The Lucky Duck Award

[Bash513]

Actually the NCAA basketball tournament does rank the top 4 teams and puts them in brackets were #1 would face#4 in the semifinals amd #2 would face #3 in the other semifinal if all 4 ! sedds made it to the final four.

After the top 4, everything else is geography.

I disagree.

• The NCAA uses an "S curve," meaning it ranks all 65 teams in order 1-65, then places them in regions under the theory the top No. 1 seed would have the worst No. 2 seed in its bracket, the worst No. 1 seed would have the top No. 2 seed, etc. The balancing of the regions is the most important factor in seeding the tournament.
• As far as other rules go, teams from the same conference hopefully won't meet until a regional final, but the NCAA has relaxed that because some conferences have six and seven bids (it's even permissible for an intraconference matchup in the second round, though that is to be avoided whenever possible). But the first three teams selected from a given conference must be in different regions.
• Higher-seeded teams should be placed as close to home as possible. No team may play on its home floor, but most sites are "neutral courts" anyway.
• Teams can move up or down a spot or two in the "S-curve," maybe even a seed, to preserve other principles.

[wrestlingguy]

Oscar,

If we go by your theory, we need to go back to the history of Indiana wrestling and take away the runner-up titles from all the individual runners-up because they didn't earn that title because we don't see the individual tournament either.  The two "best" guys could meet in the semi-finals...both being semi-state champs put in the same half of the state bracket.  Listen to what your momma told you when you were younger, SOMETIMES LIFE ISN'T FAIR! 

[Trinedad]

If you really want to put everyone in a tizzy seed it the way they do the schoolboy duals. It is seeded based on how the team from your state did the year before. So as the teams from different super regionals advance, they improve the seeding for the team that wins that super regional next year. This is a very arbitrary way to do it, but no more so then a blind draw, and if certain areas of the state are consistently producing state champs, or runners up, then that will be seen in the seeding from year to year. It has to be better then trying to have a seeding meeting. Of course I would like to read the minutes of that meeting.

[GrecoCoach]

Warrendad,

USAWrestling does not use last year's team placement to seed the National Duals for Schoolboys, Cadets, or Juniors.  They use a point system where the past accomplishments of each individual on the current team are totalled, and seeds are based on that.

Accomplishments used include national champ, all-american, triple crown, regional champ, regional placewinner. 

From what I have heard, Ohio's dual state tournament is organized this way, only they use previous high school placements to determine which teams are "invited" to team state.  Our system may not be perfect, but it's better than Ohio's.

Sure the runner-up may not be the second best team in the state, but you have to admit that they deserve to be recognized for what they had to go through to get to that point.  Give them the runner-up trophy and rings!

[Oscar]

Oscar,

If we go by your theory, we need to go back to the history of Indiana wrestling and take away the runner-up titles from all the individual runners-up because they didn't earn that title because we don't see the individual tournament either.  The two "best" guys could meet in the semi-finals...both being semi-state champs put in the same half of the state bracket.  Listen to what your momma told you when you were younger, SOMETIMES LIFE ISN'T FAIR! 

What is done in the past is done I am not suggesting that we reverse anything. I believe we just need to make adjustments for the better. What I suggest makes it more important to work hard all year to position yourself for a higher seed to increase your chances of making it to the finals instead of always waiting for the lucky draw. The lucky draw has greater implications than who you face in the finals. Just look at this year. One team in bracket "A" will face two of the toughest teams before they get to the finals. However in bracket 'B'  two teams have little chance of really competing and I think head to head season matches show that. All I am saying is use criteria and coaches meeting to seed teams  #1 thru #8 and stop relying on "chance" to give you an easier road to the finals.

PS: Don't Be Talking About My Momma!!!!  " Some times life isn't fair" point understood and taken but it isn't about fairness it is about what I believe would be more valid and better. No offense  on the momma thing. My momma told me that also but then she said go out and kick some ..... well you no. It wasn't English but I understood her.

[wrestlingguy]

Who are the teams in bracket "B" that have little chance of competing?  And who is to say that they have little chance of competing.  People said that the Arizona Cardinals had no chance of winning a single game in the playoffs and look where they ended up.  Opinions are always skewed.

[Oscar]

Who are the teams in bracket "B" that have little chance of competing?  And who is to say that they have little chance of competing.  People said that the Arizona Cardinals had no chance of winning a single game in the playoffs and look where they ended up.  Opinions are always skewed.

No names please. I am not trying to disrespect anyone . All participating teams are top 20. I do not disagree with that. That is in fact about geography.  I just feel they should be seeded once they get there. #1 vs #8  and #2 vs #7, #3 vs #6 and #4 vs #5. Use your own ranking system and let me know what you think.

[BlueBolt]

So when will people FINALLY catch on to the fact that seeding just doesn't really work?


At bet it provide a starting point...at worst if forces a face off with a tough opponant earlier than you may like, or maybe not at all - just depends on the brackets.

Why not just draw the brackets and let the competitors battle it out like they will have to anyway?

[Oscar]

Since no one has offered any plauseable reason why we do not seed these final 8 teams, I must assume the state of Indiana Wrestling Community just prefers a lucky duck system. As I said "that is ok" but it makes red rings and runner-up trophies simply "feel good awards". Way back when my midget son entered a tournament and no one showed up at his wt. class. He was struggling in his beginning years and I just wanted him to "feel good" about himself and the sport. I knew it was meaningless but I put out the $25 so he could get the gold medal and get his name in the ISWA Book.And he "Felt Good". He is grown up now and we laugh about it today. I tease him that he owes me $25 bucks. It worked though he went on to be a pretty damn good wrestler and even went on to wrestle in college. Maybe we just have not matured enough as a state. I hope in time and believe we will.

Stop comparing this to basketbal and compare it to college wrestling. Do they qualify and seed in college wrestling? Do they hand out a runner-up trophy? I do not know the exact format but I do know they are not handing out awards just to make someone feel good. As I said before, our state format is fine if you just stop handing out meaningless metals and trophies. If we insist on handing them out we should put a format in place which makes one fight for position rather than placing them with a hat pick or a flip of the coin. We need to stop whining "it is too hard" it is im-possible This is wrestling and that is what the quitters in this sport whine when you ask them why they are not wrestling anymore. It is the exact reason I Love this sport.

[Hillbilly JIM]

I think the losing Coaches from each of the Regional Finals should be polled for seedings

[J-Biceps]

Since no one has offered any plauseable reason why we do not seed these final 8 teams, I must assume the state of Indiana Wrestling Community just prefers a lucky duck system. As I said "that is ok" but it makes red rings and runner-up trophies simply "feel good awards". Way back when my midget son entered a tournament and no one showed up at his wt. class. He was struggling in his beginning years and I just wanted him to "feel good" about himself and the sport. I knew it was meaningless but I put out the $25 so he could get the gold medal and get his name in the ISWA Book.And he "Felt Good". He is grown up now and we laugh about it today. I tease him that he owes me $25 bucks. It worked though he went on to be a pretty damn good wrestler and even went on to wrestle in college. Maybe we just have not matured enough as a state. I hope in time and believe we will.

Stop comparing this to basketbal and compare it to college wrestling. Do they qualify and seed in college wrestling? Do they hand out a runner-up trophy? I do not know the exact format but I do know they are not handing out awards just to make someone feel good. As I said before, our state format is fine if you just stop handing out meaningless metals and trophies. If we insist on handing them out we should put a format in place which makes one fight for position rather than placing them with a hat pick or a flip of the coin. We need to stop whining "it is too hard" it is im-possible This is wrestling and that is what the quitters in this sport whine when you ask them why they are not wrestling anymore. It is the exact reason I Love this sport.

The only reason that needs to be stated, has been, MULTIPLE times already.  They do not seed ANY other HS state finals here in Indiana so they are not going to do it for wrestling.  It doesn't matter how much you like the sport, it is not that important to the people in charge of the IHSAA.

[italianmom]

I am not real familiar with this topic but is that a stated IHSAA position with respect to seeding wrestling? Just trying to educate myself.

[J-Biceps]

I am not real familiar with this topic but is that a stated IHSAA position with respect to seeding wrestling? Just trying to educate myself.

Their position is that they do not seed state tournaments, so there is little chance they'll make an exception just for wrestling.

[Oscar]

I am not real familiar with this topic but is that a stated IHSAA position with respect to seeding wrestling? Just trying to educate myself.

Their position is that they do not seed state tournaments, so there is little chance they'll make an exception just for wrestling.

Thank you J-biceps. Your response to the above question  satisfies my curiosity as to why they will not seed. I honestly did not  know because I was never involved in any earlier discussions. You sound knowledgeable so if you can please tell me, is it really that difficult to seed and do you feel it would be more valid?
This could be opening up another can of worms and I am sure it has already been discussed. I am only seeking to understand. My "momma" also told me that the only stupid question is the one you don't know the answer to and are afraid to ask.

[Y2CJ41]

The IHSAA would only seed wrestling if they did it for all the other team state tournaments.  You can call all the state runners-up in those sports "lucky ducks" too as they are lucky they didn't see the state champion at sectional, regional or semi-state. 

There is no valid way to seed the teams at the state finals.  Most have not wrestled eachother and the common opponents they would have they all most likely beat them anyway.  You can't go by scores of matches either.  Going on rankings is bush league and would lead to coaches voting their friends or own team higher so they get seeded better. 

If you want to call a team that finishes second in the state a "lucky duck," then so be it, but in order to be that "lucky duck" they have to go through some very strong programs and there is nothing LUCKY about that.

[AJ]

How do they award the 3rd place medals?

[Y2CJ41]

To both teams that lost in the semi-finals

[littlevito]

As I said "that is ok" but it makes red rings and runner-up trophies simply "feel good awards".

I doubt any wrestler that walks away from Team State finishing Runners-Up feels like they are just receiving a "feel good award".  I know when we received out "Final Four" medals, we wore them proud as could be when we walked out of Center Grove and wore them proud at school that following Monday.  It went to show what our hard work got us through the season.  That is pathetic to think that that those awards are just "feel good awards".

[AJ]

To both teams that lost in the semi-finals

That is what I thought. 

[GloryDays66]

Why seed the tournament, finish it the way it started like all the other sports in Indiana, location. This is not college where only certain teams compete, everyone wrestles at sectionals, everyone had to beat someone to get here. Team State is Team State if you don't like it don't show up! Otherwise, show up wrestle your 3 matches, win and don't worry about those crying while walking out the doors about their draws. If you are this concerned about your draws, you better watch out for the team your over looking if you want to leave with any hardware from CG. Also, call the runner-up trophy what you want, it is what it is. The team was one of 2 teams to walk away with 2 wins on the day. If you seed the team then why wouldn't you be seeding the individual, there are 4 semi-state champs that show up on Friday I hear. You take what your given and you earn the rest!

[CoachRyan_Delta]

The IHSAA wants to find a champion.  This system does that.  It's their philosophy in all IHSAA sports.
I'm not saying that I agree with that necessarily, but it's the way it is.

[Oscar]

I try hard not to be macho and egotistical. Respect is one of cornerstones of my beliefs. I fully respect all individuals and teams who achieve at this sport past, present and future. As I said I was just seeking to understand and learn. Some of what I say or do is for effect, ie. LUCKY DUCK was used to get attention, especially of those who disrespect other individuals and teams by using thier accomplisments as a reason to do so. Humility is another cornerstone of my beliefs. I have been taught that you can only achieve greatness if someone or some being greater than you allows it. I hope that I am not the only one who has learned something during this discussion. The real point of this discussion comes down to two words.

[Y2CJ41]

Those two words being "Lucky Duck?"

[Oscar]

No Y2 guess again!  It  is Macho and Egotistical. One good laugh deserves another.