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Shelbyville Sectional seeding at 125


Thornton

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I know we werent at the meeting but don't all sectionals follow the criteria set by the state. This wasnt a Shelbyville thing was it? Also looking at the 119 bracket it doesnt look like the best two wrestlers will meet in the finals. The top half of that bracket looks much tougher than the bottom. Couldnt Duncan be considered the second best kid and then get the 2 seed? Was there a vote taken about the 125 seeds?

 

I am not for sure but I believe that Anspaugh either beat Duncan, or there were no common opponents and Anspaugh had the better winning percentage. As for taking a vote, we did not take a vote. I know there were a couple of coaches who were more out spoken on the situation than others, but not actual vote was taken.

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Is this a flaw in the state's criteria? It sounds like seeding these wrestlers is at times pretty hard. If you follow the criteria for one weight class then wouldn't you have to follow it for all 14. It seems crazy to see two of the best kids in the state seeded 2 and 3, but also sounds like the criteria was followed. How did the Williams kid do last year? How difficult is getting the criteria changed?

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As I said on another post, the reason Williams got the #1 seed is because he had no head to head matches or common opponents with Wright or Kieffer. The next criteria was any returning champ or runner up, and Williams was the runner up at 125 last year, therefore he got the number one seed. Not saying it is right, but thats how it was determined.

 

I understand the criteria.  However, shouldn't a returning state runner up be regarded higher than a returning sectional runner up.  I think ultimately the goal is to seed the best kids in the top 2 spots to avoid that they meet in the semi finals.  Does anyone believe that Wright and Kieffer are not both better than Williams.  Even the Shelbyville coaches should be able to see this was not seeded correctly.  Just my opinion.

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I'm sure Williams is a decent wrestling in his own right and isn't at fault in the seeding for wrestling to the best of his ability this season.  However, this may have the biggest effect on Kieffer (or who he faces for that matter) come semi-state.   If everything falls together as ranked (always an if) Kieffer will be the #3 out of the regional because of the bracketing.  Talk about a tough opening match with whoever the #2 will be from another regional.  Reguardless of the starting position they will all have to wrestle to advance. Hopefully Kieffer can wrestle up to his potential and this seeding issue won't be a factor in a few weeks.

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This is a direct result of the zero tolerance society that we live in today, where common sense would dictate that both of these wrestlers should be the 1 and 2 seed. What we have here is a case of these are the rules, we dont care why they were created, we just read them as written and the results be damned.

 

While I believe that both Wright and Kieffer will advance to saturday at conseco, there is a kid from the other sectionals and regionals that will not, simply because someone HAD to follow the rules as written, and not use their head to actually think about anything in a logical manner.

 

I would have loved to be there to see how both Coach Williams, and Coach Ellis recieved the word that neither of their wrestlers was going to be the number one seed.

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Using some of the logic I am seeing posted here, you would have to tip your hat to the Shelbyville coach for trying to assure that his wrestler gets the best possible shot at making it to Semi-State or beyond.  I am not saying the critera is the best to use, but it is the critera layed out in the winter bulletin.

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I would have loved to be there to see how both Coach Williams, and Coach Ellis recieved the word that neither of their wrestlers was going to be the number one seed.

 

It was indeed quite priceless....Coach Williams wasn't nearly as upset as Coach Ellis was.

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now the other sectional will come in play and i guarentee that some of the wrestlers will be taking a dive to not finish as high as possible, this just tells you that the system is flawed. but hey can't blame the shelbyville coach he did what was in the paper to get his kid to go as far as he can.it is still BS though.good luck to all.

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Everyone should just "prepare" to wrestle. Things like this happen every year. It is an imperfect system. It is an  IHSAA problem. They are the only one who can fix it. I was on the end of this a few years back and bitched until I was blue in the face. To no avail,  nothing has changed. Just wait until you are in the round to go at Semi State and you are the # 3 or #4 guy facing #1 or #2 guy in the state.Worse yet, when you wake up Sunday morning after you have been eliminated from state competition and 14 of the guys going on, you beat the crap out of in the regular season. Even worse 2 of those guys you beat the crap out of twice during the season end up placing in the top 8. Don't expect me to cry a river for anyone. You boys should just prepare to wrestle your best no matter what !! Life will go on.

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I must be missing something here.  The loser at Regionals, whether Kiefer or Wright, will have to beat another Regional's champ in the ticket round at Semi-state to get to State.  You are just as likely to make it through Semi-State as a 3rd place finisher from Regionals as you are as a 2nd place finisher.  I've seen plenty of cases where the 3rd place finisher at Regionals has received a better draw than the second place one. 

 

As a side note, If Roncolli's coaches were so against this set-up, why didn't they just refuse the 3rd seed and take the 4 instead?

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Is this a flaw in the state's criteria? It sounds like seeding these wrestlers is at times pretty hard. If you follow the criteria for one weight class then wouldn't you have to follow it for all 14. It seems crazy to see two of the best kids in the state seeded 2 and 3, but also sounds like the criteria was followed. How did the Williams kid do last year? How difficult is getting the criteria changed?

 

The criteria for seeding has been changed several times over the years, and the criteria allowing for the seeding of a returning Champion, or Runner-up, has remained intact because it generally works.  It would be a knee jerk reaction to change the criteria simply because it seemingly did not work in one instance.  I have heard people mention, and ask about, voting.  There should not be any place for voting since that would certainly cause more issues than it is worth.  In the past, when voting was a part of the criteria, certain schools generally stuck together and that meant that the seedings were slanted to whatever school belonged to the largest voting block.  I remember well going to Connersville when there were about 20 teams and the only bigger schools were Cathedral, Warren, Valpo, and New Castle.  In almost every case where a vote occurred with one of those schools involved the vote was 16-4, or something like that no matter how good the wreslters were.  When we wrestled the tournament those four school almost always had kids wrestle above their seeds becasue they had seeded unfairly.  Ideally, coaches shoudl attempt to seed the wrestlers in the way they will place in the tournament.  As long as gamesmanship survives that won't happen.  I love Coach Ellis dearly, but I would imagine that the rule that has hurt his wrestler in this instance is one that has benefited him at some point in the past.  We also need to keep in mind that Williams (Shelbyville) is a pretty good wreslter in his own right.  To automatically think a wrestler from another Sectional would beat him if he would have placed third is conjecture at best......I do have one word that would help this situation though as far as the Regional is concerned, and that word is .........WRESTLEBACKs.

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"As a side note, If Roncolli's coaches were so against this set-up, why didn't they just refuse the 3rd seed and take the 4 instead?"

 

Coach Ellis didn't do this because it goes against the high ethical standard to which all coaches should aspire. Seeding is supposed to be about placing the best kids away from each other and not trying to gain some tactical advantage. Section X, paragraph B, #5 in the winter bulletin states that (and I am paraphrasing here) the purpose of seeding is to allow the best wrestlers to not meet until the finals and that coaches should keep an open mind and seed wrestlers based on their demonstrated abilities and not seek any unwarrented advantage. It also states that the criteria for seeding are "suggested" meaning they are not carved in stone. Since Brandon Wright is a transfer into this sectional, he never had the chance to be a returning champion at any weight class. He is, however a former state champion, has wrestled in the title match each of the last 3 years and is a national champion. Common sense should have prevailed. Ultimately, this will not affect Wright or Kieffer, but it could have some bearing on that sectional's team title and it will affect match ups at each subsequent level of the individual tournament.

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"As a side note, If Roncolli's coaches were so against this set-up, why didn't they just refuse the 3rd seed and take the 4 instead?"

 

Coach Ellis didn't do this because it goes against the high ethical standard to which all coaches should aspire. Seeding is supposed to be about placing the best kids away from each other and not trying to gain some tactical advantage. Section X, paragraph B, #5 in the winter bulletin states that (and I am paraphrasing here) the purpose of seeding is to allow the best wrestlers to not meet until the finals and that coaches should keep an open mind and seed wrestlers based on their demonstrated abilities and not seek any unwarrented advantage. It also states that the criteria for seeding are "suggested" meaning they are not carved in stone. Since Brandon Wright is a transfer into this sectional, he never had the chance to be a returning champion at any weight class. He is, however a former state champion, has wrestled in the title match each of the last 3 years and is a national champion. Common sense should have prevailed. Ultimately, this will not affect Wright or Kieffer, but it could have some bearing on that sectional's team title and it will affect match ups at each subsequent level of the individual tournament.

 

Good post....it comes down to trying to do what is right.  I would add this though....in the tournaments I have been involved with you were not allowed to refuse a seed once your wrestler was on the board.  If everyone refused the #3 seed where would that leave you.....with two seeds and a draw for the rest. 

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Good post....it comes down to trying to do what is right.  I would add this though....in the tournaments I have been involved with you were not allowed to refuse a seed once your wrestler was on the board.  If everyone refused the #3 seed where would that leave you.....with two seeds and a draw for the rest. 

 

I see what you both are saying here.  I guess my point is that if the goal is to put the the best 2 guys on the opposite side of the bracket, then I see nothing wrong with seeding the 3rd best kid 4th.  That would be the means of increasing the likelihood to get the 2 best guys to the finals.  In this case, I can't imagine that Roncolli was trying to get Kiefer seeded over Wright, so I wouldn't think he would have been on the board yet until Wright was seeded.  I'm sure someone would have grabbed the 3rd seed. 

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OK. I have to be the voice of reason here.

 

Just wrestle.

 

Sometimes things don't work out, or you get an actual bad draw. Maybe this is even a bit shady. However, to win a state championship, you have to beat the best in your weight class. It just so works out. Each kid will wrestle, and we will get a winner. No one is going to 'default' or play any stupid stratgey games. You all play too much playstation and forget old fashioned 'put a whoopin' on em' wrestlin'. They will wrestle the matches, we will get a winner.

 

P.S. This is not nearly as bad as some of the tough match-ups that have randomly occured over the years at the 'match to go' at semi-states before.

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Everyone should just "prepare" to wrestle. Things like this happen every year. It is an imperfect system. It is an  IHSAA problem. They are the only one who can fix it. I was on the end of this a few years back and bitched until I was blue in the face. To no avail,  nothing has changed. Just wait until you are in the round to go at Semi State and you are the # 3 or #4 guy facing #1 or #2 guy in the state.Worse yet, when you wake up Sunday morning after you have been eliminated from state competition and 14 of the guys going on, you beat the crap out of in the regular season. Even worse 2 of those guys you beat the crap out of twice during the season end up placing in the top 8. Don't expect me to cry a river for anyone. You boys should just prepare to wrestle your best no matter what !! Life will go on.

 

I would like to know when a 3-time State finalist (1 time champ) has been seeded 2nd at a sectional.  The other things you speak of is not seeding, more of a bad draw while advancing in the tournament. 

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