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So much for small teams not being able to compete


duck_and_run

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It has long been held by many single class advocates that the size of school has nothing to do with the amount of talent.  It is all on how hard you work etc.  IF that was the case, then 50% of finalists should come from small schools.  I for one, do not believe that is the case.

 

Who said the the talent is split equally between large an small.  The potential to reach the ultimate goal is equal to all who participate.  I believe that to be true.  The top 2 kids at any weight could both be from large or small schools.   Classing wrestling into big an small would guarantee your 50% your wanting.

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1. Many larger school facilities are not all that great.

In general they are better than small schools.  Adams Central, South Adams and Garrett all do not have dedicated wrestling rooms in our conference.

2. Most schools that have multiple additional coaches are unpaid volunteers.

Bigger schools, more wrestling alumni, more wrestling alumni are around to help out.  Smaller schools have less.

3. Good wrestlers will make thier practice partners better.

But they won't get much better wrestling weaker competition

4. Schools can enter events with better in season competion no matter thier size.

That does nothing for the second tier kids other than deter them from the sport.  If you cater your schedule to the top kids at a small school you will only be left with the top kids and no others to fill in the other 10 varsity spots

5. Kids at large schools are at a disadvantage because it is much more difficult to excel in multiple sports.

So they stick with one and excel at one sport.  That is not a disadvantage.

 

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1. Many larger school facilities are not all that great.

2. Most schools that have multiple additional coaches are unpaid volunteers.

3. Good wrestlers will make thier practice partners better.

4. Schools can enter events with better in season competion no matter thier size.

5. Kids at large schools are at a disadvantage because it is much more difficult to excel in multiple sports.

 

1. On average, larger schools are going to have better facilities.  It stands to reason.  If you could somehow prove that larger schools on average have lesser facilities, I would concede that point.  I don't think you could.

 

2.  How many paid staff at Columbus East?  If its more than 1, than its more than at the school I coach at.

 

3.  Who challenges the kid if he his head and shoulders better?  Again, on average bigger schools are more likely to have better practice partners.  Would be hard to convince me otherwise.  Sure the kid that is worse will get better but if the good kid is unchallenged, how does he get better.

 

4. They can and some do.  They are also in smaller conferences have to manage a schedule to balance there weaker/newer wrestlers with their better/experienced wrestlers.  No way my school could have Mishawaka's schedule or we would 2 kids left at the end of the season.

 

5.  That is why they specialize more at bigger schools.

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What do the school administers call those kids that win individual championships in Michigan? I am curious how they are recognized by their schools, newspapers, friends and family.  Are they considered state champions or just a tournament champion?

They are called "State Champions in there division or class" Not a  "State Champion" .  Believe me the topic gets brought up more than you think. Whether a kid gets beat by a another  kid during the year but don't have to wrestle him at state. That is garbage and truly hard to follow. You would have a more legitimate State Champion doing BCS Way. ATLEAST you would have one champion. If Indiana ever does this, I would  not come watch anymore.
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They are called "State Champions in there division or class" Not a  "State Champion" .  Believe me the topic gets brought up more than you think. Whether a kid gets beat by a another  kid during the year but don't have to wrestle him at state. That is garbage and truly hard to follow. You would have a more legitimate State Champion doing BCS Way. ATLEAST you would have one champion. If Indiana ever does this, I would  not come watch anymore.

 

I've known a couple Michigan state champs and an Illinois state champ. They called themselves state champs, not "state champ in their division or class."

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I've known a couple Michigan state champs and an Illinois state champ. They called themselves state champs, not "state champ in their division or class."

You can call yourself anything want, reality is totally different thing. Every kid I have talked to here has told me that  they wished they had one class. They just can't do anything about it ;).  It's just the best they can do. and if you lived in either place you would hear different stories.
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1. Many larger school facilities are not all that great.

In general they are better than small schools.  Adams Central, South Adams and Garrett all do not have dedicated wrestling rooms in our conference.

Columbus East does not have a wrestling room.

2. Most schools that have multiple additional coaches are unpaid volunteers.

Bigger schools, more wrestling alumni, more wrestling alumni are around to help out.  Smaller schools have less.

There are 2 paid coaches with the high school kids and 3 unpaid of which 2 are not Columbus East alumni

3. Good wrestlers will make thier practice partners better.

But they won't get much better wrestling weaker competition

They will get better if they focus on improving thier technique.

4. Schools can enter events with better in season competion no matter thier size.

That does nothing for the second tier kids other than deter them from the sport.  If you cater your schedule to the top kids at a small school you will only be left with the top kids and no others to fill in the other 10 varsity spots

Top notch competition should not be a deterant but rather a motivater.

5. Kids at large schools are at a disadvantage because it is much more difficult to excel in multiple sports.

So they stick with one and excel at one sport.  That is not a disadvantage.

It is a disadvantage to a kid that wants to be a multi sport star and fill his letter jacket wit chevrons from multiple sports which is much easier to do at a small school.

 

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1. Many larger school facilities are not all that great.

In general they are better than small schools.  Adams Central, South Adams and Garrett all do not have dedicated wrestling rooms in our conference.

Columbus East does not have a wrestling room.

Do you honestly believe small school facilities are equal to those of big schools?

 

2. Most schools that have multiple additional coaches are unpaid volunteers.

Bigger schools, more wrestling alumni, more wrestling alumni are around to help out.  Smaller schools have less.

There are 2 paid coaches with the high school kids and 3 unpaid of which 2 are not Columbus East alumni

At Karl's 1A school there is one paid coach.  We have two and two other volunteers that come in a couple times a week. 

 

3. Good wrestlers will make thier practice partners better.

But they won't get much better wrestling weaker competition

They will get better if they focus on improving thier technique.

They can have the best technique in the world, but if they can't hit it in a live situation against a top notch opponent its worthless. 

 

4. Schools can enter events with better in season competion no matter thier size.

That does nothing for the second tier kids other than deter them from the sport.  If you cater your schedule to the top kids at a small school you will only be left with the top kids and no others to fill in the other 10 varsity spots

Top notch competition should not be a deterant but rather a motivater.

If we wrestle a schedule like Mishawaka's we will end up with four kids on the team. We have to play a balancing act with getting our elite kids the competition they need, but not to overload it with too many studs to deter the middle of the pack kids.  We also must keep the middle of the pack kids out with competition that is their level so they aren't getting spanked every match.  If I were to only worry about the elite kids we would just wrestle tough schools every week, but we like having a solid team with 14 kids instead of four.

 

5. Kids at large schools are at a disadvantage because it is much more difficult to excel in multiple sports.

So they stick with one and excel at one sport.  That is not a disadvantage.

It is a disadvantage to a kid that wants to be a multi sport star and fill his letter jacket wit chevrons from multiple sports which is much easier to do at a small school.

Kids will specialize to make sure they get those patches on their jacket. 

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You can call yourself anything want, reality is totally different thing. Every kid I have talked to here has told me that  they wished they had one class. They just can't do anything about it ;).  It's just the best they can do. and if you lived in either place you would hear different stories.

I have said this numerous times and will say it again.  I would hope and expect every kid wants a single class system.  If a kid wouldn't then I would be worried.

 

Now saying that I would hope that the adults choose what is best for the kids and the sport overall.  I would hope you don't let your kids run the show and make decisions for them that may not be popular with them, but is in their own best interests.

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1.  One school does not convince me of anything

2. That is double the paid and triple the volunteers

3. If you don't see the advantages of better practice partners, I don't know what else to say.

4. Sure it will motivate your good kids if you faced Crown Point and Mishawaka every weekend.  A kid in his second year of wrestling but in a varsity spot because of lack of depth would more likely be unmotivated after doing that each weekend.

5. ???  That is why more specialize in big schools.

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There are generalizations being made on both sides. Small schools who want classes are dealing with issues that some big schools don't see. But small schools are generalizing stuff about big programs. Wrestling doesn't get the funding that other sports get. Some big schools that have big basketball programs don't have that much financial support for wrestling. Castles wrestling room is small with little to no access in the offseason because the coaches coach other sports. That's 5A. But we have 2 volunteer coaches that come in because they came back and live in the area. College kids come back over breaks. That happens less in smaller schools because peoople move away etc.

 

Being in a 5a school people need to realize that we have the same people in multiple sports because there are only so many males who wish to be athletes. I know it's hard at small schools too. Each part has it's problems. Coaches at small schools I applaud your efforts. It takes a lot to keep kids motivated and balancing schedules.

 

But talent is random. I might have a school of 1900 students but only 25 wrestlers. How many will be studs? I don't know. That's random. Small schools get studs too

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I have coached at a big school and small school.  I have seen the differences first hand.  Before I actually coached at a small school, I was a single class supporter.  Not many people have seen both sides of the argument firsthand. 

 

The generalizations are correct most of the time.  If you want to nitpick and say well this big school doesn't have this or that, then we would never had classed any other sport.

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Generalizations kill arguments because you can look at bloomingon south compared to Garrett and find all sorts of differences. But not all big schools are the same. You can't say that because of enrollment things must be this way at this school. Princeton is 3A and you say big school. But what about them having to drop a team tour ament because they only had maybe 6-8 guys on varsity. They are bigger in basketball there. While mater dei is bigger in wrestling.

 

There are specifics and exceptions in every case. So please stop saying they are 3a therefore their situation is so much better than mine. It's an invalid argument ( a little philosophy for ya). The real stats that need to be found are actual team sizes, number of multiple sport atheletes and paid coaching positions for difference schools. Then you will have more valid arguments when you can show disparity linked to schools size. Some more direct statistics

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You realize these generalizations are how the IHSAA classifies their sports right? 

 

They say that since Bloomington South has more kids they also have more coaches, better facilities, more single sport kids, etc. so therefore they aren't in 2A with Garrett.  Not all 4A schools have a better football field than Garrett or better facilities or more coaches, yet they are still 4A.

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But that's the thing.  If the generalizations aren't valid then you can't use them to beck your argument. If you show that with all the exceptions there are sub par big schools and great small schools then it does nothing to even the competition. If you break them up then good will wrestle bad in both classes instead of good being able to wrestle good

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But that's the thing.  If the generalizations aren't valid then you can't use them to beck your argument. If you show that with all the exceptions there are sub par big schools and great small schools then it does nothing to even the competition. If you break them up then good will wrestle bad in both classes instead of good being able to wrestle good

So you don't believe in classes in any sport because there are good teams in 1A and bad teams in 1A and so on?

You are missing the point on classing sports.  The point is to group the teams with similar resources aka students so that everyone has an equal chance at success.  To the IHSAA and many others, more kids means more advantages to your athletic program.

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So you don't believe in classes in any sport because there are good teams in 1A and bad teams in 1A and so on?

You are missing the point on classing sports.  The point is to group the teams with similar resources aka students so that everyone has an equal chance at success.  To the IHSAA and many others, more kids means more advantages to your athletic program.

you are missing my point

 

my point is number of kids enrolled in school doesn't equal the amunt resources that a school has. I'm saying it's an invalid generalization. It should be based on number of paid coaches and students actually participating in sports within the school. At castle it's the same students participating in multiple sports. Almost the entire castle varsity lineup plays 2 sports or more. I'm saying you can class more effectively on actual participating athletes than number of students.

 

There are school with 450 students in the band. Should those kids count towards athletic classing when they aren't actually in the pool of kids participating in athletics

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you are missing my point

 

my point is number of kids enrolled in school doesn't equal the amunt resources that a school has. I'm saying it's an invalid generalization. It should be based on number of paid coaches and students actually participating in sports within the school. At castle it's the same students participating in multiple sports. Almost the entire castle varsity lineup plays 2 sports or more. I'm saying you can class more effectively on actual participating athletes than number of students.

 

There are school with 450 students in the band. Should those kids count towards athletic classing when they aren't actually in the pool of kids participating in athletics

Yes they should be and they are counted.  Athletics in the state of Indiana are classed based on the student population at the school.  It does not matter if they are athletes or not. 

 

 

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You realize these generalizations are how the IHSAA classifies their sports right? 

 

They say that since Bloomington South has more kids they also have more coaches, better facilities, more single sport kids, etc. so therefore they aren't in 2A with Garrett.  Not all 4A schools have a better football field than Garrett or better facilities or more coaches, yet they are still 4A.

 

Who says that the reason the IHSAA has classed some team sports is because there are disrepencies in the number of coaches, qualitify of facilities, etc., as you argue?

 

My argument would be that the IHSAA has classed some team sports based on the reasoning that a small school can't compete with a big school because they don't have the same number/depth of athletes to draw from.

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Who says that the reason the IHSAA has classed some team sports is because there are disrepencies in the number of coaches, qualitify of facilities, etc., as you argue?

 

My argument would be that the IHSAA has classed some team sports based on the reasoning that a small school can't compete with a big school because they don't have the same number/depth of athletes to draw from.

They have classed based on a combination of both. 

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