jcarter Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 This topic makes me think of a phrase I despise hearing..."He got Caught". Caught is just a way for fans of a favored wrestler to rationalize why their boy got Stuck. I don't think that everyone who says that a kid got caught is favoring them. When I was in high school we had this one kid that would get down by 9+ just about every match but then would catch the kid and pin him. And, our whole team would say the other kid got caught by ours, and we weren't favoring the other kid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drooke Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I guess I should have just wrote using the term "caught" FOR ME somehow seems to cheapen a victory. Kinda like a W with an * beside it. He wasn't a pinner he just caught a lot of guys. JMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boom444 Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 As a former headlocker I too hate the excuse of getting "caught" i didn't catch you... my headlock was just better than your defense. A headlock is just like any other wrestling move.. or i could say when i wrestled blake maurer at semi state i would have beaten him but.... he caught me in 10 double legs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcarter Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I'm not saying all headlockers catch people and thats why they win. I was just saying most of the time if someone says that a kid got caught it's because someone who isn't as good as him (or as good as someone thinks he is) got beat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drooke Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Your last sentance sums up why I dislike the term carter. Records don't mean anything when two people set foot on the mat. You just reinforced my initial statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcarter Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 So what your saying is that if Andrew Howe in his senior year was wrestling some freshman that was like 2-24 and the freshman threw a headlock and stuck Howe then the freshman is automatically better than Howe? My point was strange things happen sometimes the better wrestler doesn't always win. A kid could try a throw and his foot slip and then lands on his back and the ref calls a quick pin, that in my opinion is what getting "caught" means. That's what I was trying to say sorry if it came out differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drooke Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I'm saying that on that given day the kid would have earned a win over Howe. That is all....no more no less. And I'm guessing that kid would remember that moment in time for the rest of his life and would tell his grandchildren about how he waited and when the time was right threw the most technically sound headlock of his life and defeated one of the best wrestlers the state of Indiana has ever seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awood1 Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 A win is a win is a win is a win......ah but a win by any other name shall smell just as sweet!! ;D I don't care if you lose 1-0 or fall on your back trying to tie your shoelaces....if you lose, you lose. Man up and don't call it anything other than a loss. And if I was the frosh that "caught" Andrew Howe?...I would have it sewn in to the back of my letter jacket "I CAUGHT ANDREW HOWE!" 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinedad Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 A couple of things. 1st, if someone is a junk artist, and they beat you with junk, how good are you? 2nd The term "caught" I have used this term to discribe action on the mat, but never to cheapen the move, only as a way to discribe how the person was beaten. As in so an so was on top, hung his head a little low, and the other kid caught him in a head lock and got the fall. Or this kid got caught in a cradle. Nothing there to cheapen the outcome of the match, but I guess if you are predisposed to that line of thnking that is what you would take from it. Most people are easy enough to read when they say it. You know by how they say it if they thought their wrestler ought to have won. In that case, I would refer you back to item 1, concerning junk moves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bob 77 Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 around here they call it "middle school moves." (Headlocks, bulldogs). Where I come from its called finding a way to win & I would bet half of what they call funk wrestling now was once called junk wrestling. Kids jobs are to win at this level and not to meet our standards for future levels, although Kinser is still hitting the headlock when that college stud still knows its coming. If it works for somebody dont knock it without asking the opponent who was beat with such styles "what was he doing not to be able to stop that so called junk"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 I was just curious. Can someone (an official possibly) tell me when a headlock turns into an illegal choke hold. I have seen this called but am not sure what is going on. The real question is : Is this intentional? To cut off an opponents air supply sounds a little crazy to me. This was not the intention of the head lock. If it is possible to cut off someones air in a legal hold especially if his shoulders are not pinned to the mat then it should probably be illegal. Quality wrestling does not include headlocks. I've never been in a room that teaches headlocks as a primary part of its system. A win is a win even if you have to kill or injure the kid???? I hope that is not what this sport has come to. I would love to see Kinser hit that headlock on someone like Brent Medcalf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVander Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Big Bob, i agree with you whole heartedly....the issue is that if you can't stop a single leg is that any less skilled than not being able to stop a headlock....i was certainly a junk artist , way back when, but i was certainly good enough not to get caught with the same junk i was throwing, unfortunately that doesn't mean i did not get beat, just not with the same skill set i was beating other guys with,...What was most coaches have issue with is that if you have success as a middle school level wrestler, throwing headlocks or other "junk", then you will not develop the other skills that will take you to the next level of competition. I certainly did not work hard enough on my mat skills, so i was a great example of how solely relying on "catching" people will cost you at the higher levels of competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Tonte is the man I bet just about everyone he wrestles has that fear of being choked out by him he has a grip like a python. We get to see it another year and he is getting bigger and stronger. Keep makin them tap out Jacob!! I don't think wrestlers should have to worry about being choked out in a match. Choking people out is illegal and this is not MMA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awood1 Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 I was just curious. Can someone (an official possibly) tell me when a headlock turns into an illegal choke hold. I have seen this called but am not sure what is going on. The real question is : Is this intentional? To cut off an opponents air supply sounds a little crazy to me. This was not the intention of the head lock. If it is possible to cut off someones air in a legal hold especially if his shoulders are not pinned to the mat then it should probably be illegal. Quality wrestling does not include headlocks. I've never been in a room that teaches headlocks. A win is a win even if you have to kill or injure the kid???? I hope that is not what this sport has come to. I would love to see Kinser hit that headlock on someone like Brent Medcalf. You had a valid question, then you went south....Quality wrestling begins with headlocks. Just about every youth coach I ever met started with single legs, then headlocks. I laughed when I moved West and everyone here calls it a "head and arm"...may actually be more accurate then what I was used to, but a headlock nonetheless. To say that is what "the sport has come to" is a bit of ignorance. Jerry Jones was hitting headlocks for state titles 25+ years ago. It is one of the first rudimentery moves most kids learn and will always be a part of wrestling. There used to be a good post in the "ask the official" section re: potentially dangerous, headlocks, chokes, MMA etc. that did a very good job of outlining legal and illegal and basically said that anything that impedes breathing should be stopped as soon as it is noticed...but thats always tough for a ref to call as a headlock is (should not be) about stopping someone from breathing..it's about things you here from coaches all the time all wrapped in to one...control the hands / lift the head / get perpendicular / etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boom444 Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 At Junior Nationals I was wrestling Dan Erekson Iowa's HWT and i threw him and headlock... needless to say he ended up beating me 14-4 but after the match he told me i had a nice "HEADTHROW" which was a term i had never heard before. It was the best compliment i had ever gotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 I was just curious. Can someone (an official possibly) tell me when a headlock turns into an illegal choke hold. I have seen this called but am not sure what is going on. The real question is : Is this intentional? To cut off an opponents air supply sounds a little crazy to me. This was not the intention of the head lock. If it is possible to cut off someones air in a legal hold especially if his shoulders are not pinned to the mat then it should probably be illegal. Quality wrestling does not include headlocks. I've never been in a room that teaches headlocks. A win is a win even if you have to kill or injure the kid???? I hope that is not what this sport has come to. I would love to see Kinser hit that headlock on someone like Brent Medcalf. You had a valid question, then you went south....Quality wrestling begins with headlocks. Just about every youth coach I ever met started with single legs, then headlocks. I laughed when I moved West and everyone here calls it a "head and arm"...may actually be more accurate then what I was used to, but a headlock nonetheless. To say that is what "the sport has come to" is a bit of ignorance. Jerry Jones was hitting headlocks for state titles 25+ years ago. It is one of the first rudimentery moves most kids learn and will always be a part of wrestling. There used to be a good post in the "ask the official" section re: potentially dangerous, headlocks, chokes, MMA etc. that did a very good job of outlining legal and illegal and basically said that anything that impedes breathing should be stopped as soon as it is noticed...but thats always tough for a ref to call as a headlock is (should not be) about stopping someone from breathing..it's about things you here from coaches all the time all wrapped in to one...control the hands / lift the head / get perpendicular / etc. We are not talking about a quality headlock or a front head lock. It is a headlock totally out of position with no set up. Are we watching the same thing. Oh thats right you are in California? Stupid me !! Are you another one of those macho talking jackasses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awood1 Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 I was just curious. Can someone (an official possibly) tell me when a headlock turns into an illegal choke hold. I have seen this called but am not sure what is going on. The real question is : Is this intentional? To cut off an opponents air supply sounds a little crazy to me. This was not the intention of the head lock. If it is possible to cut off someones air in a legal hold especially if his shoulders are not pinned to the mat then it should probably be illegal. Quality wrestling does not include headlocks. I've never been in a room that teaches headlocks. A win is a win even if you have to kill or injure the kid???? I hope that is not what this sport has come to. I would love to see Kinser hit that headlock on someone like Brent Medcalf. You had a valid question, then you went south....Quality wrestling begins with headlocks. Just about every youth coach I ever met started with single legs, then headlocks. I laughed when I moved West and everyone here calls it a "head and arm"...may actually be more accurate then what I was used to, but a headlock nonetheless. To say that is what "the sport has come to" is a bit of ignorance. Jerry Jones was hitting headlocks for state titles 25+ years ago. It is one of the first rudimentery moves most kids learn and will always be a part of wrestling. There used to be a good post in the "ask the official" section re: potentially dangerous, headlocks, chokes, MMA etc. that did a very good job of outlining legal and illegal and basically said that anything that impedes breathing should be stopped as soon as it is noticed...but thats always tough for a ref to call as a headlock is (should not be) about stopping someone from breathing..it's about things you here from coaches all the time all wrapped in to one...control the hands / lift the head / get perpendicular / etc. We are not talking about a quality headlock or a front head lock. It is a headlock totally out of position with no set up. Are we watching the same thing. Oh thats right you are in California? Stupid me !! Are you another one of those macho talking jackaasses. I believe this is the first time you made a distinction between a "headlock totally out of position with no set up" and a "quality headlock or a front head lock". Also, I am not watching anything and yes I am in California. If you are watching anything, it is differant then all of us in that you are the only one watching it. There has been no video posted yet and the topic was "Junk-Artists". If it were referencing a particular match that others had seen, then no I would not have probably seen it. But in this case you began the post as "I was just curious" with no reference to any particular event. Kind of like that missing bit describing the "quality headlock" in your earlier post. To date, the smartest thing you have said was that you were stupid and I am another one of those macho talking jackaasses (whatever that is). Spot on with both. Good luck in your search to satisfy your curiosity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 I was just curious. Can someone (an official possibly) tell me when a headlock turns into an illegal choke hold. I have seen this called but am not sure what is going on. The real question is : Is this intentional? To cut off an opponents air supply sounds a little crazy to me. This was not the intention of the head lock. If it is possible to cut off someones air in a legal hold especially if his shoulders are not pinned to the mat then it should probably be illegal. Quality wrestling does not include headlocks. I've never been in a room that teaches headlocks. A win is a win even if you have to kill or injure the kid???? I hope that is not what this sport has come to. I would love to see Kinser hit that headlock on someone like Brent Medcalf. You had a valid question, then you went south....Quality wrestling begins with headlocks. Just about every youth coach I ever met started with single legs, then headlocks. I laughed when I moved West and everyone here calls it a "head and arm"...may actually be more accurate then what I was used to, but a headlock nonetheless. To say that is what "the sport has come to" is a bit of ignorance. Jerry Jones was hitting headlocks for state titles 25+ years ago. It is one of the first rudimentery moves most kids learn and will always be a part of wrestling. There used to be a good post in the "ask the official" section re: potentially dangerous, headlocks, chokes, MMA etc. that did a very good job of outlining legal and illegal and basically said that anything that impedes breathing should be stopped as soon as it is noticed...but thats always tough for a ref to call as a headlock is (should not be) about stopping someone from breathing..it's about things you here from coaches all the time all wrapped in to one...control the hands / lift the head / get perpendicular / etc. We are not talking about a quality headlock or a front head lock. It is a headlock totally out of position with no set up. Are we watching the same thing. Oh thats right you are in California? Stupid me !! Are you another one of those macho talking jackaasses. I believe this is the first time you made a distinction between a "headlock totally out of position with no set up" and a "quality headlock or a front head lock". Also, I am not watching anything and yes I am in California. If you are watching anything, it is differant then all of us in that you are the only one watching it. There has been no video posted yet and the topic was "Junk-Artists". If it were referencing a particular match that others had seen, then no I would not have probably seen it. But in this case you began the post as "I was just curious" with no reference to any particular event. Kind of like that missing bit describing the "quality headlock" in your earlier post. To date, the smartest thing you have said was that you were stupid and I am another one of those macho talking jackaasses (whatever that is). Spot on with both. Good luck in your search to satisfy your curiosity. Your choice of words is poor and insulting. I choose to stop these back and forth insults. The latter part of your reply was sufficient. Thank You. By the way I was referring to Quick Draw McGraw a talking horse actually. Horse ,Ass not much different. Not referring to you. So do not get defensive. Quick Draw thought he knew everything, but he did not. Get it. I have been a quick Draw myself a time or two. Imagine that !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 I was just curious. Can someone (an official possibly) tell me when a headlock turns into an illegal choke hold. I have seen this called but am not sure what is going on. The real question is : Is this intentional? To cut off an opponents air supply sounds a little crazy to me. This was not the intention of the head lock. If it is possible to cut off someones air in a legal hold especially if his shoulders are not pinned to the mat then it should probably be illegal. Quality wrestling does not include headlocks. I've never been in a room that teaches headlocks as a primary part of its system. A win is a win even if you have to kill or injure the kid???? I hope that is not what this sport has come to. I would love to see Kinser hit that headlock on someone like Brent Medcalf. I stand corrected. Quality wrestling does include headlocks. Let 's just keep it legal!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nsspw123 Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Kurt Kinser is beastly at HEADLOCKS he is ranked 12 in the nation and headlocks are leadin him to victory haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Thanks! I am sure his are legal. We need to start a new post discussing legal vs illegal headlocks(Choke Outs). Maybe you would like to do that? Kurt Kinser is beastly at HEADLOCKS he is ranked 12 in the nation and headlocks are leadin him to victory haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcatcountry97 Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Junk - anything that is regarded as worthless, meaningless, or contemptible; trash. I would say as long as it has a good percentage of working then it couldnt be considered worthless or trash. I think people get caught up when they see a move or series that they were not taught, or perhaps is not 'teachable.' They immediately regard it as junk. By the definition of many people on this board, most college wrestling would be 'junk' because it's all scrambles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOX FAN Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Nothing is junk if it works and it does not violate any rules. Opponent awareness is very important. Everyone should know who the headlockers are and watch out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boot Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 I'm getting tired of listening to announcers talking about "cheap tilts." Tilts are an excellent move, I'm not sure what they consider "cheap" about them. It's all about using your leverage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I always felt they were cheap, but it is much like headlockers. You just have to watch out for them. They are legal and lethal. Like the trapped arm gut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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