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Class Wrestling?????


devildog47959

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Specializing does help kids, there is no question about that. I would not sell short the value of being able to play 2-3 sports in HS, and being the bmoc at a smaller school. There is a lot to be said for that as well. It is a choice that they must all make. Do they want to specialize, and go for a little more personal glory, or do they want to play alot of sports, and be a great athlete in their community.

 

I can tell you honestly have never been at a small school before.  Playing two or three sports is what is needed for all the sports to survive.  We simply cannot horde the wrestlers or the football coach will do the same, the baseball coach and track coach will do the same too.  We honestly have about 100-125 boys in the whole school that are athletes.  We have to split those up between football, cross country and track in the fall, wrestling and basketball in the winter, and track, gold and baseball in the summer.  There is no feasible way these kids can be single sport athletes. 

 

You are right, I graduated from Anderson back in 79, and was in a class that was over 600 kids. I truely have no idea what it is like at a small school. With that the way it is, I can honsetly say even at a small school, I dont see my son on the football team, or track team, and God knows I tried to get him to hit a curve ball.

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Specializing does help kids, there is no question about that. I would not sell short the value of being able to play 2-3 sports in HS, and being the bmoc at a smaller school. There is a lot to be said for that as well. It is a choice that they must all make. Do they want to specialize, and go for a little more personal glory, or do they want to play alot of sports, and be a great athlete in their community.

 

I can tell you honestly have never been at a small school before.  Playing two or three sports is what is needed for all the sports to survive.  We simply cannot horde the wrestlers or the football coach will do the same, the baseball coach and track coach will do the same too.  We honestly have about 100-125 boys in the whole school that are athletes.  We have to split those up between football, cross country and track in the fall, wrestling and basketball in the winter, and track, gold and baseball in the summer.  There is no feasible way these kids can be single sport athletes. 

 

On the other hand, many kids at large schools may love another sport but find that they may not be good enough to get playing time.  So in those cases it could be considered an advantage to be at a smaller school where they would be able to get playing time.  I guess what I'm saying is there are advantages and disadvantages for both large and small schools.  Ultimately kids have to decide what is best for them to participate in multiple sports or to specialize in 1.

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Small schools have exactly 50% of the sectional entries in the state, big schools have the other 50%.  If school size did not matter, then the number of state qualifiers would be 50/50.

 

In a single class system you are saying school A = school B, no matter the size, but the statistics do not prove this.  

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If only the statistics could look at the millions of possible variable for each kid and take out any inconseqential factors at play.  Then maybe it would actually tell us what the real problems are and what we can do to fix them.

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Specializing does help kids, there is no question about that. I would not sell short the value of being able to play 2-3 sports in HS, and being the bmoc at a smaller school. There is a lot to be said for that as well. It is a choice that they must all make. Do they want to specialize, and go for a little more personal glory, or do they want to play alot of sports, and be a great athlete in their community.

 

I can tell you honestly have never been at a small school before.  Playing two or three sports is what is needed for all the sports to survive.  We simply cannot horde the wrestlers or the football coach will do the same, the baseball coach and track coach will do the same too.  We honestly have about 100-125 boys in the whole school that are athletes.  We have to split those up between football, cross country and track in the fall, wrestling and basketball in the winter, and track, gold and baseball in the summer.  There is no feasible way these kids can be single sport athletes. 

 

On the other hand, many kids at large schools may love another sport but find that they may not be good enough to get playing time.  So in those cases it could be considered an advantage to be at a smaller school where they would be able to get playing time.  I guess what I'm saying is there are advantages and disadvantages for both large and small schools.  Ultimately kids have to decide what is best for them to participate in multiple sports or to specialize in 1.

I agree there are advantages and disadvantages at every school.  The proof is in the pudding though, 75% of the state qualifiers are from big schools.  Its pretty absurd to say the system is working when there are 3X as many qualifiers from big schools.

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Specializing does help kids, there is no question about that. I would not sell short the value of being able to play 2-3 sports in HS, and being the bmoc at a smaller school. There is a lot to be said for that as well. It is a choice that they must all make. Do they want to specialize, and go for a little more personal glory, or do they want to play alot of sports, and be a great athlete in their community.

 

I can tell you honestly have never been at a small school before.  Playing two or three sports is what is needed for all the sports to survive.  We simply cannot horde the wrestlers or the football coach will do the same, the baseball coach and track coach will do the same too.  We honestly have about 100-125 boys in the whole school that are athletes.  We have to split those up between football, cross country and track in the fall, wrestling and basketball in the winter, and track, gold and baseball in the summer.  There is no feasible way these kids can be single sport athletes. 

 

On the other hand, many kids at large schools may love another sport but find that they may not be good enough to get playing time.  So in those cases it could be considered an advantage to be at a smaller school where they would be able to get playing time.  I guess what I'm saying is there are advantages and disadvantages for both large and small schools.  Ultimately kids have to decide what is best for them to participate in multiple sports or to specialize in 1.

I agree there are advantages and disadvantages at every school.  The proof is in the pudding though, 75% of the state qualifiers are from big schools.  Its pretty absurd to say the system is working when there are 3X as many qualifiers from big schools.

 

If there are 3x as many kids participating in wrestling at large schools, then it would be statistically correct.

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Small schools have exactly 50% of the sectional entries in the state, big schools have the other 50%.  If school size did not matter, then the number of state qualifiers would be 50/50.

 

In a single class system you are saying school A = school B, no matter the size, but the statistics do not prove this.  

 

No.   For the individual tournament we are talking about individuals.  Big schools have 75% of the individual students and 75% of the individual state qualifiers.  Small schools have 25% of the individual students and 25% of the individual  state qualifiers.   One big reason for this is that because big schools have 75% of the students statistically they would  be about three times as likely to have an individual that is state caliber.  This isn't a "big school" advantage, it's probability.  

 

Based on your argument, you should be able to take any individual from a small school, put them in a big school and they would automatically have a three times greater chance of qualifying for state.  

 

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There aren't 3X as many kids entered at sectional.  Only the kids entered at sectional have a chance to go to state.

 

I understand that.  However, if a school hs 3x as many wrestlers in the program then it would stand to reason that school would be 3x more likely to have a better wrestler at any given weight class.

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Small schools have exactly 50% of the sectional entries in the state, big schools have the other 50%.  If school size did not matter, then the number of state qualifiers would be 50/50.

 

In a single class system you are saying school A = school B, no matter the size, but the statistics do not prove this.  

 

No.   For the individual tournament we are talking about individuals.  Big schools have 75% of the individual students and 75% of the individual state qualifiers.  Small schools have 25% of the individual students and 25% of the individual  state qualifiers.   One big reason for this is that because big schools have 75% of the students statistically they would  be about three times as likely to have an individual that is state caliber.  This isn't a "big school" advantage, it's probability.  

 

Based on your argument, you should be able to take any individual from a small school, put them in a big school and they would automatically have a three times greater chance of qualifying for state.  

 

Do big schools account for 75% of the sectional entries?  

 

School A 14 sectional entries

School B 14 sectional entries

 

There shouldn't be a difference in the number of state qualifiers.

 

Yes you will increase a kid's chances of going to state if you give them better practice partners and more of them.  Give them better facilities, more coaches and the ability to only focus on wrestling and they will increase their chance to make it to state.  

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There aren't 3X as many kids entered at sectional.  Only the kids entered at sectional have a chance to go to state.

 

OK, lets throw a little more gas on this fire. At what weights are there more large school kids, is it in the 103, and 112 and 285 weights. Since they are the toughest to fill with a quality wrestler for a small school.

 

All kidding aside, I am curious if these weights affect the percentages at all in the big schools favor?

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There aren't 3X as many kids entered at sectional.  Only the kids entered at sectional have a chance to go to state.

 

And based on the probability, since big schools have 75% of the students and small schools have 25% of the students, a state caliber wrestler is 3x as likely to be on a big school's sectional roster.  

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Y2, I think you should move to California.  37 million people, 2000 public high schools (not sure how many private), and ONE State Champion per weight.  Talk about being able to say your the best................

No thanks!  But I wouldn't be surprised if they went to classes in the near future.

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There aren't 3X as many kids entered at sectional.  Only the kids entered at sectional have a chance to go to state.

 

And based on the probability, since big schools have 75% of the students and small schools have 25% of the students, a state caliber wrestler is 3x as likely to be on a big school's sectional roster.  

So you're saying that big schools have distinct advantages?  If that is what you are saying then that is the case for class wrestling at both the individual and team levels.  Isn't that why they want classes for football?

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Y2 i am still wondering why we can't get more than 20 kids out for wrestling at my 5A school that I coach at.. We have great coaches, somewhat successful in the past years, and we are a 5A school.. Why are we (and many many other 5A schools) having such problems getting kids to come out for wrestling?

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There aren't 3X as many kids entered at sectional.  Only the kids entered at sectional have a chance to go to state.

 

And based on the probability, since big schools have 75% of the students and small schools have 25% of the students, a state caliber wrestler is 3x as likely to be on a big school's sectional roster.  

So you're saying that big schools have distinct advantages?  If that is what you are saying then that is the case for class wrestling at both the individual and team levels.  Isn't that why they want classes for football?

 

Yes. Big schools have a big advantage over small schools in the team portion of the state tournament.  I don't see it so much for the individual tournament, because it stands to reason that if there are 3x as many kids in big schools then there should be 3x more state qualifiers from big schools.  

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There aren't 3X as many kids entered at sectional.  Only the kids entered at sectional have a chance to go to state.

 

And based on the probability, since big schools have 75% of the students and small schools have 25% of the students, a state caliber wrestler is 3x as likely to be on a big school's sectional roster.  

So you're saying that big schools have distinct advantages?  If that is what you are saying then that is the case for class wrestling at both the individual and team levels.  Isn't that why they want classes for football?

 

I understand that this makes the case for a classed team tournament (I said that earlier).  Big schools are statistically more likely to have a greater number of kids who have the natural ability to be a state qualifier.  

 

But it doesn't make the case for a classed individual tournament.  If anything it makes the case that there is no advantage one way or the other.   If there were an advantage in being an individual from a big school why wouldn't the percentage of qualifiers be significantly greater than 75%?

 

 

 

 

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OK Y2, I know you got all kinds of numbers in there just waiting to get out. Lets see the break down of small school vs big school per weight class does it hold across the board, or are there a few weight classes that are skewing the numbers one way or the other. I would do it, but I am much better suited to ask questions then I am to answer them.......Guess I should have studied more in school.

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I really don't know, because I'm not there to see the intricacies of the program.  AH has the athletes in the school walking the  hallways doing nothing during the winter.  At Garrett, the athletes are either wrestling or playing basketball.  I bet I could find 10 kids in your hallway that aren't wrestlers or basketball players that could be 20 match winners in two years.  I can't find those kids at Garrett, maybe one or two.

 

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OK Y2, I know you got all kinds of numbers in there just waiting to get out. Lets see the break down of small school vs big school per weight class does it hold across the board, or are there a few weight classes that are skewing the numbers one way or the other. I would do it, but I am much better suited to ask questions then I am to answer them.......Guess I should have studied more in school.

 

I don't have those numbers.  Sorry

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There aren't 3X as many kids entered at sectional.  Only the kids entered at sectional have a chance to go to state.

 

And based on the probability, since big schools have 75% of the students and small schools have 25% of the students, a state caliber wrestler is 3x as likely to be on a big school's sectional roster.  

So you're saying that big schools have distinct advantages?  If that is what you are saying then that is the case for class wrestling at both the individual and team levels.  Isn't that why they want classes for football?

 

I understand that this makes the case for a classed team tournament (I said that earlier).  Big schools are statistically more likely to have a greater number of kids who have the natural ability to be a state qualifier.  

 

But it doesn't make the case for a classed individual tournament.  If anything it makes the case that there is no advantage one way or the other.   If there were an advantage in being an individual from a big school why wouldn't the percentage of qualifiers be significantly greater than 75%?

I will ask these question again and don't mind the size of school....

Are more practice partners and more quality practice partners good for kids?

 

Are more paid coaches better for kids?

 

Are better facilities better for kids?

 

Is less pressure to be a 2 or 3 sport athlete better for a wrestler?

 

I say yes for all of those questions.  Now answer me this.... where would you more likely find a yes to all those questions?

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OK Y2, I know you got all kinds of numbers in there just waiting to get out. Lets see the break down of small school vs big school per weight class does it hold across the board, or are there a few weight classes that are skewing the numbers one way or the other. I would do it, but I am much better suited to ask questions then I am to answer them.......Guess I should have studied more in school.

 

I don't have those numbers.  Sorry

 

How can that be, you are the wrestling guru. Quite a few papers across the state are quoting your web site when they do a story on wrestling. Oh well, maybe someone with great computer skills and alot of time on their hands can figure it out. My guess, is that through the middle weights, you will see an even, or close to even split big/small, but as you get out to the upper and lower weights, the numbers skew to the big schools.

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Arizona is a class wrestling stae. The road to the state finals begins this Saturday. After 40 years of teaching , broadcasting, and coaching in a one class system, it should be interesting to see how it plays out. Until you've walked a mile in another man's moccasins etc. you know the rest. For the record, the IHSAA declared there would be class wrestling back in 1998, and set 2000 as the deadline. When the Bellmont and Mater Dai fans balked at the set up, the IHSAA backed down and have not been heard from again. Money talks, and nobody supports Indiana wrestling like  those two programs. With MD absent this year, will there be empty seats at Center Grove?  We'll see.

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