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digninrk

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Olympic trials
« on: April 24, 2012, 06:19:17 PM »
I don't know how anyone else feels about this, but I just watched day two of the Olympic trials and can not undstand how the rules can be so terrible.  I am especially upset over the Metcalf and Simmons last match.  In both cases, the inferior wrestler won, which brings out a few questions I have.  Maybe some of you that are more familiar with freestyle can inform me or complain with me.
- can we even call freestyle wrestling the way it is today wrestling? It looks more like judo to me.
-why is fitness not stressed in freestyle? (I'm serious here) is it because the rest of the world knows how much folk style is stressed in the US and the FILA rules are made to counter our superior fitness?
-why is the passive wrestler rewarded? I particulary hate when two points are awarded when someone is in on a shot and they get flipped to their side 90 degrees for two points.
-what does a push out have to do with wrestling?
-how can there be video review in wrestling?
-winning a top line freestyle match is 50% luck, how can a draw be involved?

Maybe I am just partial to folk style and don't understand the nuances of freestyle, but the best wrestler does not always win unlike folk style.  I will say though, the matches were very exciting, probably more than folk style, but it was artificially created drama, not the best man wins.

I wrote this on my iPad, the autocorrect sucks, pardon the errors.


Dingo Brigade

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Re: Olympic trials
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2012, 07:05:58 PM »
We can agree to disagree, but I thought the best wrestler, on these two days at least, won all the qualifying matches. The best of three format gives each wrestler an opportunity to make up for an iffy call that goes against him or her.
They have constantly tinkered with the rules over the years, and while they are imperfect, I agree the matches are pretty exciting and fairly action packed.
Yes, the US's biggest advantage, fitness, is somewhat neutralized, but it does come into play the farther a US wrestler advances in a tournament. I'm sure the rest of the world couldn't care less that we are a folkstyle country.
All of your observations are valid, though. I just think its an imperfect, but basically fair system


digninrk

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Re: Olympic trials
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2012, 07:24:37 PM »
Dingo,
I am not necessarily saying the best wrestler didn't win those particular series, but Freyer literally didnt do anything on the second match and he was gassed.  To me Simmons was the better wrestler, was very unlucky, and would do better in London because of his style. He would give unfamiliar wrestlers problems

Dingo Brigade

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Re: Olympic trials
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2012, 08:01:11 PM »
I agree that Simmons is certainly more dangerous and Hazewinkel had a far easier bracket to navigate, but even in folkstyle the more aggressive wrestler isn't always the victor. Simmons is a point scorer, but he's also a point giver to his opponents. I felt that Frayer was the best at the weight all day. Metcalf wasn't as sharp as he's been other events, and could've easily lost to Pami.
My biggest frustration is with the drawing of the balls, as pure chance gives one wrestler a huge leg up (no pun intended). I know why they do it and I don't have a better idea, but luck is a big factor in a lot of these matches.
I agree with your basic point that the system and rules aren't perfect, but I'm hopeful our three teams will have a nice showing this year. I will be attending my first Olympics and I'm stoked, to say the least

Y2CJ41

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Re: Olympic trials
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2012, 08:02:17 PM »
It is the American way to think the way we do things is the best and only way to do things...like our folkstyle wrestling.  Believe it or not sometimes the way we do things is not the best and if we would look at how others outside this country do things we would learn.  That goes for anything from athletics to manufacturing to farming.

I don't know how anyone else feels about this, but I just watched day two of the Olympic trials and can not undstand how the rules can be so terrible.  I am especially upset over the Metcalf and Simmons last match.  In both cases, the inferior wrestler won, which brings out a few questions I have.  Maybe some of you that are more familiar with freestyle can inform me or complain with me.
Being an inferior wrestler and winning two matches doesn't really add up.  Metcalf has deficiencies in freestyle and they are exposed every time he goes overseas and wrestles someone outside of the US.  As for Simmons, I believe he may have had a better shot at medaling, Hazewinkle is no slouch.  Haze and Simmons are two very equal wrestlers as shown by their close matches.

- can we even call freestyle wrestling the way it is today wrestling? It looks more like judo to me.
The way freestyle is scored has not changed, for as long as most of us can remember it has always been 1 point for control, 2 for exposure, 3 for feet to back, etc.  They way freestyle was wrestled and scored in 1980 was the same as it is today.

-why is fitness not stressed in freestyle? (I'm serious here) is it because the rest of the world knows how much folk style is stressed in the US and the FILA rules are made to counter our superior fitness?
What about superior technique?  Why should wrestlers with super fitness with lesser technique win over wrestlers with superior technique and lesser fitness?  If you are going to stress superior fitness then you are going to lessen the advantage of having superior technique.

-why is the passive wrestler rewarded? I particulary hate when two points are awarded when someone is in on a shot and they get flipped to their side 90 degrees for two points.
The passive wrestler is not rewarded.  The wrestler that has poor technique is punished easier in freestyle than folkstyle.  A wrestler that does not finish his shots properly or is in poor position when in on a shot can be scored on by the defensive wrestler.  This area emphasizes proper and superior technique from both wrestlers.

-what does a push out have to do with wrestling?
What does playing the edge and hopping out of bounds every time your opponent touches your leg have to do with wrestling?  I can't even begin to explain how frustrated as a coach and a competitor I got when a kid would constantly play the edge.  It is not fun to wrestle a kid like that and not fun to watch as a coach or fan of the sport.  

The push out helps keep wrestling action continuous and keep the action in the center of the mat.
-how can there be video review in wrestling?
When two wrestlers are evenly matches such as Frayer and Metcalf or Simmons and Haze, I would think having video replay would be something that should be used.  In those matches one move can make or break a period or match and having video review helps right a wrong.  Do they mess up sometimes?  Sure, but they seem to flub video review in the NFL also.

-winning a top line freestyle match is 50% luck, how can a draw be involved?
When you have great athletes battling it out the margin for error is very small.  The difference between 1st and 8th in the NCAAs is very small, it is one takedown here, some riding time there, etc.  The same goes for any sport when you get to the highest levels.  Look at the 100 meter dash, if  you have a poor start you are doomed and going to perform badly.  The margin for error is a fraction of a second, much the same in wrestling.

Maybe I am just partial to folk style and don't understand the nuances of freestyle, but the best wrestler does not always win unlike folk style.  I will say though, the matches were very exciting, probably more than folk style, but it was artificially created drama, not the best man wins.
Are you saying there are never fluke wins in folkstyle?  I can think of  matches determined by a flip of a coin in the second period.  Heck just last week at the Scholastic Duals, Bernard vs. Hemmelgarn was basically determined by who won the coin toss in the second period because that person got choice in the ultimate OT.  I can also think of many matches where the better wrestler has lost for various reasons.  
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maligned

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Re: Olympic trials
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2012, 02:16:24 AM »
I agree with the assessment that Simmons is "a point scorer" but also gives up a lot of points.  When he faces very athletic, technically sound international competition, he gets hammered by 4 or 5 points both periods.  Though he may potentially win more matches overall against similar level competition to himself and Hazewinkel, I honestly feel Hazewinkel may have a better shot to medal because he will have a better chance to keep matches close against the elite.  I love watching Simmons' matches, but I was honestly, for our medal hopes, pulling for someone else to get through because I think even replicating his run at the Worlds would have been a stretch.

1894life

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Re: Olympic trials
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2012, 12:00:16 PM »
I love the push out rule.   It makes you wrestle instead of backing up, aka stall, to end a match.  It awards the aggressor, which is what I try to teach my kids to be.  "Be the Hammer, not the Anvil"

lpd096

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Re: Olympic trials
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2012, 12:14:47 PM »
That's the one rule that I would LOVE to see come to folkstyle-------the push out. Award the same pts as in freestyle...1pt or give a warning for the 1st push out and every one after, 1pt. Just my opinion.

AJ

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Re: Olympic trials
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2012, 05:35:52 AM »
I hate the push out rule...   it does not create more offense but rather a lot of shoving on the edge....
Points in freestyle are way down.. and even the broadcaster said that the best strategy is to keep the score low...
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DCHawks149

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Re: Olympic trials
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2012, 06:40:57 AM »
If the push out rule became an offensive move in folkstyle the matches would be ruined for sure

Y2CJ41

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Re: Olympic trials
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2012, 06:45:02 AM »
If the push out rule became an offensive move in folkstyle the matches would be ruined for sure
Because it is extremely exciting to see kids play the edge and jump out of bounds every time their opponent touches their legs.
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TripleB

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Re: Olympic trials
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2012, 07:12:24 AM »
Elite leve matches have always been low scoring, push out rule hasn't changed, hampered, or affected that.
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AJ

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Re: Olympic trials
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2012, 07:27:14 AM »
Elite leve matches have always been low scoring, push out rule hasn't changed, hampered, or affected that.

but I think it has lowered the level of offensive attempts.  in my opinion it has slowed down matches and made them alot more defensive than offensive...  bu there are other factors working in that as well..

just my opinion...

and I did really enjoy the Howe/Burroughs match.. these two wrestlers opened up and just went at in.. a lot of offensive attempts and very exciting wrestling...  that style of wrestling will do what FILA and others want, more fan friendly and tv friendly wrestling
"If you want to be the best, you must... lose... your... mind."

Y2CJ41

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Re: Olympic trials
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2012, 07:32:33 AM »
but I think it has lowered the level of offensive attempts.  in my opinion it has slowed down matches and made them alot more defensive than offensive...  bu there are other factors working in that as well..

just my opinion...

and I did really enjoy the Howe/Burroughs match.. these two wrestlers opened up and just went at in.. a lot of offensive attempts and very exciting wrestling...  that style of wrestling will do what FILA and others want, more fan friendly and tv friendly wrestling
Scoring has been down in freestyle for years.  Do you remember the "you must score" 3 points or go to OT rules? 
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Smooth34

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Re: Olympic trials
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2012, 07:56:27 AM »
Scoring has been down in freestyle for years.  Do you remember the "you must score" 3 points or go to OT rules? 

Yes.

AJ

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Re: Olympic trials
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2012, 09:11:28 AM »
Scoring has been down in freestyle for years.  Do you remember the "you must score" 3 points or go to OT rules? 

yes... i remember...  i thought that rule forced more action than the current rules...

i think the scoring last rule also slows down the match.  score tied 1-1 but wrestler who scored last wins period? 
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jbburn12

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Re: Olympic trials
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2012, 09:36:28 AM »
All this talk on freestyle and not one mention of the most ridiculous facet of  freestyle  : the ball draw and "clinch". There has got to be a better way.Also the last point scored in a period being more important and giving a period win than the first poin scored. Why should my early takedown count for less than your late period takedown? I just don't get it.

Y2CJ41

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Re: Olympic trials
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2012, 10:04:36 AM »
All this talk on freestyle and not one mention of the most ridiculous facet of  freestyle  : the ball draw and "clinch". There has got to be a better way.
The clinch is a punishment for both wrestlers failing to score in 2 minutes.  It is in effect to force more action and let the wrestlers decide the match. 

Also the last point scored in a period being more important and giving a period win than the first poin scored. Why should my early takedown count for less than your late period takedown? I just don't get it.
Because FILA wants to emphasize wrestlers scoring often and by doing this it will tend to make the wrestler who scored first more active to keep from being scored upon.
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grecoref

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Re: Olympic trials
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2012, 10:22:07 AM »
No matter what the rules are, coaches and athletes will figure a way around them.

You really think the 3 point must system created more scoring?  Once a wrestler earned 3 points, he stopped attempting to score.

You don't like the ball draw? Score some points and there won't be one. The clinch is a PENALTY for not scoring!


You want points scored...then let's reward risk, make the wrestlers keep their heads up and out of the chest and penalize them if they don't. Bring back the passivity/stalling calls (yes I know that gives the referee more power). Go back to 2-3minute periods. The total score of the match wins the match. No if you lose the 1st period lets say 5-0, I can still win 1-0 and 1-0 and win the match...that's CRAZY!

The line bracketing system has also reduced the number of points being scored....there is no incentive to win by a large margin or by fall if I advance no matter what. A win is a win.

Many of you have seen numerous changes. What it really comes down to is this....for the rules to work and points to be scored, the rules must REWARD the wrestler taking the risk and PENALIZE the wrestler who does not. The referees must be given the right to ENFORCE the rules. The coaches and athletes must have the INTEGRITY not to cirumvent the intent of the rules for their benefit.

As we sit here and waste time complaining about the rules and saying our kids are better off wrestling folkstyle, the Russians and the Georgians and the Iranians and the kind folks in Azerbaijan are training to win GOLD MEDALS.

And that my friends fries my behind like nothing else.






tspray1

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Re: Olympic trials
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2012, 10:33:48 AM »
I think to go inline with your thoughts about rewarding the risk Greco.  Takedowns should be worth 2 not 1 and if you take a shot and score the takedown but get exposed while earning your takedown currently you will be trailing 2-1.  That would be a change I would love to see getting 2 for the takdown and giving up 1 for being exposed on a shot. 

To me the way it is set up offensive is not being rewarded the way defensive is.