decbell1 Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Here is the newest set of rankings (with some explanations below). 1. Mishawaka (13-0) 2. Perry Meridian (10-0) 3. Ev. Mater Dei (12-0) 4. Merrillville (13-0) 5. Castle (10-1) 6. Crown Point (6-1) 7. Bloomington South (10-2) 8. Portage (8-3) 9. Franklin (13-3) 10. Ev. Reitz (9-0) 11. Yorktown (22-1) 12. Cathedral (8-2) 13. New Palestine (18-2) 14. SB Clay (21-1) 15. Penn (7-1) 16. Jeffersonville (8-3) 17. Roncalli (4-3) 18. Carmel (2-0) 19. Lawrence North (6-4) 20. Bellmont (15-2) Also Considered:New Castle, Pike, Warren Central A few notes: I received several updates on teams that I dropped last week (i.e. Yorktown, Cathedral) and witnessed a new lineup for another (Bellmont) that changed my outlook on those teams. I also realize that elevating them back up a week after dropping them may not be popular. However, if I made these rankings every week trying to please everyone and to get the least amount of complaints, they would not be very accurate or trustworthy. If you take a step back, I think you realize that Yorktown is most likely the better team than SB Clay, despite the loss 2 weeks ago. We've also seen Cathedral bring a few guys back that did not wrestle at the Traicoff Invite, greatly improving their teams. My Top 10 stays the same, as I think there is a definite divide between the Top 10 and bottom 10 now. (With maybe the exception of Yorktown) We are starting to learn more about Penn, and I will admit that they were most likely underrated for the last few weeks. Jeffersonville placed ahead of a solid Carmel team this weekend, moving them up. The Team Scores at the Marion County Tournament were probably the most difficult results to integrate into this week's rankings. Do they show parity in Central Indiana..... or do they show that those teams in Marion County were just a bit overrated at the beginning of the year? (I'm going somewhere in between.) Bellmont has made shifts in weight from 112-145 and I believe is definitely a better team than earlier in the year, but they move into #20 more because of Warren Central's lack of a quality win (and LN's drop) and Pike's terrible showing at Marion County (which I know is not a true picture of how much Pike has improved, but......) Let the debate begin.... (and by all means, please give me more info to build on. If your team is ranked too low, send me their team scores so far this year so that I can update my notes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndianaWrestlingGuy1 Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 I like these rankings, DecBell. As for Cathedral, you are spot on with your assessment of the return of some of the football big boys. I would think we are close to Top 5 in the State. We will see how we do at Connersville next week with our individual performance, but I think our team is much stronger even since the Traicoff. Going from forfeiting 2 upper weights in Calumet to returning a Conseco caliber Heavy and a return of a very good 215 to weight should be at minimum 18 point swing and as much as 24 in our duals. We shouldn't be able to touch Mishawaka, but I think we can compete with just about anyone else in state. The good news is we get to see what we are made of on January 13th against #2 Perry, January 20th against an emerging #17 Roncalli team, and a #7 Bloomington South in Boomtown on January 21st to end the season. You gotta wonder if we couldn't challenge for the title if we would have hung on to Brandon Wright and either Charlie McGinley/Blake Roytek - all 3 Conseco caliber grapplers. Oh well, Mishawaka lost Beck last year and it cost them. I guess turnabout is fair play. Bring on the Falcons. And good luck at Connersville, boys. Beat Reitz and Roncalli. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnatchSingle Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 I would like to see a Bellmont vs Yorktwon rematch!! I think Bellmont would put up a DIFFERENT score this time. Merriville still is my pick to win the whole STATE this year. I just like how they look and the kinds of things they are doing on the mat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decbell1 Posted December 22, 2009 Author Share Posted December 22, 2009 I like these rankings, DecBell. As for Cathedral, you are spot on with your assessment of the return of some of the football big boys. I would think we are close to Top 5 in the State. I think the most telling score is that they only lost to a very good Portage team 34-33 while missing some of those upper weight guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catfish Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 You gotta wonder if we couldn't challenge for the title if we would have hung on to Brandon Wright and either Charlie McGinley/Blake Roytek - all 3 Conseco caliber grapplers. Oh well, Mishawaka lost Beck last year and it cost them. I guess turnabout is fair play. Why all the moving of wrestlers around the state? State caliper wrestlers do not move in the south. MD just gets accused of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallegos215 Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 I dis agree with Decbell that Yorktown is the better team than Clay. If they were the better team, they would have won right? Right? But who won!? South Bend Clay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnatchSingle Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 I would agree. The rankings guys for team and individuals always say that it doesn't matter about last week or last year. What matters is this year and what just happened. I think Clay deserves the credit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catfish Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 What happened in the Clay/Yorktown match that was unusual? Injury? Upsets? JV wrestled spots? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallegos215 Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Idk, i don't want to hear anymore about the JV stuff, they wrestled in that dual, which makes them a varsity wrestler, Yorktown wanted to put them on the mat, so we took it to them. I don't think there was any injuries, everyone looked fine to me. With the exception of their 152 pounder pinning his self, that's his own fault he's a wrestler every wrestler should know your not supposed to be on your back no matter if you on the offensive or defensive position. Clay won fair and sqaure, so I really wish people would give us credit where credit is due. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decbell1 Posted December 22, 2009 Author Share Posted December 22, 2009 I think it is fairly obvious that Clay has gotten the credit for beating Yorktown. The fact that they are ranked at all can ONLY be contributed to the fact that they did beat Yorktown, as they don't have a win over another ranked opponent. My job is to rank the teams with their current varsity lineups. The team that Yorktown wrestled at New Haven beats SB Clay in my opinion, and that's the end of that argument for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12andcounting Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 We will get to see how good Merriville is when they wrestle MD at St. Louis. No doubt that will be a good test for both teams. #3 vs #4 - it may all come down to bonus points, and Merriville will pick some up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR.Takedown Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Love to see how people are so biased for there repective team... I didnt see the match, but besides looking at just that match, you need to look at the rest of the season. Which Decbell is doing. Sounds like yorktown has gone out and wrestled quality teams, well at least better teams then South Bend Clay. But like I said, I really dont know much about these teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammer Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Didn't Crown Point lose as a team last year during the regular season, too. They still finished as the #1 team by winning team state. I agree with Decbell1 in that it's fair to rank them when comparing teams with their best line up being used. I have little doubt that Yorktown is a top 10 team with their best line up on the mat, which I think makes them better than Clay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin2win1 Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 People who get angry over rankings in wrestling have issues. Atleast that is my take on it. Cause in the end what decbell does with the team rankings means nothing to who ends up number 1 at Team State, what the others do to rank the top wrestling wrestlers per weightclass means nothing to who makes it to state and who wins state. Fact is, if you think you should be higher, laugh at the ignorance of those who rank you and go out and PROVE that you are better than you ranking. Then when you do that people like decbell will give you a higher, yet pointless ranking. addition I would like to state that I personally am glad that someone like decbell does these pointless rankings. It may not be a factor in determining the championship, but it does give us wrestling fans and idea of where teams are at and what type of competition they have and will face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallegos215 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 By no means am I mad about the rankings. Truthfully, I don't care anything about the rankings. I'm just not satisfied with everyone going on here saying South Bend Clay got lucky. How come it just can't be were good? That's okay though, we'll prove were good in a BIG way. Be on the lookout guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Nobody ever said Clay got lucky. You beat Yorktown fair and square. Some people, including Decbell, are suggesting that one dual meet result doesn't always prove a particular team is better than another. Upsets happen in sports all the time. In college football, if the #1 team in the country gets beat by an unranked team, it doesn't necessarily prove that the unranked team is better if there is a whole season of other results to suggest otherwise. It just proves that the unranked team was better for that game that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
throwforfive Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Gallegos215, I think what decbell is implying, is that in the match between Clay vs Yorktown, the score was 39-31. You can see on the results that they (Yorktown) wrestled an Ervin at Hwt and he was pinned. Not the #2 ranked Hwt in the state that is 24-0 with 24 falls. So, I think that makes him wonder that if the #2 ranked Hwt was in, maybe things would have been different. That change alone would make it 33-37 in favor of Yorktown. I don't think anyone is saying Clay isn't for real. He did rank you guys top 20. I also seen a score with Yorktown and LaPorte was 58-12. What was the score with Clay and LaPorte? Good luck on a great season with continued success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
throwforfive Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Charger 1 Regional Qualifier Cool Points: -12 [wahoo] [boo] Posts: 55 Re: Elkhart Memorial still sick? ? Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 07:54:43 PM ? Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- yorktown is the real deal.. unfortunately we didn't get to wrestle the same team that clay saw.. very impressive.. Top 3 team in the state.. no doubt.. very well coached, great shape.. beat the tar out of us..We are about 90% goin in and left at about 75%.. It was nice to watch some good ole in your face wrestling.. too bad our kids didn't return it.. it was a great lesson learned.. Goshen is Jan 20.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallegos215 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 I understand where your coming from. Laporte score was 35-30 I think. They really took it to us. We had our heads in our a##, laporte is a good team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decbell1 Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share Posted December 23, 2009 I know this isn't a great way to judge teams, but Merrillville 62 LaPorte 6 Crown Point 45 LaPorte 14 Yorktown 58 LaPorte 12 SB Clay 40 LaPorte 35 Munster 37 LaPorte 25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Actually, it is. Every predictive rating system used in sports relies strictly on scores of games/matches--not wins and losses. In wrestling, common opponent score analysis is highly predictive of future results. Ratings that consider wins/losses only are 'reward based'. Ratings that consider scoring margin only are 'predictive'. Ratings that try to synthesize the two types are the most comprehensive in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallegos215 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Yeah, they wrestled good that round. They did what they needed to do South Bend Clay beat munster 37-23 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Mole Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Hats off to decbell1 for doing the team rankings... you could have 20 "experts" do the rankings, and they probably wouldn't be the same, but they probably would be close. Sometimes it's all about matchups. Last year Crown Point did not match up well with Mishawaka, but matched up much better with Cathedral. Cathedral, on the other hand, matched up well with Mishawaka. South Bend Clay, on this particular date, matched up well with Yorktown and got the victory. It doesn't mean they're a better team or will advance further in the tournament, but it does indeed mean they were better on that particular day. Congrats to Coach Hartman on a great victory, and good luck to both teams the rest of the season as they will both make some noise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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