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Class Wrestling?????


devildog47959

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LOL its all fun and games Y2, you guys sucked me back into this conversation  ;D .. Do we get to drop to the small school division since we have like a 50 something % graduation rate? You are right that we have some really really good athletes walking the halls doing nothing, but does it matter when they aren't academically eligible anyway.. That is not something that we can control too well.. Should a school possibly get to drop a class based on how many boys on average are academically eligible to play school sports? This is actually a serious question.. I am just wondering what you think about that aspect of the debate.

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OK Y2, I know you got all kinds of numbers in there just waiting to get out. Lets see the break down of small school vs big school per weight class does it hold across the board, or are there a few weight classes that are skewing the numbers one way or the other. I would do it, but I am much better suited to ask questions then I am to answer them.......Guess I should have studied more in school.

 

I don't have those numbers.  Sorry

 

How can that be, you are the wrestling guru. Quite a few papers across the state are quoting your web site when they do a story on wrestling. Oh well, maybe someone with great computer skills and alot of time on their hands can figure it out. My guess, is that through the middle weights, you will see an even, or close to even split big/small, but as you get out to the upper and lower weights, the numbers skew to the big schools.

 

I could probably get the data from TAE as his listing has weights and school.  Maybe I'll try to get it from him.  I'd be curious to see the info too.  However, it wouldn't do much to the conversation.

 

Just from personal experience I think small schools would have more success at upper weights.  I think you can get away with being a bigger guy and being a multi-sport athlete easier than a middleweight and a multi-sport athlete.  

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There aren't 3X as many kids entered at sectional.  Only the kids entered at sectional have a chance to go to state.

 

And based on the probability, since big schools have 75% of the students and small schools have 25% of the students, a state caliber wrestler is 3x as likely to be on a big school's sectional roster.  

So you're saying that big schools have distinct advantages?  If that is what you are saying then that is the case for class wrestling at both the individual and team levels.  Isn't that why they want classes for football?

 

I understand that this makes the case for a classed team tournament (I said that earlier).  Big schools are statistically more likely to have a greater number of kids who have the natural ability to be a state qualifier.  

 

But it doesn't make the case for a classed individual tournament.  If anything it makes the case that there is no advantage one way or the other.   If there were an advantage in being an individual from a big school why wouldn't the percentage of qualifiers be significantly greater than 75%?

I will ask these question again and don't mind the size of school....

Are more practice partners and more quality practice partners good for kids?

 

Are more paid coaches better for kids?

 

Are better facilities better for kids?

 

Is less pressure to be a 2 or 3 sport athlete better for a wrestler?

 

I say yes for all of those questions.  Now answer me this.... where would you more likely find a yes to all those questions?

 

For questions 1, 3, and 4, the answer is an obvious yes. for question 2, not always. not all paid coaches are the same, but I understand the point.

For question 5, it is obvious that you are going to have a better chance to find it all at a big school.

 

For those reasons I would gladly get behind a 2-3 class system for team. And while it is an advanage for kids from big schools, I still like having only one tournament for individule. Call it the Daleville syndrom if you will. Whenever they or Frankton, or Alexandria would win the Anderson sectional under the old system, you heard about it forever. If you go up there now, you will find people that love to talk about it. I dont hear people around there talking about the basketball team near as much now. Is that due to class basketball, or other outside factors, who knows. BUt I still hear about times when those teams went up against the big schools in Anderson and beat them. Esecially if it was the Indians that they beat.

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There aren't 3X as many kids entered at sectional.  Only the kids entered at sectional have a chance to go to state.

 

And based on the probability, since big schools have 75% of the students and small schools have 25% of the students, a state caliber wrestler is 3x as likely to be on a big school's sectional roster.  

So you're saying that big schools have distinct advantages?  If that is what you are saying then that is the case for class wrestling at both the individual and team levels.  Isn't that why they want classes for football?

 

I understand that this makes the case for a classed team tournament (I said that earlier).  Big schools are statistically more likely to have a greater number of kids who have the natural ability to be a state qualifier.  

 

But it doesn't make the case for a classed individual tournament.  If anything it makes the case that there is no advantage one way or the other.   If there were an advantage in being an individual from a big school why wouldn't the percentage of qualifiers be significantly greater than 75%?

I will ask these question again and don't mind the size of school....

Are more practice partners and more quality practice partners good for kids?

 

Are more paid coaches better for kids?

 

Are better facilities better for kids?

 

Is less pressure to be a 2 or 3 sport athlete better for a wrestler?

 

I say yes for all of those questions.  Now answer me this.... where would you more likely find a yes to all those questions?

 

Evansville MD, Bellmont, Mishawaka, Perry Meridian  and the other best programs in the state.

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OK Y2, I know you got all kinds of numbers in there just waiting to get out. Lets see the break down of small school vs big school per weight class does it hold across the board, or are there a few weight classes that are skewing the numbers one way or the other. I would do it, but I am much better suited to ask questions then I am to answer them.......Guess I should have studied more in school.

 

I don't have those numbers.  Sorry

 

How can that be, you are the wrestling guru. Quite a few papers across the state are quoting your web site when they do a story on wrestling. Oh well, maybe someone with great computer skills and alot of time on their hands can figure it out. My guess, is that through the middle weights, you will see an even, or close to even split big/small, but as you get out to the upper and lower weights, the numbers skew to the big schools.

 

I could probably get the data from TAE as his listing has weights and school.  Maybe I'll try to get it from him.  I'd be curious to see the info too.  However, it wouldn't do much to the conversation.

 

Just from personal experience I think small schools would have more success at upper weights.  I think you can get away with being a bigger guy and being a multi-sport athlete easier than a middleweight and a multi-sport athlete.  

 

I was thinking more from a general population stand point, there are more middle weights at any school then there are upper and lower weights just like in the general population.

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LOL its all fun and games Y2, you guys sucked me back into this conversation  ;D .. Do we get to drop to the small school division since we have like a 50 something % graduation rate? You are right that we have some really really good athletes walking the halls doing nothing, but does it matter when they aren't academically eligible anyway.. That is not something that we can control too well.. Should a school possibly get to drop a class based on how many boys on average are academically eligible to play school sports? This is actually a serious question.. I am just wondering what you think about that aspect of the debate.

 

Wow, 50% graduation rate?  I really don't know what to say to that!

 

By no means is class wrestling a fix-all, I just firmly believe that it would help wrestling at the small school level and have little to no affect on the big schools.  Big schools would get 25% more state qualifiers, while small schools would get 75% more.  If you can't say increasing the success 4X wouldn't help your program, no matter the size, then I really don't know what to say.  

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There aren't 3X as many kids entered at sectional.  Only the kids entered at sectional have a chance to go to state.

 

And based on the probability, since big schools have 75% of the students and small schools have 25% of the students, a state caliber wrestler is 3x as likely to be on a big school's sectional roster.  

So you're saying that big schools have distinct advantages?  If that is what you are saying then that is the case for class wrestling at both the individual and team levels.  Isn't that why they want classes for football?

 

I understand that this makes the case for a classed team tournament (I said that earlier).  Big schools are statistically more likely to have a greater number of kids who have the natural ability to be a state qualifier.  

 

But it doesn't make the case for a classed individual tournament.  If anything it makes the case that there is no advantage one way or the other.   If there were an advantage in being an individual from a big school why wouldn't the percentage of qualifiers be significantly greater than 75%?

I will ask these question again and don't mind the size of school....

Are more practice partners and more quality practice partners good for kids?

 

Are more paid coaches better for kids?

 

Are better facilities better for kids?

 

Is less pressure to be a 2 or 3 sport athlete better for a wrestler?

 

I say yes for all of those questions.  Now answer me this.... where would you more likely find a yes to all those questions?

 

I'll say yes to those questions too.  But there are also disadvantages for big schools and advantages for small schools.  The advantages/disadvantages all seem to equal out when 75% of the students are from big schools and therefore approximately 75% of the state caliber athletes are from big schools and big schools end up having 75% of the state qualifiers in wrestling.  

 

Your argument that there should be 50% of the state qualifiers from small schools because they have 50% of the sectional entries is like saying 50% of the Division 1 basketball players in Indiana should be from small schools because each team has 5 starters.  If small schools have 25% of the students they are approximately 1/3 as likely as a big school to have a state caliber athlete in wrestling or of having a Division 1 caliber basketball player.

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So why are the largest schools in the state not winning the Team Title every year?   

 

Just asking...

 

Mishawaka and Lawrence North are both 5A schools.  The biggest school doesn't always win each class in football either.

 

Mater Dei is a different animal due to being a private/parochial school.  When they have 600 students, they are not equal to the 600 students at a public school.  Parental involvement, economic factors, more parents and siblings with college education, etc all attribute to them not being a true small school.

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Yeah, somewhere around that number 55-65%.. All i am saying is, there are big school that have problems fielding an entire team as well.. We may have more students, but we still have hurdles as well to jump over in order to get kids out.. Add to the fact that I coach in an area where sitting the bench or being on the JV basketball team is better than being a stud at another sport, It is a struggle to get kids out for wrestling at even the 5A schools.. I know of many other 5A schools that have the same problems that we are facing at this point.. What is there to do to help those schools out?

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There aren't 3X as many kids entered at sectional.  Only the kids entered at sectional have a chance to go to state.

 

And based on the probability, since big schools have 75% of the students and small schools have 25% of the students, a state caliber wrestler is 3x as likely to be on a big school's sectional roster.  

So you're saying that big schools have distinct advantages?  If that is what you are saying then that is the case for class wrestling at both the individual and team levels.  Isn't that why they want classes for football?

 

No, if they didn't have classes in Football it would take almost the whole season at one game per week just to complete the playoffs.

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There aren't 3X as many kids entered at sectional.  Only the kids entered at sectional have a chance to go to state.

 

And based on the probability, since big schools have 75% of the students and small schools have 25% of the students, a state caliber wrestler is 3x as likely to be on a big school's sectional roster.  

So you're saying that big schools have distinct advantages?  If that is what you are saying then that is the case for class wrestling at both the individual and team levels.  Isn't that why they want classes for football?

 

No, if they didn't have classes in Football it would take almost the whole season at one game per week just to complete the playoffs.

They could limit the number of play-off spots like they did initially when they started the football playoffs.

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I'll say yes to those questions too.  But there are also disadvantages for big schools and advantages for small schools.  The advantages/disadvantages all seem to equal out when 75% of the students are from big schools and therefore approximately 75% of the state caliber athletes are from big schools and big schools end up having 75% of the state qualifiers in wrestling.  

Each school no matter the size has to deal with issues, big schools aren't immune to problems such as swain as stated.  Small schools aren't immune to them either.  The biggest difference its easier to replace the kids at big school.

Your argument that there should be 50% of the state qualifiers from small schools because they have 50% of the sectional entries is like saying 50% of the Division 1 basketball players in Indiana should be from small schools because each team has 5 starters.  If small schools have 25% of the students they are approximately 1/3 as likely as a big school to have a state caliber athlete in wrestling or of having a Division 1 caliber basketball player.

Back to the purpose of high school athletics, is it to find one true champion or is it another purpose?  If its to have one true champion, then I cannot disagree that a single class system is the way to go.   However, I feel high school athletics' purpose is something different.  

 

Also, why do so many other states and successful states all have class wrestling?  Why did they go to classed wrestling in the 60's, and 70's ?

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Yeah, somewhere around that number 55-65%.. All i am saying is, there are big school that have problems fielding an entire team as well.. We may have more students, but we still have hurdles as well to jump over in order to get kids out.. Add to the fact that I coach in an area where sitting the bench or being on the JV basketball team is better than being a stud at another sport, It is a struggle to get kids out for wrestling at even the 5A schools.. I know of many other 5A schools that have the same problems that we are facing at this point.. What is there to do to help those schools out?

No matter the size of the school, we all have obstacles to overcome to field a team and have success.  The biggest difference is the depth of the individuals that you have in your school compared to mine.  Going to a class system will not hurt your school and honestly it would have very little affect on the team.  Going to a class system would help the small schools and their programs.  

 

If we have more kids out for the sport statewide and more quality teams top to bottom then it is good for the sport correct?

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I'll say yes to those questions too.  But there are also disadvantages for big schools and advantages for small schools.  The advantages/disadvantages all seem to equal out when 75% of the students are from big schools and therefore approximately 75% of the state caliber athletes are from big schools and big schools end up having 75% of the state qualifiers in wrestling.  

Each school no matter the size has to deal with issues, big schools aren't immune to problems such as swain as stated.  Small schools aren't immune to them either.  The biggest difference its easier to replace the kids at big school.

 

 

You are making the case for a classed team tournament here, not individual

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Sorry, I'm from Cali.  Little info off topic.  In 74' and 75' I had the honor to wrestle Dave Schultz 6 times in AAU competition.  Quite the experience.

Class wrestling is a heated topic in California from what I hear and there have been talks of it happening in the near future.  Some people obviously are not happy, but a majority see it as a way to help the sport even more and get exposure to more kids.

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So why are the largest schools in the state not winning the Team Title every year?   

 

Just asking...

 

Mishawaka and Lawrence North are both 5A schools.  The biggest school doesn't always win each class in football either.

 

Mater Dei is a different animal due to being a private/parochial school.  When they have 600 students, they are not equal to the 600 students at a public school.  Parental involvement, economic factors, more parents and siblings with college education, etc all attribute to them not being a true small school.

 

I agree on the point about Mater Dei - it isn't just applicable to Wrestling as you see the same names on the rosters for all the other sports too and they are successful (much to their credit).

 

But I think everyone is operating under the assumption that higher numbers of students is somehow translated into the surity of more kids in the wrestling room.

 

In my expirence it just isn't true.   Sure the CHANCE is greater to have the numbers show up, but the reality of it all is Wrestling is a sport for the tough...and truly tough people are actually very rare.   You cannot plot out where Tough is going to appear on the census.  

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I think the majority of them see the state of California is just to freaken big with over 1,200 high schools.  It may be more they believe the only way to organize that many high schools efficiently for the state event is to have smaller groups  instead of the idea that class wrestling will just advance wrestling there.  

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I'll say yes to those questions too.  But there are also disadvantages for big schools and advantages for small schools.  The advantages/disadvantages all seem to equal out when 75% of the students are from big schools and therefore approximately 75% of the state caliber athletes are from big schools and big schools end up having 75% of the state qualifiers in wrestling.  

Each school no matter the size has to deal with issues, big schools aren't immune to problems such as swain as stated.  Small schools aren't immune to them either.  The biggest difference its easier to replace the kids at big school.

 

 

You are making the case for a classed team tournament here, not individual

I'm making a case for both.  In order for my individuals to do well they need good practice partners, more time on the mat and probably even better weight lifting equipment and more mat space in the practice room.  Good practice partners are harder to find at a small school.  I know from experience as I had none what-so-ever in high school.  As a 112lber, I had to wrestle up to 135-152lbs to get a decent workout in.  In college I had great practice partners that helped me improve drastically.  I had the same work ethic, heart, determination in high school and college, but the variables of coaching, practice partners and facilities helped me tremendously.

 

At a small school it is a lot harder for those variables to come together, but at a big school there is a greater chance of this happening.

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Yeah, somewhere around that number 55-65%.. All i am saying is, there are big school that have problems fielding an entire team as well.. We may have more students, but we still have hurdles as well to jump over in order to get kids out.. Add to the fact that I coach in an area where sitting the bench or being on the JV basketball team is better than being a stud at another sport, It is a struggle to get kids out for wrestling at even the 5A schools.. I know of many other 5A schools that have the same problems that we are facing at this point.. What is there to do to help those schools out?

No matter the size of the school, we all have obstacles to overcome to field a team and have success.  The biggest difference is the depth of the individuals that you have in your school compared to mine.  Going to a class system will not hurt your school and honestly it would have very little affect on the team.  Going to a class system would help the small schools and their programs.  

 

If we have more kids out for the sport statewide and more quality teams top to bottom then it is good for the sport correct?

 

I am trying to understand the logic.  In an earlier post you said that you could find maybe 2 kids at your school  that were athletes and not already participating in another sport.  So, if we change to class wrestling that would be enough of an influence to get those 2 guys to participate in wrestling?

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