Howe world #2?

[buscowrestling]

Given the fact that Burroughs was able to take the gold, and that Howe was seemingly pretty close with him it would seem that an argument could be made that Howe is possibly the second best in the world at his weight. I honestly am not all that educated on this, but it seems realistic, just wondering what others with more knowledge think.

[maligned]

I've thought all year that Howe has wrestled at a level that probably puts him in the 2-4 range in terms of pound-for-pound Americans.  He's just unproven on the international level, so it's hard to say for sure.

It's tough to say he's the second best in the world at 74kg though.  Howe has always lost matches in world events.  Tsargush the Russian and Goudarzi the Iranian lose to each other or Burroughs and that's it (aside from Tsargush losing a meaningless wrestleback match after Burroughs shocked him for the first time last year).  No one else touches those two guys.  If you didn't see the Burroughs/Tsargush matches yesterday and last year, it's hard to express how much of a coin flip they are.  I don't think Howe, despite wrestling Burroughs so close, is quite at that level.  I do believe he's capable of beating anyone in the world and would have been one of our top medal contenders, but I would rate him behind those guys until he has a chance to prove he can beat the world's best.  The weakness Burroughs has is that his defense can get lazy, he'll surrender a takedown, and he'll end up losing a period if he can't get a good look at a shot for 2 minutes.  Howe is one of several non-world medalists to take him to a 3-period match in the last two years before Burroughs eked it out.

[1oldwrestler]

The weakness Burroughs has is that his defense can get lazy, he'll surrender a takedown, and he'll end up losing a period if he can't get a good look at a shot for 2 minutes.

Maligned - you always give cogent and thoughtful analysis and this post is no exception but im not sure about what I've quoted above.  When I watch burroughs it looks like he hits takedowns whenever her wants to.  I didn't see the iranian in the olympic gold m..edal match (in the last 20 secs of either period) get out of position or offer to burroughs any better of an opportunity for a takedown than he had in the first 1:40 of the periods.  I wouldnt say he got lazy against the russian in the second period, that dude is just good but burroughs is just better.

[maligned]

The weakness Burroughs has is that his defense can get lazy, he'll surrender a takedown, and he'll end up losing a period if he can't get a good look at a shot for 2 minutes.

Maligned - you always give cogent and thoughtful analysis and this post is no exception but im not sure about what I've quoted above.  When I watch burroughs it looks like he hits takedowns whenever her wants to.  I didn't see the iranian in the olympic gold m..edal match (in the last 20 secs of either period) get out of position or offer to burroughs any better of an opportunity for a takedown than he had in the first 1:40 of the periods.  I wouldnt say he got lazy against the russian in the second period, that dude is just good but burroughs is just better.

My point is just this: Burroughs' offense is absolutely without peer--but he can be scored on.  And sometimes when I've seen him get scored on, he didn't seem as focused as when the match was absolutely last-gasp, on-the-line.  For instance, I don't know if Burroughs gives up the points he did against Gentry if he didn't have the wiggle-room that he did with score or time.  Maybe lazy is too strong of a word, but I think he has lapses in intensity in grueling matches--predicated on the situation.   And I only mention it to say that it's enough of a pattern that I can't (with true objectivity) agree that Howe's close match with Burroughs means he's in the world #2 discussion yet.

[Y2CJ41]

Howe would be a contender to medal if he were in the games, but with Tsargush and Goudarzi in the mix it is hard to tell how he would do against those two.  Howe lost to Russia's #2 at the Olympic test event in London which was in December.

[Ahawkeye]

One thing can surely be said of the wretlers named above..... They are ALL BAAAAAAAD DUDES! You can pick at their offence or defence down wresling or on their feet. When it comes down to it they will all beat your head in to the mat if they want. I watched some of the olympics and I'd get mad at the comentators (the former olympians) that would scoff at or tell us how horible  a person exicuted a move or a set or what ever. These people worked their butts off and are on the biggest stage in the world they can beat anyone except the guy or gal in front of them and can probably out score out run out whatever it is that comentator too. I guess my point is this, is Howe #2 in the world? Who knows, but the differance between #1 and #25 could be huge, the differance between #25 and the rest of us washed up guys behind a keybord is infinate, we'd never last a minute with these guys. No offence to you guys I'm not saying anything is wrong with the conversation but the guys behind the mic would get their head handed to them by these guys if they were on the mat.... Just sayin'

[1oldwrestler]

One thing can surely be said of the wretlers named above..... They are ALL BAAAAAAAD DUDES! You can pick at their offence or defence down wresling or on their feet. When it comes down to it they will all beat your head in to the mat if they want. I watched some of the olympics and I'd get mad at the comentators (the former olympians) that would scoff at or tell us how horible  a person exicuted a move or a set or what ever. These people worked their butts off and are on the biggest stage in the world they can beat anyone except the guy or gal in front of them and can probably out score out run out whatever it is that comentator too. I guess my point is this, is Howe #2 in the world? Who knows, but the differance between #1 and #25 could be huge, the differance between #25 and the rest of us washed up guys behind a keybord is infinate, we'd never last a minute with these guys. No offence to you guys I'm not saying anything is wrong with the conversation but the guys behind the mic would get their head handed to them by these guys if they were on the mat.... Just sayin'

Good post but the talking heads are just doing their jobs explaining the action on the mat.  Heck, I don't want to tangle with my 20 year old anymore let alone someone who's involved with collegiate or international wrestling no matter what level they are.  However, I agree with you that I find it humerous when when a guy posts on here about one of these elite guys as having "lazy takedown defense." 

[maligned]

Gees, guys, it's just discussion.  I guess I should have prefaced my comments with the obvious pre-cursor that all these dudes would tech me before I blinked.  But I thought that was understood.    We're obviously splitting hairs trying to analyze the best of the best against each other.  They're all unbelievable, and they all certainly deserve our respect for their work and accomplishments.  Someone asked the question about whether Howe is in the world #2 discussion, and I offered an opinion.  Suggesting someone can't offer an informed opinion from a distance just because they can't do the thing they're critiquing is suggesting that we should all watch all top-level sports in silence from now on.

[profestler]

I didn't see the iranian in the olympic gold m..edal match (in the last 20 secs of either period) get out of position or offer to burroughs any better of an opportunity for a takedown than he had in the first 1:40 of the periods.

I disagree -- The Iranian started biting on Burrough's feints and that created the openings -- That is when Burroughs is at his best against these top level guys, when he can get them to bite on his feints - when people don't bite he can still find offense but those are the periods he has lost (in some cases).

[Ahawkeye]

Gees, guys, it's just discussion.  I guess I should have prefaced my comments with the obvious pre-cursor that all these dudes would tech me before I blinked.  But I thought that was understood.    We're obviously splitting hairs trying to analyze the best of the best against each other.  They're all unbelievable, and they all certainly deserve our respect for their work and accomplishments.  Someone asked the question about whether Howe is in the world #2 discussion, and I offered an opinion.  Suggesting someone can't offer an informed opinion from a distance just because they can't do the thing they're critiquing is suggesting that we should all watch all top-level sports in silence from now on.

I'm not saying that, I more or less was talking about the guys on TV. It does get a little nasty on here during the HS post season please don't think I'm throwing you into this crowd I do enjoy reading opinions about wrestlers. This conversation just kind of sparked that thought and how I felt when watching and litening to the TV comentaters. Maybe I should have reconsidered how I posted my response. Don't think of that post as directed at you but more of a randome thought.

[Y2CJ41]

All TV commentators critique coach/player decisions during their broadcasts.  The same with sportstalk radio hosts and such. 

[wildcatcountry97]

ah - Maligned - you feel my pain!

And the answer to the thread is no.

If Howe can win some international tournaments we can talk. This is about the same as all the talk of Andew Luck being the next great NFL star because of the preseason. He may be, but we certainly haven't seen enough to make even a guess at this point. Same for Howe.