What I See As Benefit To Class Wrestling

[Y2CJ41]

How do all those NC and Virginia kids get recruited though, even though as a whole Indiana has better wrestling?  We have plenty of wrestling in the neighboring states like Ohio, Illinois and Michigan.  We don't have as many instate opportunities, but plenty that are just as close out of state.

[Galagore]

I see class as ok if it is only for TEAM state...not individual.

It wouldn't be helpful at all unless it was just TEAM state.

 

How big the school is has no effect on the quality of the wrestler. If a wrestler from a school with 200 students wins state does that make him less of a wrestler than someone that wins state from a school with 2000 students?NO it still goes back to the best wrestler in the state.

 

I agree that maybe there should be a team state version.

 

 

Don't just bang on your chest.  This has been one of the most well-thought-out arguments going both ways on this issue.  Don't ruin it with a bunch of bravado.

[PHD27]

I think you hit the nail on the head tspray...in order to get more Indiana wrestlers to wrestle in college, we need to get more Indiana wrestlers to participate in national tournaments (and not just Sr. Nationals).  Colleges need to start looking at our kids when they are freshmen and sophmores, and not when they are seniors.  I don't think having a class system will get more wrestlers to national tournaments.

[Y2CJ41]

I think you hit the nail on the head tspray...in to get more Indiana wrestlers to wrestle in college, we need to get more Indiana wrestlers to participate in national tournaments (and not just Sr. Nationals).  Colleges need to start looking at our kids when they are freshmen and sophmores, and not when they are seniors.  I don't think having a class system will get more wrestlers to national tournaments.

More wrestlers will be exposed to our highest level, the state finals, therefore college coaches will see them earlier in their careers.  If a kid places as a senior and never qualifies for state before that they are very unlikely to get much notice from college coaches.

[Regionrat1]

RegionRat to say Wisconsin wrestling is weak and it would be tougher to win Marion county tournament than a Wisconsin title is a falsehood.  Tell that to Garrett Lowney or Cole Konrad or Ben and Max Askren, or how about Craig Henning.  Just 5 of teh Wisconsin kids that have wrestled in the finals of the NCAA over the last few years.  More importantly how about Dennis Hall, Jim Gruenwald and kieth Sieracki.

 

Now I will say this in gerco they own us, in folkstyle the shoe might be on the other foot.

 

Wisc is a little smaller than Indiana population. With 3 class system it is way easier to be a state champ in Wisc.than Indiana. I know they have there share of quality wrestlers / but you have better odds in Wisc. than Indiana

 

What I really ment say in a state like Kansas where they have multiple divisions there maybe only 30 schools competing in a division.  How many school compete in the Marion or Lake county tournament ?  25-35 teams .

 

 

 

 

[Regionrat1]

RegionRat to say Wisconsin wrestling is weak and it would be tougher to win Marion county tournament than a Wisconsin title is a falsehood.  Tell that to Garrett Lowney or Cole Konrad or Ben and Max Askren, or how about Craig Henning.  Just 5 of teh Wisconsin kids that have wrestled in the finals of the NCAA over the last few years.  More importantly how about Dennis Hall, Jim Gruenwald and kieth Sieracki.

 

Now I will say this in gerco they own us, in folkstyle the shoe might be on the other foot.

 

I truelly like da state of Wisconsin/ day make some of da finest Ale coming from " Gods County"

[Y2CJ41]

RegionRat to say Wisconsin wrestling is weak and it would be tougher to win Marion county tournament than a Wisconsin title is a falsehood.  Tell that to Garrett Lowney or Cole Konrad or Ben and Max Askren, or how about Craig Henning.  Just 5 of teh Wisconsin kids that have wrestled in the finals of the NCAA over the last few years.  More importantly how about Dennis Hall, Jim Gruenwald and kieth Sieracki.

 

Now I will say this in gerco they own us, in folkstyle the shoe might be on the other foot.

 

Wisc is a little smaller than Indiana population. With 3 class system it is way easier to be a state champ in Wisc.than Indiana. I know they have there share of quality wrestlers / but you have better odds in Wisc. than Indiana

 

What I really ment say in a state like Kansas where they have multiple divisions there maybe only 30 schools competing in a division.  How many school compete in the Marion or Lake county tournament ?  25-35 teams .

 

 

 

 

No one here has EVER stated we should have 9 or 10 classes so there are 30 teams per division.  At most people are advocating three classes and most say two would be fine.

[Y2CJ41]

I would like to disagree with the principal of the argument made by 1oldwrestler, not his logic.

 

I do not believe that class wrestling is this special potion that will make Indiana a better wrestling state in a few years.  I believe that class wrestling may be on the list of things to possible improve a state, but it would be more towards the bottom in my opinion.  Youth level wrestling and club wrestling is key to the improvement of wrestling in the state of Indiana.  This is the same for all sports.  Class wrestling only will not make wrestlers any better.  Better wrestling and wrestlers are created at the younger divisions and ages, and then really blossom in high school (and there are exceptions to this).  

 

Another item I believe that I would place before class wrestling would be the refiguring of weight classes.  It is known that I am against eliminating the 103 weight class, but that is against the argument that it is only for underclassmen and it is forfeited slighlty more than 112.  I do believe that refiguring the weight classes and lower the weight classes to 12 or 10 would have a positive impact.  We live in a society were everyone believes they are entitled to something.  This has even crept into the world of wrestling.  Many wrestlers think it is a negative thing to wrestle JV.  Eliminating a few weight classes would raise the competition level in the room, and hopefully help to curb the entitled attitude and the negative attitude towards jv.  The raise in competition in the room will be a benefit for all. Might their be drawbacks to this, I am sure there will be, and is it really possible we could do this, I am sure the answer is no.

 

I am in favor of team state.  I think showcasing te small schools at the team event would place a lot of focus on their entire team and their entire community.  This would be a very positive experience for their wrestling program.  I do not believe the same thing would occur in the individual tournament.  The excitement may be high, but not near as high when the town is behind an ENTIRE team.  The team concept is harder to push to the 3rd or 4th page of the paper.

 

 

 

Do I think class wrestling has some benefits, yes I do.  I just do not think that class wrestling is the answer right now.  It may be in 5 years, but just not right now.

No one has ever said that class wrestling is a magic potion and that miraculously Indiana will have better wrestling after a couple years of implementing class wrestling.  In the long run, for the health of the sport class wrestling is the way to go.  Wrestling is not healthy at the small school level right now and class wrestling would revitalize many programs that have sunk into hard times.  Class wrestling would also keep many good coaches at the small school level like it has done for other sports.  Many coaches(no matter the sport) will flock to a school they are more likely to have success, in wrestling that is a larger school.

 

Class wrestling will not hurt the sport in this state and it will increase the participation and enthusiasm for the sport at the small school level where the sport is not doing too well.

[AJ]

 

No one has ever said that class wrestling is a magic potion and that miraculously Indiana will have better wrestling after a couple years of implementing class wrestling.  In the long run, for the health of the sport class wrestling is the way to go.  Wrestling is not healthy at the small school level right now and class wrestling would revitalize many programs that have sunk into hard times.  Class wrestling would also keep many good coaches at the small school level like it has done for other sports.  Many coaches(no matter the sport) will flock to a school they are more likely to have success, in wrestling that is a larger school.

 

Class wrestling will not hurt the sport in this state and it will increase the participation and enthusiasm for the sport at the small school level where the sport is not doing too well.

 

How long would you say the "long run" is? 

 

My point was that there needs to be more things done to raise the level of wrestling in this state to the level that seems to be desired.  If you look back at my post, I even said class wrestling has benefits and could help.  I just do not want to go that road quite yet.

[bigfan2001]

 

[

The key is exposure to college coaches earlier in their high school careers.  I think the college coach would recruit both kids the big school placer and small school kid.  More opportunities for both the colleges and high school kids.

 

You get exposure to college coaches by picking up the phone and calling them, sending them a tape and attending their summer camp.  Believe it or not, it's really that simple.  The college wrestling coaches resources are very limited and you can't wait for them to find you.  Chances are they'll never find you or know of your interest unless you let them know.  Unless you're a national place winner at Fargo or Fila they probably have never heard of you.  You need to make the effort. 

 

[Drooke]

Karl - I don't believe Rose Hulmans coaches will be recruiting anywhere.

They have dropped the program.

[KarlHungus]

 

[

The key is exposure to college coaches earlier in their high school careers.  I think the college coach would recruit both kids the big school placer and small school kid.  More opportunities for both the colleges and high school kids.

 

You get exposure to college coaches by picking up the phone and calling them, sending them a tape and attending their summer camp.  Believe it or not, it's really that simple.  The college wrestling coaches resources are very limited and you can't wait for them to find you.   Chances are they'll never find you or know of your interest unless you let them know.  Unless you're a national place winner at Fargo or Fila they probably have never heard of you.   You need to make the effort. 

 

 

I understand the plight of college coaches recruiting and their limitations and the need to expose yourself...ha ha. 

[Galagore]

 

[

The key is exposure to college coaches earlier in their high school careers.  I think the college coach would recruit both kids the big school placer and small school kid.  More opportunities for both the colleges and high school kids.

 

You get exposure to college coaches by picking up the phone and calling them, sending them a tape and attending their summer camp.  Believe it or not, it's really that simple.  The college wrestling coaches resources are very limited and you can't wait for them to find you.  Chances are they'll never find you or know of your interest unless you let them know.  Unless you're a national place winner at Fargo or Fila they probably have never heard of you.  You need to make the effort. 

 

 

I understand the plight of college coaches recruiting and their limitations and the need to expose yourself...ha ha. 

 

Didn't you get arrested for that once?

[KarlHungus]

 

[

The key is exposure to college coaches earlier in their high school careers.  I think the college coach would recruit both kids the big school placer and small school kid.  More opportunities for both the colleges and high school kids.

 

You get exposure to college coaches by picking up the phone and calling them, sending them a tape and attending their summer camp.  Believe it or not, it's really that simple.  The college wrestling coaches resources are very limited and you can't wait for them to find you.   Chances are they'll never find you or know of your interest unless you let them know.  Unless you're a national place winner at Fargo or Fila they probably have never heard of you.   You need to make the effort. 

 

 

I understand the plight of college coaches recruiting and their limitations and the need to expose yourself...ha ha. 

 

Didn't you get arrested for that once?

 

Mind your own bizness tuff guy

[NickS]

How do all those NC and Virginia kids get recruited though, even though as a whole Indiana has better wrestling?  We have plenty of wrestling in the neighboring states like Ohio, Illinois and Michigan.  We don't have as many instate opportunities, but plenty that are just as close out of state.

 

Just something to consider.  Indiana (with 2 D1 programs) and it's bordering states make up 13 D1 programs combined. 

 

North Carolina and it's neighboring state, Virginia, have around the same number of D1 programs at 14.  But North Carolina itself does have 8 D1 programs (4x that of Indiana).

 

Virginia and it's neighboring states of North Carolina, West Virginia, and Maryland combines for 17 programs.  But again, Virginia itself, has 6 D1 programs (3x that of Indiana).

[Lefthanded Headlock]

This is the breakdown by state of wrestlers on DI rosters.  Notice states like North Carolina, Virginia, Maryland and Florida are ahead of us when I would contend that we are at worst EQUAL to those states.

 

State Num Wrestlers

1 Pennsylvania 343

2 New Jersey 205

3 Ohio 189

4 California 189

5 New York 158

6 Illinois 127

7 Michigan 100

8 Virginia 98

9 North Carolina 82

10 Iowa 80

11 Maryland 59

12 Florida 59

13 Indiana 50

14 Minnesota 49

15 Colorado 46

16 Missouri 43

17 Washington 43

18 Georgia 43

19 Oregon 34

20 Oklahoma 33

21 Wisconsin 32

22 Arizona 27

23 Kansas 27

24 Texas 27

25 Tennessee 25

26 Delaware 22

27 Idaho 19

28 Alaska 18

29 Utah 18

30 Massachusets 18

31 West Virginia 17

32 South Dakota 17

33 Connecticut 15

34 Montana 14

35 North Dakota 12

36 Nebraska 12

37 New Hampshire 10

38 Wyoming 10

39 Louisiana 9

40 Nevada 9

41 South Carolina 8

42 Rhode Island 5

43 Hawaii 5

44 Maine 5

45 New Mexico 4

46 Kentucky 3

47 Alabama 3

48 Mississippi 1

49 Vermont 1

 

 

Joe,

 

Did you ever think that maybe it has nothing to do w/ class wrestling and that those states in the top 10 are just better than us?  Also, every state in the top 10 except for Iowa has a larger population than Indiana.  I would contend that Florida, Maryland, and North Carolina are not better than us, but for an Indiana kid to goto a D1 school it pretty much has to be Big 10 if they want to stay anywhere close to home.  I'm guessing the Florida, Maryland, and NC kids are going to schools outside of the big 10.  I could be wrong though.

[bbulldog152]

How do all those NC and Virginia kids get recruited though, even though as a whole Indiana has better wrestling?  We have plenty of wrestling in the neighboring states like Ohio, Illinois and Michigan.  We don't have as many instate opportunities, but plenty that are just as close out of state.

 

Just something to consider.  Indiana (with 2 D1 programs) and it's bordering states make up 13 D1 programs combined. 

 

North Carolina and it's neighboring state, Virginia, have around the same number of D1 programs at 14.  But North Carolina itself does have 8 D1 programs (4x that of Indiana).

 

Virginia and it's neighboring states of North Carolina, West Virginia, and Maryland combines for 17 programs.  But again, Virginia itself, has 6 D1 programs (3x that of Indiana).

thank you wcs145 that's what I was getting at I didn't know the actuall numbers. also what we need to compare is the number of D 1 wrestlers that wrestle out side of their state and compare those numbers. pluss it doesn't help that Indiana borders Ohio which based on national performance is in the top 5 states.

[manvswild1]

Joe,

 

Did you ever think that maybe it has nothing to do w/ class wrestling and that those states in the top 10 are just better than us?  Also, every state in the top 10 except for Iowa has a larger population than Indiana.  I would contend that Florida, Maryland, and North Carolina are not better than us, but for an Indiana kid to goto a D1 school it pretty much has to be Big 10 if they want to stay anywhere close to home.  I'm guessing the Florida, Maryland, and NC kids are going to schools outside of the big 10.  I could be wrong though.

 

[table]

[/table]

 

You are absolutely correct in saying that Indiana is right where we should be in the national scheme of things.  In fact I would argue that the college caliber wrestlers coming out of Indiana is better now then it ever has been.  The system clearly is not broke so it doesn't need to be fixed.  Name the last time Indiana produced 5 wrestlers in the college level that were top five in their respective weight classes.  With this being said, I also believe that we have yet to peak and by classing the state tournament many kids will not be able to wrestle the top level kids in our state.  It also takes away from what many consider the finest athletic tournament in the state.  For the people interested in classing the team section, would you like me to start engraving all the matre dei class A titles.  It would do nothing but allow for coaches to brag a little more about there stats.  Also wrestling only has 14 spots to fill and with the right youth programs this is more then an achievable feet.  Winning a team state title as a small school has been done, it can be done again, and it will be done again in the near future

 

[TripleB]

It's our job as coaches to get our kids names out to college coaches. You guys are right, college coaches don't get to Semi-States or Regionals.

 

However, I always see semi-state and regional level wrestlers getting athletic dollars.

 

Another point is that Indiana needs to be more open to smaller schools. This has been 8 or 9 years ago, but I can remember coming to state on behalf of my college to try to recruit guys. I was basically laughed at several times for being from a NAIA school.  Not to say that that is the norm, but for 2 years that was the impression that I got.

[Galagore]

This is the breakdown by state of wrestlers on DI rosters.  Notice states like North Carolina, Virginia, Maryland and Florida are ahead of us when I would contend that we are at worst EQUAL to those states.

 

State Num Wrestlers

1 Pennsylvania 343

2 New Jersey 205

3 Ohio 189

4 California 189

5 New York 158

6 Illinois 127

7 Michigan 100

8 Virginia 98

9 North Carolina 82

10 Iowa 80

11 Maryland 59

12 Florida 59

13 Indiana 50

14 Minnesota 49

15 Colorado 46

16 Missouri 43

17 Washington 43

18 Georgia 43

19 Oregon 34

20 Oklahoma 33

21 Wisconsin 32

22 Arizona 27

23 Kansas 27

24 Texas 27

25 Tennessee 25

26 Delaware 22

27 Idaho 19

28 Alaska 18

29 Utah 18

30 Massachusets 18

31 West Virginia 17

32 South Dakota 17

33 Connecticut 15

34 Montana 14

35 North Dakota 12

36 Nebraska 12

37 New Hampshire 10

38 Wyoming 10

39 Louisiana 9

40 Nevada 9

41 South Carolina 8

42 Rhode Island 5

43 Hawaii 5

44 Maine 5

45 New Mexico 4

46 Kentucky 3

47 Alabama 3

48 Mississippi 1

49 Vermont 1

 

 

Joe,

 

Did you ever think that maybe it has nothing to do w/ class wrestling and that those states in the top 10 are just better than us?  Also, every state in the top 10 except for Iowa has a larger population than Indiana.  I would contend that Florida, Maryland, and North Carolina are not better than us, but for an Indiana kid to goto a D1 school it pretty much has to be Big 10 if they want to stay anywhere close to home.  I'm guessing the Florida, Maryland, and NC kids are going to schools outside of the big 10.  I could be wrong though.

 

Lefthanded,

 

Then you are saying since those states are bigger, it's not fair to compare them and say they're better than Indiana?  Isn't that the same thing as saying one high school is bigger than another so it's not fair to compare the quality of wrestling programs?  And if it's not fair to compare them against one another, why is it fair to rank them through competition against one another? 

[Lefthanded Headlock]

This is the breakdown by state of wrestlers on DI rosters.  Notice states like North Carolina, Virginia, Maryland and Florida are ahead of us when I would contend that we are at worst EQUAL to those states.

 

State Num Wrestlers

1 Pennsylvania 343

2 New Jersey 205

3 Ohio 189

4 California 189

5 New York 158

6 Illinois 127

7 Michigan 100

8 Virginia 98

9 North Carolina 82

10 Iowa 80

11 Maryland 59

12 Florida 59

13 Indiana 50

14 Minnesota 49

15 Colorado 46

16 Missouri 43

17 Washington 43

18 Georgia 43

19 Oregon 34

20 Oklahoma 33

21 Wisconsin 32

22 Arizona 27

23 Kansas 27

24 Texas 27

25 Tennessee 25

26 Delaware 22

27 Idaho 19

28 Alaska 18

29 Utah 18

30 Massachusets 18

31 West Virginia 17

32 South Dakota 17

33 Connecticut 15

34 Montana 14

35 North Dakota 12

36 Nebraska 12

37 New Hampshire 10

38 Wyoming 10

39 Louisiana 9

40 Nevada 9

41 South Carolina 8

42 Rhode Island 5

43 Hawaii 5

44 Maine 5

45 New Mexico 4

46 Kentucky 3

47 Alabama 3

48 Mississippi 1

49 Vermont 1

 

 

Joe,

 

Did you ever think that maybe it has nothing to do w/ class wrestling and that those states in the top 10 are just better than us?  Also, every state in the top 10 except for Iowa has a larger population than Indiana.  I would contend that Florida, Maryland, and North Carolina are not better than us, but for an Indiana kid to goto a D1 school it pretty much has to be Big 10 if they want to stay anywhere close to home.  I'm guessing the Florida, Maryland, and NC kids are going to schools outside of the big 10.  I could be wrong though.

 

Lefthanded,

 

Then you are saying since those states are bigger, it's not fair to compare them and say they're better than Indiana?  Isn't that the same thing as saying one high school is bigger than another so it's not fair to compare the quality of wrestling programs?  And if it's not fair to compare them against one another, why is it fair to rank them through competition against one another? 

 

I never said I was against class wrestling.  I said that the size of the states is the reason there are so many more D1 wrestlers coming out of them and not because they have class wrestling.  I was just pointing out that Joe always finds a way to go to that when there could be a completely unrelated reason.

 

Here's something to chew on though.  Shouldn't the number of wrestlers placing at state be proportional to their school's size?  So if say, Pioneer gets 1 state placer and they have 300 students, shouldn't it be expected that CP gets 10 placers if they have 3,000 students?  These are completely made up numbers, but it shows you that per capita, the little schools are doing just as well as the big schools.  Now the team tournament....well that's a different story.

[naco228]

The argument that i have heard for class wrestling is that it gives us athletes more exposure to college scouts.  apparently, if we spilt up into two classes, it would make competition a little easier and more kids would advance.  it wouldnt really help me at all, since i go to a 5A school, but maybe it could if Rochester (2A) had a tough kid in my weight that i would see at regionals.

 

i think the way to promote wrestling is getting kids a better opportunity to make state finals, but that doesnt necessarily mean a 2 class system

 

i would still go for the idea of wrestle backs at semi state than a classed system

and yes, it would be a longer period of time, maybe we would have to wrestle friday night. but so what! i say its worth it

 

and personally, i dont think that the new system with top 4 at regionals is a bad idea at all.  there are some tough regionals, and some kids still qualified for state after taking 4th at regionals (Aurelio Medina)

 

so, i think at semistate there should be a wrestle back from the second round. and people who say "no wrestlebacks, just show up and be ready to wrestle" is ridiculous.  there will always be a tough match that maybe just didnt go in your favor (Brooks vs. Stevens)  yes it would be a longer day, but its worth it.  maybe some venues need to be changed so we could fit more mats and get things going quicker

 

i think this is a better choice than class wrestling

[manvswild1]

[table]

Lefthanded,

 

Then you are saying since those states are bigger, it's not fair to compare them and say they're better than Indiana?  Isn't that the same thing as saying one high school is bigger than another so it's not fair to compare the quality of wrestling programs?  And if it's not fair to compare them against one another, why is it fair to rank them through competition against one another? 

[/table]

 

were talking 1500 compared to a few millions.  Don't get me wrong i would love to see indiana at the top of the list, but realistically speaking we are more then 20 years away from that and one reason we may  be having such success at the college level like we are(humphreys, escobedo, tshirts, kinser, howe), might be that we have better competition throughout the season in the state tournement.  Also all of these wrestlers worked in the off season and wrestled out of state in national competitions.  There are plenty of competitive schools that are smaller, classing wrestling in indiana would hurt on a whole and there are tons of reasons for that.

1.  Wouldn't wrestle the best in the state.  How are you suppose to jump to wrestling the best in the nation.

2.  Catholic schools like matre dei would win smaller team state every year.

3.  There would be class A teams at team states with forfeits and thats just a joke

4.  Ask the wrestlers, and in other states they perfer non class wrestling.  All the coaches complaining quit whining, wrestling is an individual sport and you no it I dought you could name your highschools dual meet record as a senior but you definatly no your own and there is a reason for that.

5.  Its the purest tournement in the state of indiana right now and we keep screwing with it and making it easier and easier.  4 out of sectionals is kinda weak

 

[naco228]

i think a poll should be added

 

 

What comes first for wrestling; indiviualism or team?

[manvswild1]

this is more a coaches website this time of year so i imagine 70-30 instead of 90-10.  But yes that sounds like a great idea.