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So much for small teams not being able to compete


duck_and_run

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I'm late to the discussion.

 

Wouldn't you only class the TEAM tourney????

If you are saying that a team can be affected by the size of the school, aren't you also saying that an individual is affected?  Does a talented 1A quarterback have the type or receivers or line that a 5A quarterback has?

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Just like all those Ohio, Michigan and Illinois kids are disgraced by their accomplishments.  Go find someone from a classed state and ask them what they placed in their state tournament.  See if they mention what class it was.

 

They wont, why? Because they know it diminishes the value of their accomplishment.  

 

Instead of being a true State Champion. You will have won a a tournament called state, just like a couple other kids at your weight class.

 

Basic common sense/economics. The more of anything you have, the less the value.  There is NO arguing that and it is ignorant to try and do so.

The more state Champions we have, the less the value of the title.

 

The real question is does the decreased value in the title have increased overall benefits?

Will class wrestling get more kids to wrestle?

Will class wrestling make the state more competitive at the collegiate level?

Is class wrestling, overall, better for Indiana High School Wrestling?

 

These are questions that I do not know and are subject to much debate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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If you are saying that a team can be affected by the size of the school, aren't you also saying that an individual is affected?  Does a talented 1A quarterback have the type or receivers or line that a 5A quarterback has?

 

Maybe, but probably not.... but likewise he will not be facing the same talented 5a defenses either.  He will be facing 1a defenses.

 

 

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They wont, why? Because they know it diminishes the value of their accomplishment. 

 

No it is because it doesn't matter, they consider themselves a state champion and that is how the school, their community and everyone else considers them.  They aren't ashamed by any means of being a state placer or champion in a classed environment.

 

Instead of being a true State Champion. You will have won a a tournament called state, just like a couple other kids at your weight class.

Because your friend that went to state in football didn't have their accomplishments recognized did they?  His school probably just tossed that trophy in the trash.

 

Basic common sense/economics. The more of anything you have, the less the value.  There is NO arguing that and it is ignorant to try and do so.

The more state Champions we have, the less the value of the title.

So why not have no weight classes, because our weight classes diminish what it means to be a state champion, when we all know that Cody Phillips couldn't beat Adam Chalfant.

 

The real question is does the decreased value in the title have increased overall benefits?

Will class wrestling get more kids to wrestle?

Will class wrestling make the state more competitive at the collegiate level?

Is class wrestling, overall, better for Indiana High School Wrestling?

 

These are questions that I do not know and are subject to much debate.

I say yes to all three of those questions.  Class wrestling will help kids at small schools get recognition and help grow struggling programs in that area.  It would also help struggling bigger schools by giving them 25% more state qualifiers(in a two class format).  

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Then everything equals out at the 1A level.  If you expected that 1A quarterback to compete against a 5A team it would be absurd, right?

 

Not sure where this argument started or even is at, but I would say several 1A QB (or reciever, or lineman, etc) could be placed on a 5A team and be successful against other 5A teams.  And vise versa some 5A player could be placed on a 1A team and have little to no success just as he would have had at the 5A level.  To me that says while as a team a 1A team as a whole may not be even to a 5A team  some 1A individuals are equal or even better than 5A individuals..  So as mentioned before a 3 class team tournament (I see 3 classes as helping improve the small schools even more than 2) make sense to the overall equality of the school when it comes to size.  But a individual non-class tournament makes sense being that anyone from any size school can be equal in their talent level reguardless of school size.

 

PS.  Y2 You should be proud of me I put class team tournament as the number one thing for the IHSWCA to work on for the voting at sectionals. 

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Y2, first off, the school did recognize them.  Pep rally, had a great turnout for the game.... still doesn't mean much.  He knows that on any given weekend 60% of the schools in the state were better.  They just happened to be the best 2nd best 2a school in the state.  And whoop-tee-doo... That was not that good.  It was average at best.  

 

You mentioned being ashamed of a class state title?

By no means are they ashamed of a class state title.  They did the best they could in the system they were placed.  They worked their butt off.  It resulted in them winning a state title and it is a great accomplishment.  But they still are not a STATE CHAMPION.

 

 

 

You tried to make some absurd comment about cody phillips wrestling chalfant?  In order to debunk me alluding to the diminished value due to there being more of something.  That is an absolutely ridiculous exaggeration and its comical.  So as stated before "the more state champions, the less the value of the title"....  Common sense and this can not be argued.

 

 

The world meets no man half way.  If you want something you have to go get it.  You would be doing a disservice to these kids by showing them that since you are from a smaller school, you cant play with the big boys.  So its ok, we will make you our own kiddy table and you can have fun there.

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Y2, first off, the school did recognize them.  Pep rally, had a great turnout for the game.... still doesn't mean much.  He knows that on any given weekend 60% of the schools in the state were better.  They just happened to be the best 2nd best 2a school in the state.  And whoop-tee-doo... That was not that good.  It was average at best. 

Wow that must have been absolutely horrible for them.  I bet your friend is scared for life because of only be a 2A state champion in football.  I surely hope he will turn his life around after this.  My prayers will be with him and all his teammates.

 

You mentioned being ashamed of a class state title?

By no means are they ashamed of a class state title.  They did the best they could in the system they were placed.  They worked their butt off.  It resulted in them winning a state title and it is a great accomplishment.  But they still are not a STATE CHAMPION.

Thats what the trophy says, thats what the ring says, thats what the banner says, that is what the tshirt says.  Boy something doesn't add up here.

 

You tried to make some absurd comment about cody phillips wrestling chalfant?  In order to debunk me alluding to the diminished value due to there being more of something.  That is an absolutely ridiculous exaggeration and its comical.  So as stated before "the more state champions, the less the value of the title"....  Common sense and this can not be argued.

So having 10 weight classes would be better than 14 to you right?  It would mean more to be a state champion, how about 8, 5 or 3 weight classes?  And finally what about only one weight class?  We are diminishing what it means to be a state champion if there are 14 of them aren't we?  I bet Cody Phillips is ashamed of being the 103lbs state champion when he had to share that title with 13 other kids. 

 

The world meets no man half way.  If you want something you have to go get it.  You would be doing a disservice to these kids by showing them that since you are from a smaller school, you cant play with the big boys.  So its ok, we will make you our own kiddy table and you can have fun there.

Why do 40+ other states class wrestling then?

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Once they class wrestling the next thing they will be complaning about will be the weight classes.  Complaning that this is unfair because the "Single A or AA Schools" Should only have 6 or 8 weight classes instead of 14 because they can't fill a squad.  Also they will porbably want to eliminate forfeit points because its "unfair" that any school should have to give up points for not having an individual to fit that particular weight class because they are a small school and don't have enough kids out to fill the squad.  When do you say its the coaching staffs fault or schools fault for not starting a feeder system?  Maybe I am way off but can see it coming  ;)

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Of the 8 Fort Wayne sectionals 4 were won by small schools.  Eastern, Jimtown, Whitcko, and Prarie Hieghts all took home sectional crowns.  Take that class wrestling.  Along those same lines Garrett finished a sound second above many bigger schools, and I am pretty sure South Adams and Adam Central finished 2 and 3 in there sectional.  Congradulations to all those sectional championship squads and good luck in the weeks ahead.  You defied all odds and came out on top even though it was thought to be an impossible battle coming into this weekend. 

We go right back to the original post here, those poor 40+ states that have classes will never be able to repeat the accomplishments of the schools mentioned here. And to minimalize these schools feats with the pro class ,is taking it to a level I can't be apart of.

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Once they class wrestling the next thing they will be complaning about will be the weight classes.  Complaning that this is unfair because the "Single A or AA Schools" Should only have 6 or 8 weight classes instead of 14 because they can't fill a squad.  Also they will porbably want to eliminate forfeit points because its "unfair" that any school should have to give up points for not having an individual to fit that particular weight class because they are a small school and don't have enough kids out to fill the squad.  When do you say its the coaching staffs fault or schools fault for not starting a feeder system?  Maybe I am way off but can see it coming  ;)

 

Wow you sure hit the nail on the head there. 

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Adam Chalfant was our schools first state champion,

 

i am in no way shape or form a basketball fan but my school has went to the 2a boys basketball state finals a couple times in the past few years, and was only a few points from making it a 3rd last season.  Do you think they were ashamed of going to 2a state finals? NO

 

Our football team made it to the 2a sectional finals for the first time ever, do you think we didn't care because we were only 2a, NO we were extremely proud of the team and our coaching staff for getting things turned around,

 

Our girls basketball team has won 3 strait sectional titles, looking for a 4th, and is currently ranked number 1 in class 2a, do you think we go around n tell them, oh it's only 2a, or when they are announced as being ranked number 1 in 2a do you think the girls all hang their heads and the crowd laughs, NO. Everyones fired up and applauds.

 

So you tell me, actually being from a small town and barely having enough kids to be considered 2a, do you think we say oh they don't work hard since we are 2a, or Adam said, I'm better since you guys are class and I'm not.

(Adam did not by the way, he is one of the nicest kids I've ever met)

 

Point is, class 1a state champions still feel like state champions as much as 5a state champions feel like state champions.

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We go right back to the original post here, those poor 40+ states that have classes will never be able to repeat the accomplishments of the schools mentioned here. And to minimalize these schools feats with the pro class ,is taking it to a level I can't be apart of.

 

So you would boycott the sport if Indiana had class wrestling like 40+ other states??  Wow!

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Just like the people stopped going to the basketball state finals, right? 

 

Bloomington South was the 4A State Champion and 3rd ranked team in the Nation last year. Don't you think the 1A, 2A, and 3A would have wanted a shot at taking them down. If you polled those teams and said, "would you rather keep the championship at your class or play B. South for the title, which would you do?". I think there would be more basketball to play!

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Bloomington South was the 4A State Champion and 3rd ranked team in the Nation last year. Don't you think the 1A, 2A, and 3A would have wanted a shot at taking them down. If you polled those teams and said, "would you rather keep the championship at your class or play B. South for the title, which would you do?". I think there would be more basketball to play!

I don't think they would trade their trophies in or the experiences they enjoyed for one shot at the big school champ.  I don't see Jimtown challenging Warren Central to a showdown in football, so I surely don't think Triton or who ever is a small school state champ in basketball doing the same thing.

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I wrestled abd played football for castle. 5a school. We wrestled memorial (3a) and mater dei (2a). I loved the competition with mater dei because they were the best competition for us. I don't think they were complaining about wrestling a bigger school. Ok so you say they are private. What about stein or weiss? They are from 2a or 3a schools. I would think they enjoy going up against bigger schools for the best competition. Every year there are people from smaller schools win the title.

 

I van see your arguments for a classed team state. It makes sense. But my opinion is that one class is better. Just my opinion

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I wrestled abd played football for castle. 5a school. We wrestled memorial (3a) and mater dei (2a). I loved the competition with mater dei because they were the best competition for us. I don't think they were complaining about wrestling a bigger school. Ok so you say they are private. What about stein or weiss? They are from 2a or 3a schools. I would think they enjoy going up against bigger schools for the best competition. Every year there are people from smaller schools win the title.

 

I van see your arguments for a classed team state. It makes sense. But my opinion is that one class is better. Just my opinion

 

Y2: I will answer for you with your intelligent answer! "Wow you sure hit the nail on the head there."

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But then again you can take a look at Iowa. They have a three class system. Then the week after that they do like a senior competition where any senior who won wrestles regardless of class. So you can kind of see who was "true champion". We answer the question in one step in Indiana.

 

I just think that it's nice having one state champion in each class. Although for overall growth of the sport it would need to be classed. It just feels better when I wrestled people in camps  who were "state qualifiers" in other states and destroyed them while I never made it past reigonals.

 

State is just a title. Just a reward. I don't need that to love the sport and the competition.

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I can see why people want team state classed. Smaller schools have a harder time filling a team. I get that. But individual is kinda already classed. It comes down to who works technique more.  We both weigh the same. If you work your double leg technique better you will take me down. You school size has nothing to do with that. Are you saying the disparity comes with the coaching then? Why did Ethan raley do so well then?

 

Y2 can you explain where you think the disparity happens in individual? I'm curious but I believe that my school size had little to do with how I did. I feel it was more the competition I faced and how I worked in the room.

 

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I can see why people want team state classed. Smaller schools have a harder time filling a team. I get that. But individual is kinda already classed. It comes down to who works technique more.  We both weigh the same. If you work your double leg technique better you will take me down. You school size has nothing to do with that. Are you saying the disparity comes with the coaching then? Why did Ethan raley do so well then?

 

Y2 can you explain where you think the disparity happens in individual? I'm curious but I believe that my school size had little to do with how I did. I feel it was more the competition I faced and how I worked in the room.

The disparity on the individual side is just as great.

 

*Note: These are generalizations, so that means that I know everyone can find an exception to what I say, but in general these are true.

-Coaching staff size and even quality is greater at bigger schools

---Better pay for teachers and coaches and bigger budgets allow this.

-Coaches coach less sports at a bigger school

---Many coaches at small schools also coach football, track, etc, which leaves little time for a club program

-Less two or three sport athletes at bigger schools means more time to wrestle, not just November through February.

---Less time working strictly on wrestling

-More practice partners are available at bigger schools

---Numbers game, plain and simple

-More quality practice partners are available at bigger schools

---Numbers game, plain and simple

-Facilities and budgets are greater at bigger schools

---Greater budgets allow for better travel or some other extras that are nice to have

 

 

Can a small school kid overcome these, of course, some do every year.  But there are many good wrestlers left at home every year in wrestling that in my opinion could be state placers or come extremely close to being a state qualifier in a classed environment.  These kids are hurt by these factors that I listed, while a bigger school kid does not have to worry about as many of them.

 

Now, you will ask, "well, ok, give them a ribbon, what will that do for the sport?"  It honestly won't do much today or tomorrow, but in 5-10 years it will have an impact.  The impact will be felt in different ways, but all of the ways would help the sport.  If more small school kids get noticed by Indianapolis, Trine, Manchester and Wabash and wrestle for them, that means we have more kids in Indiana that have wrestled at the collegiate level.  The trickle down effect would ensue as we would have more quality and experienced coaches at all levels.  Even if they don't coach, maybe they referee, or just are a super fan and go to all the meets of their local high school and support them.  

 

Just as an example of two of my friends from college.  

Ron was a state runner-up as a junior in high school in DII Ohio.  He would have been a fridge placer and most likely at least a state qualifier in a one class system.  After his placement he got noticed by quite a few colleges, some DI, some DII, some NAIA.  He ends up wrestling for an NAIA for four years, coming one match from placing as a senior.  In all honesty, not a great college career, but he wrestled for a very good program and learned about wrestling at a super high level.  Now that he is in the workforce he cannot coach at the high school level, but instead he coaches the local biddy program at his former school.  If he would not have placed second as a junior he would not have gotten the attention from schools and possibly not wrestled in college.  Now he is giving back to the sport and helping mold future studs just like him.

 

Q, was very similar to Ron, where he was a one-time state placer in DI I believe.  At most he would have been a state qualifier in a one class system(I believe he finished 5th or 6th as a senior).  He had talent growing from every direction, but never had to the coaching to get him to reach his potential.  He went to an NAIA school and blossomed under their coaching.  He was a 2X NAIA champ and wrestled DI for a year coming one match from placing.  Not too shabby of a career to say the least.  What is this guy doing these days?  Coaching the local biddy program where he lives.  If he is a one time state qualifier, he will get little to no attention from college coaches and probably does not wrestle in college.  Instead the class system enabled him to get noticed and then flourish and now he is giving back to the sport.

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So you would boycott the sport if Indiana had class wrestling like 40+ other states??  Wow!

Wow! Is this the reason its hard to converse on here . with all the conjecture, And rhetoric?  I'll have no part in minimalizing these schools feats this year.  And to top it all off the 40+ states that have classes will not ever be able to enjoy what these schools did.

Now KARL, Where did boycotting come from? WOW!

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