Scardy94 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Nice cewrestlingfan...i just put that on another post! Wahoo for you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 My point precisely.....Why is the team portion not classes????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cewrestlingfan Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I would like to see the team portion classed but I am strongly against the individual portion. The problem is that the IHSAA won't do 1 without the other if they would consider doing it at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammer Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I have yet to see anyone claim that having 3 kids in each weight class is not an advantage. Does anyone think that having more practice partners and kids competing for the same varsity spot is not an advantage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtv2112 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I want a yes or no answer to this question. Do bigger schools have a distinct advantage over small schools due to the size of their student body? I am confused as you stated in one sentence that they do, but in another one, state that they do not. Yes bigger schools do have the advantage in sports like football, but not in wrestling. Wrestling is broken down by weight classes, therefore there is no adavantage to any school of any size. I was going to hold back, but I just can't. School A, male enrollment of 800 boys, lets say about fifty 125lb. kids, lets say about 15 have any athletic ability, lets say about 3 are tough enough to wrestle, maybe one of the three is really good. School B, male enrollement of 150 boys, lets say about nine 125 lb. kids, lets say about 3 have any athletic ability, lets say about 1 is tough enough to wrestle, maybe he is or isn't actually good. Now, take this to every weight class. Which school, in general, should have better team wrestling? This does not prevent small schools from being good, but let's face it boys, in spite what you want to believe, you know deep down in your heart that . . .yes . . . size really does matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 if enrllment doesn't matter why are 75% of the state qualifiers the past 11 years from big schools? My guess is that it's because approximately 75% of the male students go to "big schools". I think the data you have put together and presented here previously has shown this to be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I'm against classes, but I'm not going to be naive and say every school is on an equal playing surface, because that's just not the case. The biggest reason I would be for moving to a class system is if it improved the product on the mat. However, looking at the progess (or lack there of) of certain states with class systems suggests that the quality doesn't improve really. But I will say what a class system may do, is it gives more college opportunities for wrestlers, since the State Finals is where college coaches are for recruiting purposes. However, I think just a simple expansion of the State Finals would have the same effect. The only question is, how do you coax the IHSAA into expanding the State Finals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrestlingDad78 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I don't think it is the size of the school but the size of the heart. I think the wrestlers who are successful are those who put the blood, sweat and tears into the sport. If you look, I would bet the majority of the boys left are those who wrestle all year long. I bet you will see these same faces at folkstyle, freestyle and grecco roman tournaments. I believe when it comes to the teams, the size of the school matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I don't think it is the size of the school but the size of the heart. I think the wrestlers who are successful are those who put the blood, sweat and tears into the sport. If you look, I would bet the majority of the boys left are those who wrestle all year long. I bet you will see these same faces at folkstyle, freestyle and grecco roman tournaments. I believe when it comes to the teams, the size of the school matters. I agree with you here, but is it a coincidence that 75% of these kids with "more heart" come from big schools? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB145 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I don't think it is the size of the school but the size of the heart. I think the wrestlers who are successful are those who put the blood, sweat and tears into the sport. If you look, I would bet the majority of the boys left are those who wrestle all year long. I bet you will see these same faces at folkstyle, freestyle and grecco roman tournaments. I believe when it comes to the teams, the size of the school matters. I think with more kids you find more kids with that kind of heart. I think you also get into where a lot of smaller schools still have as many sports at big school. That really stretches the kids out in all sports. MTV2112 said was I was going to which is a good point. Im not for class system or against it. Either one has its pro's and cons. But to say bigger schools, for the most part, do not pull out more talents is pretty stupid. You can say it just takes kids with heart and determination but do you think you will find more of those kids out of 1500 or 300? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munges Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Whenever we this topic comes up people are never clear if we are talking individual, team, or both. Which one are we talking presently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUBjj171 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Well if yu think about it wrestling a class system in an individual sense is stupid. Everyone wants to be a true champion. The best. That is what the IHSAA wants. Now in a team sense I can understand a class system because of depth and multiple kids competing for a spot. If an athlete in a small school wants to be a champion on his own he just needs to get out and do tournaments himself in the offseason and decide that wrestling is the sport he wishes to pursue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GloryDays66 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Class wrestling huh? NO size doesn't matter, its the school! Team Duals look the 2 that have been there the most Bellmont and Mater Dei, they have seen each other sometimes in other sports that have classes. Why, because both school are in 3A and 2A classes. How do you tell the person next to you, "Yeah, we had the best team in the state because we won the 5A championship," when you have the tradition of these two programs in lower classes or even New Castle for that matter (they made their appreances at team state), I do NOT believe you can. Teams or people cannot be scared of teams from a higher class and expect to win (we are HOOSIERS, they made a movie about it, different sport but none the less). Never be scared, Never back down are you will never make it that's the what I was always told. They only thing a class systems does is leave ?s on who really is the best. To say you are the best team with no doubt, everyone else has to fall. Yeah, you could do a tournament of champs the following weekend with excuses on it doesn't matter, our day was at state, injuries, etc.., so why not keep it in 1 weekend 1 TRUE TEAM STATE CHAMPION! Not every small school is scared to run with the bigger dogs!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB145 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Class wrestling huh? NO size doesn't matter, its the school! Team Duals look the 2 that have been there the most Bellmont and Mater Dei, they have seen each other sometimes in other sports that have classes. Why, because both school are in 3A and 2A classes. How do you tell the person next to you, "Yeah, we had the best team in the state because we won the 5A championship," when you have the tradition of these two programs in lower classes or even New Castle for that matter (they made their appreances at team state), I do NOT believe you can. Teams or people cannot be scared of teams from a higher class and expect to win (we are HOOSIERS, they made a movie about it, different sport but none the less). Never be scared, Never back down are you will never make it that's the what I was always told. They only thing a class systems does is leave ?s on who really is the best. To say you are the best team with no doubt, everyone else has to fall. Yeah, you could do a tournament of champs the following weekend with excuses on it doesn't matter, our day was at state, injuries, etc.., so why not keep it in 1 weekend 1 TRUE TEAM STATE CHAMPION! Not every small school is scared to run with the bigger dogs!!! I agree with alot of that just not the last part. The smaller schools are "scared" to run with the big dogs. Thats kind of patrionizing in the expense of saying they cant compete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoilerUp Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 First off, lets give the college coaches some credit for realizing which states have class wrestling and which don't. I think they are knowledgeable enough about the sport to realize what placing in Indiana really means. Maybe you are suggesting changing other stages of the tournament but I have already seen several losing records in the brackets for semi-state. I would be wary of watering down the quality of wrestlers at each stage. In the article about Harper they mention how we have so few 4 time state champs because of our classless system. Changing to classes would weaken this achievement. I could go for class wrestling in the team tournament. The reason 3/4 of the champs are from big schools may be that 3/4 of kids go to large schools. The state champ should be the one who has worked the hardest and is the best wrestler. No reason a small school kid can't outwork a large school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinedad Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 As listed on the IHSAA web site for 4 class sports. I am not entirely sure which side this supports, but it is some nice numbers for all you number freaks out there to play with. If you are in favor of class wrestling, I guess you could say that since 5 of the 8 teams are from class 4, that shows a needc for class wrestling. If you are against class wrestling, you could say yes, 5 are from class 4A, but there are 3 from 3A and 2A, which shows a balance of power amopng team state finalists. Crown Point 2289 #14 4A Perry Meridian 2132 #23 4A Castle 1786 #43 4A Mishawaka 1692 #47 4A Indianapolis Cathedral 1286 #83 4A Roncalli 1111 #104 3A Bellmont 894 #127 3A Delphi Community 522 #224 2A 400 Schools listed for 2007-2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyourbase Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 In the article about Harper they mention how we have so few 4 time state champs because of our classless system. Changing to classes would weaken this achievement. I 100% agree, it would water down the achievement. The state champ should be the one who has worked the hardest and is the best wrestler. No reason a small school kid can't outwork a large school. I was "that" kid, and loved every minute of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drooke Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Ryan Pribble? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GloryDays66 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Class wrestling huh? NO size doesn't matter, its the school! Team Duals look the 2 that have been there the most Bellmont and Mater Dei, they have seen each other sometimes in other sports that have classes. Why, because both school are in 3A and 2A classes. How do you tell the person next to you, "Yeah, we had the best team in the state because we won the 5A championship," when you have the tradition of these two programs in lower classes or even New Castle for that matter (they made their appreances at team state), I do NOT believe you can. Teams or people cannot be scared of teams from a higher class and expect to win (we are HOOSIERS, they made a movie about it, different sport but none the less). Never be scared, Never back down are you will never make it that's the what I was always told. They only thing a class systems does is leave ?s on who really is the best. To say you are the best team with no doubt, everyone else has to fall. Yeah, you could do a tournament of champs the following weekend with excuses on it doesn't matter, our day was at state, injuries, etc.., so why not keep it in 1 weekend 1 TRUE TEAM STATE CHAMPION! Not every small school is scared to run with the bigger dogs!!! I agree with alot of that just not the last part. The smaller schools are "scared" to run with the big dogs. Thats kind of patrionizing in the expense of saying they cant compete. warrendad I agree with you, totally. Small schools can but not every small school believes that they can and uses school size as an excuse on what went wrong. That's why I say NOT every small school is scared of the bigger ones because of size. Its not because they cannot, its a matter of the mind if you got the players willing to put in the work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueBolt Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Class Wrestling? No Thank You...NEXT QUESTION!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtv2112 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 There are other factors at play than size, but to say that the size of the school does not matter is head in the sand foolishness. Here are a few factors to consider: 1. Coaching 2. Size 3. Youth Program 4. Tradition You have to have to have very good youth program and tradition to overcome size so that you can have an equal number of participants. I know that is one reason Mater Dei has always been great and I bet that is why Bellmont has been great. But this takes a ton of hardwork. This may get me in hotwater, but the hardwork is very easy for a school like Mater Dei to get from their alumni because, lets face it, Catholic/Private schools have strong volunteerism, typically better than a public school will have. I bet any of the smaller schools have to work at their program harder than the larger schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 So, all of the individual sports should be classed? Golf, Cross Country, Track , etc.... I don't think the IHSAA is willing to make that change. But I could be wrong. Yes they should be and I think the IHSAA wouldn't just do it for one sport it would be all of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 if enrllment doesn't matter why are 75% of the state qualifiers the past 11 years from big schools? My guess is that it's because approximately 75% of the male students go to "big schools". I think the data you have put together and presented here previously has shown this to be the case. But exactly half of the chances to go to state are with the bigger schools and half are with the smaller schools. Bigger schools do not get to send 20 kids to sectional, they send 14 just like a small school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I don't think it is the size of the school but the size of the heart. I think the wrestlers who are successful are those who put the blood, sweat and tears into the sport. If you look, I would bet the majority of the boys left are those who wrestle all year long. I bet you will see these same faces at folkstyle, freestyle and grecco roman tournaments. I believe when it comes to the teams, the size of the school matters. So the kids at smaller schools don't work hard and have no heart. That is a slap in the face of many coaches and wrestlers around the state. I guess I'll tell my kids that didn't qualify for state they don't have any heart and are lazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Well if yu think about it wrestling a class system in an individual sense is stupid. Everyone wants to be a true champion. The best. That is what the IHSAA wants. Now in a team sense I can understand a class system because of depth and multiple kids competing for a spot. If an athlete in a small school wants to be a champion on his own he just needs to get out and do tournaments himself in the offseason and decide that wrestling is the sport he wishes to pursue. I looked all over the IHSAA site and nowhere did I see it stating the goals of the association were to have a "true champion." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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