When do you hit a coach for a team Point

[macdaddy]

No sour grapes, just an opinion. That is what this board is about. My whole point is that all the "whining", "complaining", & arguing with the refs did not and would not have affected the outcome. We (Portage) are proud, but we are realist. We know that we are a rebuilding program. The team goal this year was to be competitive & have a winning season. Team State was not in the picture. We did close the gap, even as Crown Point improved. Last year, Portage only won 2 matches in our regular season match-up. CP got better, they added a bona-fide stud in Jason Tsirtsis. But overall, the Portage has closed the gap a bit. And that was the goal. Besides, this post has nothing to do with the Bulldogs. They are a very good team, and I wish them luck in the state finals. It also is not about the CP coaching staff, I don't blame them for fighting for their guys. It actually is about Refs allowing coaches to overstep their boundries and attempt to influence meets & matches. They (the Refs) should have made a stand, and even that would not have affected the outcome, I guess what I am saying is in this instance it did not matter. But "what if" it was close battle? Even if it was 2 other teams, everything on the line, the winner goes to state. The Refs have to take control. Put yourself in Jacob Lamb's shoes. How would you feel if that was your son or your team?

[midget5589]

Ask Merrillville. They managed to do it at their own Semi-State last year.

 

TheAncientElder (TAE)

 

The Imperial Potentate and Grand Poobah of Classless wrestling in Indiana.

I wear my Fez with pride.

 

www.theancientelder.net

 

 

yeah the lowell people were going nuts at ss last year...but they also seemed controlled and justified because i dont know about last night but the ref did call a pin in that match at ss and then took it away

[XCard]

I totally agree that you have to fight for your wrestler as a coach.  natlchamp2005, I did not think you deserved to be dinged last week.  You are allowed as a coach to question a call made by an official.  If you are wrong in your questioning you are supposed to be given a warning.  The next one being the deduction of a team point.  I do no think anyone is saying that any coaching staff should not fight for their wrestler.  However, last night I thought the CP staff was definitely deserving of at least a warning from the officials.  I am not 100% sure about this,but I thought one of them actually used the officials name in a rant.  It is one thing to walk the edge of the mat, but on more than one occasion they were actually in the cirlce.  I agree with macdaddy, I do not blame the Cp staff, because they are going to bend without breaking.  If the officials continue to allow this to be acceptable, you will continue to see it done.

[awood1]

I totally agree that you have to fight for your wrestler as a coach.  natlchamp2005, I did not think you deserved to be dinged last week.  You are allowed as a coach to question a call made by an official.  If you are wrong in your questioning you are supposed to be given a warning.  The next one being the deduction of a team point.  I do no think anyone is saying that any coaching staff should not fight for their wrestler.  However, last night I thought the CP staff was definitely deserving of at least a warning from the officials.  I am not 100% sure about this,but I thought one of them actually used the officials name in a rant.  It is one thing to walk the edge of the mat, but on more than one occasion they were actually in the cirlce.  I agree with macdaddy, I do not blame the Cp staff, because they are going to bend without breaking.  If the officials continue to allow this to be acceptable, you will continue to see it done.

 

It is sad but true...coaches are like kids.  They need boundaries and unless you estbalish those boundaries early and consistently enforce them, they will always be testing them.  On the flip side, a lot of parents get their panties in a bunch when a ref follows the letter of the law and claims that he is inflating his importance.  I am sure it will happen in IN someday also, but you should hear the ruccus in CA about the ref that called a kid for delaying the match as he took time to kneel and pray at the edge of the mat.  The kid wasn't ready, the ref made the call within the letter of the rule and all heck broke loose!  Refs can take control, the question is "Is that what you really want?"

[coacha_teambraves]

I dont know either coaches on either side and dont have a comment on the situation with them on the mat, as each official has there limits to when they will hit a coach with a UC, simply in my opinion as a coach for 20 years and as an official for 8 years as well, Its does not matter when the official slaps the mat, its when the official "sees" the fall, once the hand is in motion its all academic at that point if the buzzer goes off, its a fall, no ifs ands or buts!

 

Thats how I have always called it, and until told otherwise by the IHSAA, I will continue to do so.

 

 

 

Coach A

[tcooper1454]

I have seen on quite a few occasion this year where certain coaches have bullied referees into calls or have had calls reversed.  I am all for supporting and standing up for you wrestlers but sometimes it is crossing the line.  The refs need to stand by their calls if they feel that the it was the correct call not change it because a "well known" coach is making an arguement.  A referee let two kids wrestle for 45 seconds while a coach was 3 feet into the wrestling circle yelling at a referee during a sectional final.  That is ridiculous.

[Merlyn]

Ed, Tharp and Maldonado all work(ed) the refs with class and not whining.

 

As for the pin in the Roach-Santos match it may have been a pin but the ref waited and it should not have been called after about 10-15 seconds ran off the clock and the period ended.

 

I think you show your low class by questioning CP's. Besides, it is mighty convenient for your position to make a distinction between working the refs and "whining," when in reality there is no identifiable difference. You like some coaches, so they "work the refs"; you dislike others, so they "whine." It's all the same, the only difference is in your own personal bias.

[cbarnett]

All this chatter about Larry Tharp was giving me the warm and fuzzies and then out of nowhere, he emailed me about this very topic. He even threatened a return to coaching, but I'm trying to talk him in to becoming an official 

 

Congrats to all 4 teams last night, and good luck to CP at team state.

[rhayes]

Part of the problem is the way the officials are rated. We advance based on the ratings given by these same coaches. There are alot of coaches that will give you a bad rating because you hit him with a team point. One bad rating can keep you at regional level. I know alot of "veteran " official that never hit coaches with misconduct for that reason.  So that is the officials you end up with in the tourney series. How officials are rated needs to change before this problem can get resolved.

[Tennessee]

I think Merlyn makes a good point!  How can you actually tell if a Coach is working the refs or whining?  You can't!  Did CP have some bad calls on their guys?  Sure sounds like it!  Were they the better team and won?  Yes!  Has Portage beaten CP before?  Yes! 

[oldbuckeye]

There is a simple question that will answer this question about whinning or working; From the official, "Coach are you talking to me?" If the answer is yes, 1 point. If no, then set down. The only time a coach is to talk to the official is at the table. Then he can NOT question judgement.

 

The problem all starts with the Way the IHSAA has coaches rate officials. The officials are then afraid to make coaches unhappy. Because then they will not move on in the tourney. Officials have to figure out that with all of the politics and the rating system that the IHSAA really doesn't care if the best officials get to the state tourney or not. They just need bodies. And coaches have to ask why are young officials leaving the profession; because every coach in the world thinks they have to "work" him and by the end of a Saturday Tourney he doesn't care if he ever does it again. (We haven't even started talking about attempting to get contracts! Which every AD wants someone with regional experience or better.) Ask why it is that IHSAA has to admit officials in to the tourney series that do NOT meet the minimum requirements of what they (the IHSAA) list that an official must meet. And they were still 5 officials short. The question that needs to be asked, is how many officials did a sectional and did not meet the minimum requirements of what was expected? And why?

 

One of the problems is that some of the wrestling coaches went to the Bobby Knight school of "working officials" and have not heard of the words tact or diplomacy. You want better officials it is about time that you started working with the official and stop "working" the officials. And if officials would not let the coaches "work" them then it would make it easier on the next official that has that coach. Stop trying to be his friend! Be professional, be prepared, and make the call.

 

Let me sign off by saying, just one more old ref thinking of hanging up his wrestling shoes.

[greco supreme]

a coach represents his whole team and as a coach he is setting an example for his team.    I can see arguing a few bad calls but he was going a little overboard.  What would he of done if a kid on his team acted like that?  I am the kind of guy who like to see coaches right a wrong at the table,  but not take it overboard.

[TLad]

I have been an official since 1971 and over the course of the past 38 years, have seen coaches with every coaching style known to man.  Many of the so called "bully " coaches use to really get under my skin with their mat side antics.  It took nearly 20 years to harden myself to these guys, it is not easy for a new official, an experienced official or even a younger veteran to do.  Then there are those coaches that are a pleasure to work for, even when things don't go their way they are professional and really have the fair but firm demeanor about them even in times of disagreement.  After finishing my last rotation at the State Tournament in 2005, I decided to continue to officiate but forego the State Tournament series and let others have the opportunity to move up.  It was a great decision and one I have never regretted since.  I still work a full dual meet and Saturday Tournament schedule all season long.  Two of the past three seasons, the IHSAA has asked me to work a Sectional due to the fact that they were short officials.  Knowing that I am not going to advance past the Sectional, I can say without a doubt, that the tournament has been more fun and enjoyable to work.  My ratings continue to stay well towards the top 20 each year.  But the presuure of not trying to please every coach in every circumstance has given me a whole new perspective on officiating.  I think each official must ask themselves  on the way home from a Sectional/Regional/SemiState/State all day meet, " Did I having fun?" " Do I enjoy what I am doing? and "Did I have control of my matches?".  If the answer is No, then look closely at your schedule and your decision to continue to officiate.  If the answer is Yes, then stay with it as long as you enjoy it.  Coaches , both good ones, great ones and poor ones, have an uncanny ability to know who and who they cannot manipulate.  As an official, where do you feel you fit in?  To all those old timers, 25 years and more of officaiting, "God Bless You and the job you do".  Without you in the stripes,  the IHSAA would be 25-30 officials short each year, not just 5. 

 

Yours in Sport;

 

Tom LaDow

Logansport, IN

[iamonly1man]

excellent point Tom

 

I do not ever remember a coach and or a coach being able to walk and run the entire width of a mat and coach his kid during the battle.  I always  thought it is to be taped off or lined off.  The crown pt staff was on both west and north sides  of the mat and ranting up and down the mat, and sometimes nearly in the wide circle.  Hence officials take control and warn them. 

 

Questionable calls thru out.  Yet all in all some great wrestling.

[listenup20]

That is so not true.  Once the chairs moved to the east side of the mat they didn't move from that side except for the pin non-pin call.  All the fans (besides CP fans) have blown this whole subject out of proportion and is just plain ridiculous.  Vlink and Rodriguez went to bat for their wrestlers and got upset when horrible calls were made.  It's over - move on.

[awood1]

That is so not true.  Once the chairs moved to the east side of the mat they didn't move from that side except for the pin non-pin call.  All the fans (besides CP fans) have blown this whole subject out of proportion and is just plain ridiculous.  Vlink and Rodriguez went to bat for their wrestlers and got upset when horrible calls were made.  It's over - move on.

 

DING -1 pt.

 

On another note, we actually have 1 official here that I believe does a good job.  He consistently gets crap though, because people don't get it.  His procedure is as follows, one the shoulder are there he begins his count and IF a fall occurs, he blows his whistle and taps the offensive wrestler and then the mat.  As some other wise men pointed out, the slapping of the mat means that a fall HAS OCCURED!  In this case the ref holds the whistle in his mouth and AS SOON as the fall occurs, he blows his whistle, taps the winner (to let him know its over) and THEN raises his hand and slaps the mat.

 

To many people assume that once you have elevated your hand, that a fall has occured.  In any case, the raised hand could be nothing more than anticipation of a near fall going to fall.  In peoples desire for instant information, they overlook the fact that for good officials the slap of the mat is AFTER the fall and just because your hand is elevated in anticipation, does not mean that it is imminent.

[wrestlin4food]

I feel that the ref saw the pin and went to make the call but the kid moved his back off the mat and he stopped.  That SHOULD have been a pin.  With that said, I was under the impression that only one coach could go to the scorers table to argue the call.  I think I saw 3 or 4 of the CP coaches on the mat and two that ran over to the scorer.  I do not understand why there wasn't even a warning on them.  At the EC sectional i saw 1 LC coach walk to the table to argue a call and was ignored by the ref.  When the ref walked over I saw the coach mouth "i can't even explain myself?" or something of that and the team was hit with a point.  So I guess my question would be should there be a better guideline for the refs to follow as far as team points go for this?

[ontherise219]

To start the post I didn't use the name or even the team these men were from Obviously I wasn't the only one who saw this. The Coaches were less Argumentative during the Portage Dual as they were during the Merrillville Dual. This isn't a knock to the CP staff I was just wondering how far a ref would go before taking a point. I feel in such a huge dual with Merrillville I think that they would be relaxed. Not wanting to give a team point. Also thank you to all the Refs who gave  explanations there is nothing like first hand Experience

[philo bedoe]

I totally agree that you have to fight for your wrestler as a coach.  natlchamp2005, I did not think you deserved to be dinged last week.  You are allowed as a coach to question a call made by an official.  If you are wrong in your questioning you are supposed to be given a warning.  The next one being the deduction of a team point.  I do no think anyone is saying that any coaching staff should not fight for their wrestler.  However, last night I thought the CP staff was definitely deserving of at least a warning from the officials.  I am not 100% sure about this,but I thought one of them actually used the officials name in a rant.  It is one thing to walk the edge of the mat, but on more than one occasion they were actually in the cirlce.  I agree with macdaddy, I do not blame the Cp staff, because they are going to bend without breaking.  If the officials continue to allow this to be acceptable, you will continue to see it done.

 

I agree XCard. The problem is I don't belive I have ever seen this rule enforced. As a coach I usually try not to get worked up with the official unless it is a call that truly merits questioning. The problem comes when your sitting across the mat from coaches, similar to those mentioned above, who question and complain every single call that does not go their way. The referee allows this to continue and you end up feeling you have to start playing the same game just to get a fair shake. There is an easy soultion to preventing these circus like atmospheres, that is enforce the rules! If you get up and question a call, and your wrong, WARNING. Do it a second time, TEAM POINT! No exceptions. If all officials enforced this rule reguarly I think this would deter some coaches from  arguing even the simplest calls in an attempt to manipulate the officials.  

[natlchamp2005]

I totally agree that you have to fight for your wrestler as a coach.  natlchamp2005, I did not think you deserved to be dinged last week.  You are allowed as a coach to question a call made by an official.  If you are wrong in your questioning you are supposed to be given a warning.  The next one being the deduction of a team point.  I do no think anyone is saying that any coaching staff should not fight for their wrestler.  However, last night I thought the CP staff was definitely deserving of at least a warning from the officials.  I am not 100% sure about this,but I thought one of them actually used the officials name in a rant.  It is one thing to walk the edge of the mat, but on more than one occasion they were actually in the cirlce.  I agree with macdaddy, I do not blame the Cp staff, because they are going to bend without breaking.  If the officials continue to allow this to be acceptable, you will continue to see it done.

 

I agree XCard. The problem is I don't belive I have ever seen this rule enforced. As a coach I usually try not to get worked up with the official unless it is a call that truly merits questioning. The problem comes when your sitting across the mat from coaches, similar to those mentioned above, who question and complain every single call that does not go their way. The referee allows this to continue and you end up feeling you have to start playing the same game just to get a fair shake. There is an easy soultion to preventing these circus like atmospheres, that is enforce the rules! If you get up and question a call, and your wrong, WARNING. Do it a second time, TEAM POINT! No exceptions. If all officials enforced this rule reguarly I think this would deter some coaches from  arguing even the simplest calls in an attempt to manipulate the officials.  

 

Thank you XCard.  Some refs do enforce the warning then conduct pt.  Just not all of them.  The refs that don't may need more classes?  dunno...  How much education is the ISHAA giving these guys?  Are they just giving them one test that is open book, pass with a 75%, and your certified as an official? 

[Bomber]

Great Observation! Coach Peck!!!!!

[iamonly1man]

i am only speaking about the match against the pirates.  it seemed as though the cp staff actually was wrestling,  ugh coaching on the entire mat during the dual..  this should be stopped directly and warned.  it was not.  I think they won the battle at rattling and getting the stripes completely out of sorts. 

[rocketsurgery]

 

 

Twice at the Twin Lakes sectional a referee hit the mat signaling a pin and then, after the fact, waved it off.  Neither time did  the period run out.  Both times the ref's decision allowed the bottom guy to get off his back. I have never seen anything like it.  And, by the way, it cost Winamac the sectional title as one of their guys had a pin waved off. That match ended in a score of 8-7 for the Winamac wrestler so they lost the two points for the pin and Winamac lost the sectional by a half point. 

 

 

[BlueBolt]

The moment they step off the bus in the parking lot in many cases...

 

 

[Joker]

You can't really blame the cp coaches (or any other coach for that matter) they have been doing this for a long time and if they can get away with it why not.

Like the kids say don't hate the playa hate the game.