CLASS WRESTLING!!

[AJ]

I know you are busy,which is why I am making all my points now! I know EMD had the most, but I was referring to only the big schools.

By the way.  I think that regions are dominating wrestling more so than only big schools.

[NickS]

I personally believe class wrestling would help improve the number of kids in the room at the programs that are struggling and having a hard time filling a line-up or having decent JV numbers.

Certain programs are struggling because their in a single-class system or is it because of the coaching staff quality and/or lack of culture?  Walsh Jesuit was a national powerhouse during the mid-90's in Ohio Division 1.  Since then, they've dropped to Division 2 and is still a strong program but not NEAR where it was during the mid-90's.  Why is that?  Is it simply because they're Division 2 now?  I find that hard to believe.

[~B~DOGG~SMASH~]

You just need to stop with this class wrestling nonsense.  I would be angry if I wrestled at a small school & didn't get the chance to wrestle the best.  Nothing is wrong with the way it is!  Leave it alone!!!!!!

[KarlHungus]

You just need to stop with this class wrestling nonsense.  I would be angry if I wrestled at a small school & didn't get the chance to wrestle the best.  Nothing is wrong with the way it is!  Leave it alone!!!!!!

HOGWASH!

[D-train]

hey mtv2112.  is that a rush reference?  if so, awsome.

Yes, 2112 is the Anthem that leads the Working Man, via a ride in his Red Barchetta, to Xanadu.

You are the first person to ever notice and I have used that handle, in various forms, for years.

In The End, me and Tom Sawyer were walking through Red Sector A on our way to La Villa Strangiato.  we were walking past The Trees, when we decided to take A Passage To Bankok to Lake Side Park instead.

[mtv2112]

I personally believe class wrestling would help improve the number of kids in the room at the programs that are struggling and having a hard time filling a line-up or having decent JV numbers.

Certain programs are struggling because their in a single-class system or is it because of the coaching staff quality and/or lack of culture?  Walsh Jesuit was a national powerhouse during the mid-90's in Ohio Division 1.  Since then, they've dropped to Division 2 and is still a strong program but not NEAR where it was during the mid-90's.  Why is that?  Is it simply because they're Division 2 now?  I find that hard to believe.

I suspect that the great programs have one thing in common - excellent hard working coaches (duh).  I don't know how to define excellent coaching, but hard working coaching should include a consistent coaching philosophy from the high school level down through middle school and elementary levels, travel program opportunities, and many dedicated volunteers.  If the coach is making more than about a nickel an hour, he probably isn't putting in enough time to make the program a powerhouse.  That is not to say the head coach is also coaching the youth programs, but he should take an active interest in it.  Help encourage kids.  Get the youth kids and parents to the high school meets. Increase interest level and so on.

In the Evansville area, there are three dominant teams:  Mater Dei, Castle, and Reitz.  They have seem to have the program qualities described above.

[wrestlin4food]

I like the idea of individual wrestling to be one class.  Is there any way we can make the team tourny a class tourny.  Team sectionals could be the week before the individual sectional.  That would make it so team regionals would only have 2 or 4 teams so that could be held on the Weds after individual sectionals just like they are now.  The team sectionals would of course be different than the individual sectionals because not all the teams in the individual will be in the same class.  This will prevent some teams from complaining that people will be wrestling the same guys right before the individual sectional.  There will of course be some matchups that will be the same but that will be the coach's decision to bump a guy so it won't happen.  The team sectionals could be single elimination and seedings will be based on the same things that decide team seedings in some of the big team tournys. 

Every single aspect will be the same except having a team sectionals a week before individual sectionals.  Since a team tourny using classes will make it smaller amount of schools we could easily cut out the team semi-state.  Indiana used to use the individual state tournament to decide the team state champion.  We changed that so why not change the way we do sectionals?  This will take away "byes" and "FF'" in the first round of sectionals from deciding what team advances.

[countinlights]

I am by no means in favor of class wrestling, however, if it were to come down to that, I would be in favor of allowing a school to 'opt' into an 'open' class...which would in effect prevent the elite class teams from dominating a particular class as well as satisfy their desire to compete against those schools who might be traditional powers.

[Y2CJ41]

The IHSAA already allows that.  There are a couple football teams that play up a class.

[BlueBolt]

Ok...Class Wrestling in Indiana...Boy I sure am glad someone opened up a new and previously unthought of topic here!   


Year in and Year out we watch smaller schools walk out onto the mats and literally pound the day lights out of schools with 3 or 4 times the enrollment.  So the number of bodies in the halls is NOT the measuring stick.

Case in point...In Southern Indiana we have far fewer "Large Schools" than in Central and Northern Indiana.  It's just a matter of demographics.  In the Evansville area for instance there are only 2 Class 5-A schools where the football play offs are concerned.  Both of these schools are at the very small end of the 5-A scale as far as enrollments go. 

BUT - there are a ton of 3-A and 4-A sized schools as well as a fair number of 2-A schools in the surrounding area. 

Each wrestling season these schools meet up and wrestle.  It is amazing to see a 2-A or 3-A school show up to a meet with more kids at weigh ins than a 5-A school has on it's entire roster.    So this begs the question:

How would a Class system work?  Would it be based on school enrollment?   That is obviously not an accurate or fair way of making this division since the enrollment of a school is obviously not an indicator as to how many wrestlers reside within it's walls.  Keep in mind the dominance of the team state competition by a 3-A school for all these years.  Not to mention the numbers of wrestlers from small and mid-sized schools at Individual Tourney. 

Would it be based on the number of kids in the wrestling room?  Well that's just impossible to manage year in and year out and would be far to easy to manipulate. 

From what I can see, it's not about the over all numbers in the program (although it obviously helps to have a good crop!) but the character and commitment of those kids, the coaches, and support systems who make up the program!

I used to have a coach that made his point very clear as often as possible..."I don't care if I only have one kid left in my room the day of the first meet...That kid will be READY to work and hungry to win!".   And he MEANT IT!

[tspray1]

so blue are you in favor of class football?

[Y2CJ41]

so blue are you in favor of class football?

It has ruined football and no one goes to the play-off games because we don't know who the "true" champion is.

[NickS]

It has ruined football and no one goes to the play-off games because we don't know who the "true" champion is.

Hey, you're finally coming around. 

[BlueBolt]

so blue are you in favor of class football?

To me it is an Apples and Oranges comparison of sorts.  I only used the comparision to give some structure to the point of school size as it relates to participation.

To keep the point in perspective, wrestling is by it's very definition an individual sport first...and a team sport second.  If the individual steps on the mat and does what he has worked to do, then the team outcome will follow if all are working as hard as they can as individuals.   No one there to pick up the slack or lend a hand.  It's just the wrestler and that six minute monster he has to tame.

If I had to give and answer to your question, I would have to say Yes - for Football I am in favor of it...althought I think it needs a total overhaul in its implimentation.  But even as it stands, we see 3-A schools kicking the daylights out of 5-A schools year in and year out and 2-A schools who can play with the big schools on any given weekend.  It's more about the skill sets of the teams and what they bring to the table.   As I said, obviously have  a larger pool of talent available to a program greatly increases the odds, but every year we see the "exceptions".  

To sum this up...as weird as it sounds...do we have a "Class System" for High School Debate or Chess?   Or how about Swimming/Diving orTrack and Field?  I am guessing the answer is NO.  Why not?   Well that would be because of the following:

A.  These are individual based activities that focus more on the individual performance than that of the team.
B.  Not a huge source of revenue for the IHSAA or the Education System of Indiana.  

[KarlHungus]

so blue are you in favor of class football?

To me it is an Apples and Oranges comparison of sorts.  I only used the comparision to give some structure to the point of school size as it relates to participation.

To keep the point in perspective, wrestling is by it's very definition an individual sport first...and a team sport second.  If the individual steps on the mat and does what he has worked to do, then the team outcome will follow if all are working as hard as they can as individuals.   No one there to pick up the slack or lend a hand.  It's just the wrestler and that six minute monster he has to tame.

If I had to give and answer to your question, I would have to say Yes - for Football I am in favor of it...althought I think it needs a total overhaul in its implimentation.  But even as it stands, we see 3-A schools kicking the daylights out of 5-A schools year in and year out and 2-A schools who can play with the big schools on any given weekend.  It's more about the skill sets of the teams and what they bring to the table.   As I said, obviously have  a larger pool of talent available to a program greatly increases the odds, but every year we see the "exceptions".  

To sum this up...as weird as it sounds...do we have a "Class System" for High School Debate or Chess?   Or how about Swimming/Diving orTrack and Field?  I am guessing the answer is NO.  Why not?   Well that would be because of the following:

A.  These are individual based activities that focus more on the individual performance than that of the team.
B.  Not a huge source of revenue for the IHSAA or the Education System of Indiana.  

However the state does have a tournament series for the entire teams.  All other sports that have the required participation level have class team champions. (baseball, volleyball, etc).  They are non revenue generators also.  I'm guessing the state wrestling series brings in more then baseball and volleyball combined.  The IHSAA should be consistant and have a classed wrestling team state series at the very least.

[Y2CJ41]

so blue are you in favor of class football?

To me it is an Apples and Oranges comparison of sorts.  I only used the comparision to give some structure to the point of school size as it relates to participation.

To keep the point in perspective, wrestling is by it's very definition an individual sport first...and a team sport second.  If the individual steps on the mat and does what he has worked to do, then the team outcome will follow if all are working as hard as they can as individuals.   No one there to pick up the slack or lend a hand.  It's just the wrestler and that six minute monster he has to tame.

If I had to give and answer to your question, I would have to say Yes - for Football I am in favor of it...althought I think it needs a total overhaul in its implimentation.  But even as it stands, we see 3-A schools kicking the daylights out of 5-A schools year in and year out and 2-A schools who can play with the big schools on any given weekend.  It's more about the skill sets of the teams and what they bring to the table.   As I said, obviously have  a larger pool of talent available to a program greatly increases the odds, but every year we see the "exceptions".  

To sum this up...as weird as it sounds...do we have a "Class System" for High School Debate or Chess?   Or how about Swimming/Diving orTrack and Field?  I am guessing the answer is NO.  Why not?   Well that would be because of the following:

A.  These are individual based activities that focus more on the individual performance than that of the team.
B.  Not a huge source of revenue for the IHSAA or the Education System of Indiana.  

I know for academic teams there are classes for their state championships.

[BlueBolt]

[/quote]

I know for academic teams there are classes for their state championships.
[/quote]

I hate to say it but I have no idea if they do or not (I'll take your word for it though).   Sort of sad that the Academic teams are pushed harder by the people in charge of Academics ain't it!   LOL

[KarlHungus]

Huh?

[tspray1]

Then I say that if wrestling is only a indvidual sport then we should outlaw all use of the  "dual meet"  It is built on a team format and, in the sport of wrestling its all about hard you as an individual train..  Wrestling is unlike any other individual sport we battle another person we need another person to train with. Track, Swimming, Golf those sports you are competing against a clock or a course..

[BingoBangoBongo]

So if we go to class wrestling for individual state championship more "small school" wrestlers will go to state. Without class wrestling these kids would not normally make it to the tourney. So how does them just getting an easier road to the state finals making them any better? They still have the same coaches the same workout partners etc... so what is magically making them better.

[KarlHungus]

So if we go to class wrestling for individual state championship more "small school" wrestlers will go to state. Without class wrestling these kids would not normally make it to the tourney. So how does them just getting an easier road to the state finals making them any better? They still have the same coaches the same workout partners etc... so what is magically making them better.

Who ever claimed this?

[mtv2112]

  Warning - - - Tongue in Cheek - - - Warning   

Just divide the state into 3 or more divisions, but instead of basing membership in a division based upon size, make teams earn their spot in a particular division similar to how the English soccer leagues are structured (bring on the boos, I don't care).  Therefore, you have a Championship division for teams at the top of the heap.  The bottom 10% drop down to the 2nd tier, top 2nd tier teams move up to fill the voids.  Have as many tiers as you want.  The teams that really want to earn a title can get it in the "Chapionship Division".  Those that want a cheap, meaningless plastic trophy can fight it out in all the sub-tiers until they are good enough for the top tier.  This would provide for a true team state champion and yet provide incentive for other teams to compete for something.  The wrestling season might last longer than NHL, but you don't have to  have any doubt on who the real champion is.  This might be better than what we have now.  At least every team would have a finishing position.

Division 1:  Championship
Division 2:  We Try
Division 3:  Posers
Division 4:  Pretenders
Division 5:  We Have More Forfeits Than Wrestlers

[Y2CJ41]

If you want to go that far, why not have a single weight class?  Is the 103lb state champion really the true state champion of wrestling? 

[tspray1]

agreed we should just have 1 weight.  I mean its an individual sport why should we have sperate weight "classes"?  Wait I know its because of the size diferential.

[Y2CJ41]

But if that 103lber worked hard he could beat a few 285lbers, I'm sure.