IHSAA Class Basketball Discussions- What a Joke

[currentwrestler]

Y2 has had some controversial arguments in the past, but I cannot argue with his logic here.  How exactly has the IHSWCA gone about asking for a classed tournament and wrestle-backs?  I am asking because I honestly don't know.

If it has been through proposing ideas to the IHSAA, that can be construed by the IHSAA as one of two ways:
1. It can be viewed as proactive by the IHSWCA's part, or
2. It can be viewed as disrespectful and seem like the IHSWCA is sort of going out of the way to make themselves heard.

If it has been through asking what the IHSAA wants to see happen to make sure we can have a classed team state and wrestle-backs, I believe that would work better.  If this is the way it was done, than my argument is invalid; but again I have no background knowledge on how it was gone about discussing the implementation of a classed team state and wrestle-backs.

What if we asked what the IHSAA would like to see from us to have a classed team state and wrestle-backs in five years?  Why don't we put together a plan, or contract with the IHSAA.  If we follow all the guidelines AND THE INTENTIONS of the guidelines without being conniving and trying to find loopholes, how can the IHSAA say no after the date decided by the contract?

This is something that I think makes sense.  Thoughts?

[awood1]

And that will help the cause how?  How has this attitude helped wrestling in the past? 

Maybe the IHSAA treats wrestling like it does because of the way the coaches act, such as defaulting sectional final matches midway through after a coach gets a call on his cell phone.  Maybe things like constantly finding "loopholes" in the rules to go to off season events.  Maybe things like coaches throwing in their JV team at team regional.... the list goes on as to some possibilities to why the IHSAA treats wrestling the way they do.  It is NOT a battered wife syndrome, plain and simple the coaches need to get their acts together.

It most certainly IS like the battered wife syndrome!  Would coaches be so inclined to default IF they had wrestle backs?  Would they be forced to find loopholes if the idiotic travel rules were not in place?  Is there a better solution than having Varsity individuals at risk during the concurrent dual tnmt?

ANY relationship is based on compromise.  When one side ignores the other, it becomes and adversarial relationship.  In that case, the one that hits the hardest appears to "win".  The IHSAA has ALWAYS felt comfortable as an adversary to wrestling and shows no desire to have any other form of relationship.  Again, you are making excuses for their loooong history of ignoring anything that wrestling has ever done to establish a healthy, working relationship of compromise that would actually promote the sport and offer opportunities for kids.  The IHSAA's only advancements have been $ driven and ignored the wishes of the coaches and athletes.

[Y2CJ41]

Making excuses?  Seriously?  Why should the IHSAA treat us better if the coaches are a bunch of renegades that aren't going to listen?  Why are other sports, even minor sports like soccer and track treated better? 

[HardCharger]

Making excuses?  Seriously?  Why should the IHSAA treat us better if the coaches are a bunch of renegades that aren't going to listen?  Why are other sports, even minor sports like soccer and track treated better? 

I would rather be associated with passionate coaches or as you put it "renegades" that are not willing  to stand by idle waiting  to stroke the IHSAA on a 5yr plan. Its the IHSAA not willing to be fair or listen..

[Y2CJ41]

I would rather be associated with passionate coaches or as you put it "renegades" that are not willing  to stand by idle waiting  to stroke the IHSAA on a 5yr plan. Its the IHSAA not willing to be fair or listen..

Then expect to get the same treatment as we are currently getting.  Obviously the plan of attack the IHSWCA has been using isn't doing any good or we wouldn't be in this situation.

[MCKAJC]

Putting the past behind sounds good and is a positive concept. It would seem that Y2 is suggesting we put the past behind and attempt to start a new relationship of sorts with IHSAA. Given the status of the relationship now, I'm sure nothing will change and no bargaining will take place. IMO taking the renegade approach hasn't been very successful up to now. Given the attitude now, it would seem that the IHSAA see's the wrestling community as thugs that do what they choose regardless of rules, so why should they bargain? JMO, trying to put myself in their shoes.

[bharmon01]

I don't really think the IHSAA looks at the IHSWCA as a bunch of renegades.
They have been portrayed  as such on this web site. I had many meetings with Blake Ress and Bobby Cox and I don't think they ever considered us renegades.  They listened to our arguments and sometimes even agreed with us.  They then had to look at what our proposals, if granted, would affect the other individual sports. They always class wrestling as a individual sport, even when we had team state. Team state was passed before Blake Ress became commissioner. Blake was old scholl from Martinsville and opposed class anything. He told us the IHSAA made a bad decision in making basketball 4 classes from the start and all team sports after had to meet the requirements for class like stated earlier in these post.
He even used the argument (when we proposed class for wrestling) that a kid from a small school won state in the 100 and got a scholarship that it wouldn't have happened if track were classed. You old guys remember this.
It has nothing to do with bargaining, it comes down to how will this affect the rest of the individual sports.
The decisions are money driven, venue availability driven and official availability driven.
Show them how it can be economically possible, venue possible and official possible and you might have a chance, but it has to work for all individual sports - not just wrestling.
The difference is we (IHSWCA) has continued to propose class and wrestle backs and lost.
Does that make us (IHSWCA) renagades, I don't think so.
They told us (IHSWCA) to propose what we are passionate about and we did that.
They told us (IHSWCA) to show support by our coaches and w did with surveys at the sectional getting 100% response.
It still didn't matter because if the IHSAA gave wrestling wrestle backs or class then what would the other individual sports want?
Like I have stated before, I have been on many committees as well as vice president and president for our association in dealing with the IHSAA. They listen to what we have to say and then do what they believe is best for all individual sports, not just wrestling. In fact at one meeting about the new big sectionals they didn't even listen to our input for sectional sites and alinement.
The difference between wrestling coaches and other sports is we continue to fight for what we want even if it means being voted down. And the thing is the IHSAA told us to propose what we were passionate about. Other sports don't do that.
My fear is we have bought into the idea "just come in and talk to them" and take what they give us.
We got that this year.
Keep proposing even if we are doomed to failure. That doesn't make us renegades, just passionate about what we want for our student athletes.
If we don't keep proposing wrestle backs and class then what do we propose?
Give us some ideas of how to get what we want without proposing it?
If proposing wrestle backs and class makes us renegades, the I guess we are renegades.
I still don't think hey see us as renegades, they just don't know how to give wrestling wrestle backs and class without the other individual sports wanting the same thing.
We want want wrestle backs and class so what is the answer?
Someone please tell us (IHSWCA) how to get it done, but don't call us renegades for fighting for what we want.
I can still call up Bobby cox  and talk to him and I don't think he thinks I'm a renegade.
He listens to what I have to say, tells me what I want to hear and then does what he thinks is best for the IHSAA.
I don't have an answer to what we want and how to get it - if I did we already would have wrestle backs, a team Individual champion and class team state.
Someone tell us how to get it done!

[KarlHungus]

No one has said that the IHSWCA as an organization is renegade.  The wrestling coaches as a whole are looked on as renegades.

I have consistently called for reorganization of the IHSWCA with more ELECTED representation, a code of ethics, ethics committee, etc.  I have even outlined these and presented them to a former president of the IHSWCA. 

Understand Bob that no one is calling the IHSWCA a group of renegades but if you think that wrestling coaches as a whole have a sterling reputation among state leaders you head is buried in the sand.  All I have said is that the IHSWCA needs to be able to take a stand and have some control over those coaches that continually bend the rules. 

[indyt]

Exactly Karl. In fact some are not bending the rules they are flat out breaking the rules.  I have been told that the IHSAA was fielding lots of phone calls late in the season about certain kids from certain programs practicing with other programs on Sundays. These kinds of  rules infractions looks bad for Indiana High School coaches in the eyes of the IHSAA.

[bharmon01]

How does the IHSWCA have any power over controlling Indiana wrestling coaches? How can they have any power over controlling any wrestling coach? Thats the responsibility of the IHSAA, our governing body.
I know the are bad apples out there - if you know and have proof of teams practicing on Sunday - report them to the IHSAA.
The IHSWCA brought up IHSAA concerns about the Team Tournament to our coaches at every fall and spring clinic I have attended. Some listened, some didn't. Some have never attended a fall or spring clinic. Some care, some don't.
The IHSWCA has elections every year, how many more elected positions do we need?
How many presidents, vice presidents, secretaries and treasurers do we need?
Do we need elected sectional, regional and semi-state reps?
What power does or can the IHSWCA have over coaches? They are hired by the Principals and school board.
There is a clinic coming up on April 20th - if you have any answers be there and give your input.
I don't have the answers - if I did we would have wrestle backs in the individual tournament which included a state individual team champion and a team dual meet state champion.
I'm just here stirring the pot, its just my opinion on Indiana wrestling

[Y2CJ41]

[Y2CJ41]

Sherlock Tonte

[KarlHungus]

How does the IHSWCA have any power over controlling Indiana wrestling coaches? How can they have any power over controlling any wrestling coach? Thats the responsibility of the IHSAA, our governing body.

I feel you are wrong.  It is the role of Coaches Associations to come up with a code of ethics.  In the case of football in my region, retired Jimtown coach Bill Sharpe is the region's ethics advisor.  If you are bending/breaking rules he has no problem with letting that coach know.  If the problem persists, he has no problem telling the AD.  I am guessing the IHSAA would appreciate things being taken care of at that level.

A more specific example:  A school was suspected of applying some recruiting pressure on a wrestler in our program as an 8th grader.  It was reported to our AD who called coach Sharpe.  Coach Sharpe called the alledged recruiting school's AD.  The AD was horrified that it was happening and quickly put a stop to it.  

The IHSWCA needs a mechanism like this to take care of small issues like bringing kids in on Sundays to check wt or other issues.

The IHSWCA brought up IHSAA concerns about the Team Tournament to our coaches at every fall and spring clinic I have attended. Some listened, some didn't. Some have never attended a fall or spring clinic. Some care, some don't.

Bringing it up and doing something about it are two different things.

The IHSWCA has elections every year, how many more elected positions do we need?

Probably don't need many at the state level

How many presidents, vice presidents, secretaries and treasurers do we need?

probably not that many more.  Maybe a 2nd vice president

Do we need elected sectional, regional and semi-state reps?

We need something to drive up membership numbers.  Nothing else has worked and the IHSWCA hovers between 30 and 50 percent of the state's coaches.  If I am with the IHSAA, I am not sure sure how seriously I would take an organization that can't muster over 50% of the coaches into the organization

What power does or can the IHSWCA have over coaches? They are hired by the Principals and school board.

Bob, if you are hypothetically cheating or bending rules and Mike Goebel calles up you AD/Principal and tell him/her that the word on the street is Bob Harmon and the Castle wrestling program are a bunch of cheaters, do you think that might change some behavior.

In my region if a respected figure like Mark Miller or Al Smith were to call up my AD and say I was cheating, I would be embarrassed beyond belief.

Ethical issues are better handled by the coaches themselves in my opinion.

There is a clinic coming up on April 20th - if you have any answers be there and give your input.

I would love to but I have 40+ plus athletes I will be coaching at track practice that day and huge track invite to coach at on Saturday.  

I'm just here stirring the pot, its just my opinion on Indiana wrestling

You seem to be advocating the status quo...That is not really stirring any pot.  It has been so long that the pot has been stirred that I don't know if things will ever change.

[KarlHungus]

Exactly Karl. In fact some are not bending the rules they are flat out breaking the rules.  I have been told that the IHSAA was fielding lots of phone calls late in the season about certain kids from certain programs practicing with other programs on Sundays. These kinds of  rules infractions looks bad for Indiana High School coaches in the eyes of the IHSAA.

If true it sounds like the IHSAA should reprimand the offending parties.  I looked through the minutes and saw no such reprimands.  I can only assume that the claims are baseless then.

[XCard]

Is it possible to get some wrestling friendly members into the IHSAA itself?  How is it structured? Is it even possible?

[buscowrestling]

http://gridirondigest.net/index.php?/topic/43482-proposal-overhaul-tabled/

Looks like working with the IHSAA is a struggle for the IFCA as well.

[AJ]

Does the conversation about the IHSWCA needing changes stem from the fact that we are not classed and that we lost team state?  Are those the main problems?  

[KarlHungus]

Does the conversation about the IHSWCA needing changes stem from the fact that we are not classed and that we lost team state?  Are those the main problems? 

No