state.  There is no possible way that lowering the competition will help elete wrestlers.

 

Class wrestling people also say that it will make small schools better because they will have more team achievements.  The fact is there are several sectionals that are weak in Indiana.  You would think by this same logic that teams would get better over time because they have a chance at winning sectional year in and year out.  There are currently sectionals in Indiana whos top team is rated 109, 95, 85, 71, and 63.  This tells me that the parity the class wrestling guys talk about will not happen.

 

Another thing that bothers me are the guys who are bringing up class wrestling.  Y2's team he helps out with beat several big schools this weekend in route to a second place finish at sectionals.  They finished behind 2A Whitcko.  Meanwhile they beat the best team in the SAC Bishop Dwenger(4A), they also beat the second best team in the always tough NHC Carroll(Another 4a).  He will try and say there not competitive with these schools year in and year out, but they have been close ever since Garrett got there program turned arround. 

 

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Here are the facts Ohio has class wrestling and has the exact same problems Indiana has.  They have the same teams in the finals every single year.  Class wrestling people will try and say Ohio has more elete college level wrestlers.  I can tell you with out a doubt that it is not because they classed there state.  There is no possible way that lowering the competition will help elete wrestlers.

 

Class wrestling people also say that it will make small schools better because they will have more team achievements.  The fact is there are several sectionals that are weak in Indiana.  You would think by this same logic that teams would get better over time because they have a chance at winning sectional year in and year out.  There are currently sectionals in Indiana whos top team is rated 109, 95, 85, 71, and 63.  This tells me that the parity the class wrestling guys talk about will not happen.

 

Another thing that bothers me are the guys who are bringing up class wrestling.  Y2's team he helps out with beat several big schools this weekend in route to a second place finish at sectionals.  They finished behind 2A Whitcko.  Meanwhile they beat the best team in the SAC Bishop Dwenger(4A), they also beat the second best team in the always tough NHC Carroll(Another 4a).  He will try and say there not competitive with these schools year in and year out, but they have been close ever since Garrett got there program turned arround. 

Amen!

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My favorite class wrestling arugment is that small school atheletes have to play other sports to keep there programs going.  This may be true but several state champions are multisport atheletes.  Y2 will try and say I am just picking out exceptions to the rules, but last year Duckworth, Baker, Chalfant,  and Shewsberry I believe all were multisport atheletes.  Thats at least 25% of the state champions last year.  I also do not no a reason in the world that a coach wouldn't encourage other sports. I mean they can still get mat time but every single sport played by an athelete make them more prepared for the wrestling season.  Football hits the wieghts hard, cross coutry and track build endurance, soccer and tennis build endurance and coordination.  I would much rather have a wrestling team full of cross country runners and football players then a team that comes in for 4 hours of optional practice a week.  Thats being generous for an off season routine.  I would go as far to say having multisport atheletes may be a small schools biggest asset.

 

Lastly if you want to have a good program its not going to come in 6 years Y2.  Rome was not built in a day and niether is a competitive wrestling program.  Talk to me when you have had a solid youth program in place for ten years and we will see the improvement.  I have seen photos of how many youth wrestlers evansville and mishawaka has and then I see there success and right there you can see what it takes to have a good program.

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How many small schools made it to state this year?  I don't think I can count that high.

 

Depending on where the cutoff is 14 of 32 were small schools, 1 of the 8 going to state is small. If the playing field were level it should be half and half. Whoops, once again proving the field isn't level.

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I think that if you are talkin about small schools being represented then CLASS THE TEAM STATE. The individual is about the individual, not school size. There are state champions from big schools and small schools every yeah.

 

Jeff weiss and drake stein both come from smaller schools. I don't know the enrollment numbers of Princeton and heritage hills. But they do fine because they work harder and want to be the best and wrestle the best.

 

I would feel that if I had won state and was the best in class AA then I would want to have wrestled the guy in class A to see if I was the best. But that's me. Ilike to compete.

 

I can see the argument for team state but not so much individual. 

 

And if you wonder about attracting coaches you can also look at meter dei. I know they are private but most of their wrestling team does 2 sports. And their coaches are young guys who came back because they wanted to coach and be around wrestling. They weren't attracted to it for money. They want to give back to their program.

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Here are the school sizes that were sectional champs, then those going to state:

 

Eastern- 654 (JR/SR High)

Logansport - 1,293

Harrison - 1,677

Peru - 727

Jasper - 1,063

Castle - 1,831

Mater Dei - 561

Jeffersonville - 2,099

New Castle - 1,248

South Dearborn - 977

Jennings County - 1,614

Roncalli - 1,139

Homestead - 2,105

Whitko - 582

Bellmont - 838

Yorktown - 650

Franklin - 1,481

Bloomington South - 1,733

Avon - 2,348

Perry Meridian - 2,141

Cathedral - 1,292

Noblesville - 2,344

Fountain Central - 640 (JR/SR High)

Hamilton Southeastern - 2,228

Munster - 1,163

Portage - 2,618

Crown Point - 2,426

Merrillville - 2,241

Prarie Heights - 518

Jimtown - 636

Wawasee - 1,072

Mishawaka - 1,641

 

To state:

Harrison - 1,677

Castle - 1,831

Roncalli - 1,139

Yorktown - 650

Perry Meridian - 2,141

Cathedral - 1,292

Crown Point - 2,426

Mishawaka - 1,641

 

 

The average school size is 888 students, most of these are significantly larger.

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Why did you totally dodge my last two section Y2.  Is it because you have absolutly no answer.  Thats the second time you dodged my arguements and I am tired of it.  One more time here are a few of  my statements that disprove what you say about class wrestling: 

 

Class wrestling people also say that it will make small schools better because they will have more team achievements.  The fact is there are several sectionals that are weak in Indiana.  You would think by this same logic that teams would get better over time because they have a chance at winning sectional year in and year out.  There are currently sectionals in Indiana whos top team is rated 109, 95, 85, 71, and 63.  This tells me that the parity the class wrestling guys talk about will not happen.

 

Here are the facts Ohio has class wrestling and has the exact same problems Indiana has.  They have the same teams in the finals every single year.  Class wrestling people will try and say Ohio has more elete college level wrestlers.  I can tell you with out a doubt that it is not because they classed there state.  There is no possible way that lowering the competition will help elete wrestlers.

 

Once you admit that class wrestling is not a magical cure for everything maybe we can talk.  You use 100% unproven claims to try and show flat out lies. 

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Once you admit that class wrestling is not a magical cure for everything maybe we can talk.  You use 100% unproven claims to try and show flat out lies. 

 

Wait, I'm lost. Once he says you're right and he's wrong you can have a discussion? It's attitudes like that that cause deadlock in politics. Is that really what you meant?

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Why did you totally dodge my last two section Y2.  Is it because you have absolutly no answer.  Thats the second time you dodged my arguements and I am tired of it.  One more time here are a few of  my statements that disprove what you say about class wrestling: 

 

Class wrestling people also say that it will make small schools better because they will have more team achievements.  The fact is there are several sectionals that are weak in Indiana.  You would think by this same logic that teams would get better over time because they have a chance at winning sectional year in and year out.  There are currently sectionals in Indiana whos top team is rated 109, 95, 85, 71, and 63.  This tells me that the parity the class wrestling guys talk about will not happen.

 

Here are the facts Ohio has class wrestling and has the exact same problems Indiana has.  They have the same teams in the finals every single year.  Class wrestling people will try and say Ohio has more elete college level wrestlers.  I can tell you with out a doubt that it is not because they classed there state.  There is no possible way that lowering the competition will help elete wrestlers.

 

Once you admit that class wrestling is not a magical cure for everything maybe we can talk.  You use 100% unproven claims to try and show flat out lies. 

Where did anyone claim it was a magical solution?  Please tell me where anyone has claimed that.

 

How about a little bet, if you can find where myself or anyone else has claimed that class wrestling is the end all, be all solution for everything then you win.  If not, you will be banned for life manvswild1.  You have 24 hours to find this information.  Deal?

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