classed team state

[maligned]

Maybe it is the fact that now when the IHSWCA goes into a meeting with the IHSAA and asks for them to sponsor a dual team state they will simply say "don't you already have one?"  So that means it will be quite a task to ever get an IHSAA sponsored event again. 

The other issue I have is that as coaches we are "eating our own" in order to put on this event.  We are taking away from already established events in order to put this on.  Luckily there are only a few events that day this year, but in the future we may not be as lucky.  If we have to have it around the same time as the Al Smith/Connersville/North Montgomery we are really going to hinder those events in not only attendance of teams, but also in money generated from the fans. 

Another thing that I am not a big fan of is how the better teams in the state get to get extra matches against other top teams for "free" during the regular season.   It does not help the middle of the pack or lower tier teams and actually helps separate the top teams from everyone else even more.

I personally feel that the IHSWCA's energy should be spent on making the organization stronger by increased membership and rebuilding the bridge with the IHSAA.

All of these points make total sense to me and will require some navigation if we're going to try to keep a team event going while still working toward it being recognized by the IHSAA again down the road.   As you know, in Ohio they used a system similar to our new model for some years until it was officially adopted by their state athletic association.  I feel like if we leave the event we're trying very open to change and evolution, we may even be able to develop something that the IHSAA would adopt. I realize that anything like that will require many of the things you've voiced dozens of times to happen first.  But it doesn't seem like any more of a pipe dream for us to build up an event that the IHSAA might get on board with than it does to work toward solidarity without an event an unforeseeable number of years before presenting something that may or may not come together down the road.   For me, it's worth doing something rather than nothing with an event right away.  Then, if it's a failure, it's a failure and we start from scratch.  We'll still be at the same place either way.   It feels worth taking a stab at it and seeing if we can develop something that either 1) does eventually get recognized by the IHSAA or 2) at the very least, becomes a prestigious enough event that everyone looks at it as the true barometer of the best teams from each class in the state.

[AJ]

How does the IHSWCA help the coaches, schools, and wrestlers that:

1. Dont have a kid make the Scholastic Duals Team
2. Dont have a kid on the IN/IL dual roster
3. Don't have a kid eligible for Academic All-State


All of those reasons to join seem to exist to punish a wrestler more so than promote an organization.

I am against classed wrestling at both levels:individual and state.  I do not like the idea of having the IHSWCA classed, but I have chosen to support it because I think building something new is better than complaining about something torn down.  The IHSAA will want the dual series back if and when they see it making a profit.  No system is perfect and this one does have flaws, but it is a start.  Having a Team Dual Champion and an Individual Tournament Champion just gives us more reason to celebrate wrestling.

[beachbum21]

I wish people would stop calling it "state"', "finals" or "championship".  It is nothing more than a mid season invitational with 3 pools, called pool"A"' pool "2A" and pool "3A".  Everyone knows there cannot be a team called "state champions" midway through a season.  Wrestling, more than any other sport is about practicing, training, drilling, etc... To prepare to peak at the right time, at the end of the season.  It is going to hurt some of the best mid season tournaments in the state, such as the Al Smith, the Bellmont super dual and other tournaments.  This tournament will NOT determine a state champ.  For those of you who want to grow our sport this is nothing but a slap in the IHSAA's face and we wonder why wrestling can't get anywhere with the Brass?  I for one do not see how this is good for our sport.  Just my opinion and nothing against anyone who is for it.

[indyt]

Having this dual tournament is not a reason as to why better teams will separate themselves from middle or lower level teams just like Alex wrestling in the midlands did not separate him from his middle of the road individual competition. That groundwork was laid way before then. These teams and individuals separate themselves in the off season.

[maligned]

I wish people would stop calling it "state"', "finals" or "championship".  It is nothing more than a mid season invitational with 3 pools, called pool"A"' pool "2A" and pool "3A".  Everyone knows there cannot be a team called "state champions" midway through a season.  Wrestling, more than any other sport is about practicing, training, drilling, etc... To prepare to peak at the right time, at the end of the season.  It is going to hurt some of the best mid season tournaments in the state, such as the Al Smith, the Bellmont super dual and other tournaments.  This tournament will NOT determine a state champ.  For those of you who want to grow our sport this is nothing but a slap in the IHSAA's face and we wonder why wrestling can't get anywhere with the Brass?  I for one do not see how this is good for our sport.  Just my opinion and nothing against anyone who is for it.

I agree that calling it the IHSWCA TEAM State Championship would be a mistake for our working relationship with the IHSAA. 

But I don't see how calling it the IHSWCA DUALS State Championship is a slap in their face when they said we could have a scheduling exemption to create this sort of event.  College wrestling has its National Duals Championship in the mid-season; again, I'm not sure what problem there would be if we call it a Duals State Championship when every team in the state had a chance to qualify and it's a duals event.

[beachbum21]

I agree that calling it the IHSWCA TEAM State Championship would be a mistake for our working relationship with the IHSAA. 

But I don't see how calling it the IHSWCA DUALS State Championship is a slap in their face when they said we could have a scheduling exemption to create this sort of event.  College wrestling has its National Duals Championship in the mid-season; again, I'm not sure what problem there would be if we call it a Duals State Championship when every team in the state had a chance to qualify and it's a duals event.

Just for discussion, how has the College National Duals made college wrestling better?  This is a mid season obscure tournament, that many of the top programs ignore and don't take serious because of the "mid season" scheduling.  It is not well followed or well attended.  Like I said many wrestlers and teams opt to get ready for the end of the season.  I think it is silly to call the winners of this tournament "state champs".  They will no doubt be the winners of a very good invitational, but that is it....at least in my mind. Haha.

[AJ]

Just for discussion, how has the College National Duals made college wrestling better?  This is a mid season obscure tournament, that many of the top programs ignore and don't take serious because of the "mid season" scheduling.  It is not well followed or well attended.  Like I said many wrestlers and teams opt to get ready for the end of the season.  I think it is silly to call the winners of this tournament "state champs".  They will no doubt be the winners of a very good invitational, but that is it....at least in my mind. Haha.

Cant you say the same for our current IHSAA Team series?  It is poorly attended.  Not cared about by many.  Some coaches thoughtit was a midweek event so they didnt send their top squads when they qualified for various parts of the series.  And many wrestlers and coaches opt to prepare for the individual finals.

Lets give this system a chance.    Who knows, maybe it will grow into everything that we want and everything that many people doubt.

[maligned]

I think it is silly to call the winners of this tournament "state champs".  They will no doubt be the winners of a very good invitational, but that is it....at least in my mind. Haha.

But calling them "State Duals Champs" would not be out of line, since that's what they'd be.

[buscowrestling]

How does the IHSWCA help the coaches, schools, and wrestlers that:

1. Dont have a kid make the Scholastic Duals Team
2. Dont have a kid on the IN/IL dual roster
3. Don't have a kid eligible for Academic All-State


All of those reasons to join seem to exist to punish a wrestler more so than promote an organization.

I am against classed wrestling at both levels:individual and state.  I do not like the idea of having the IHSWCA classed, but I have chosen to support it because I think building something new is better than complaining about something torn down.  The IHSAA will want the dual series back if and when they see it making a profit.  No system is perfect and this one does have flaws, but it is a start.  Having a Team Dual Champion and an Individual Tournament Champion just gives us more reason to celebrate wrestling.

Among other things the IHSWCA is instituting a new coach mentoring program; they also schedule and host the fall and spring coaches’ clinic, run the hall of fame, recognize coaching milestones, and provide a voice for the coaches to the IHSAA.  I agree that the coaches association is not perfect, but for $25 dollars it seems to me that you really receive a lot of positive events and programs.  Just curious what other things would you like to see the coaches association do?  I have always found the coaches association to be very open and willing to listen to new ideas.  They may not do al of them right away, but they are willing to listen to and consider new things, plus I am just interested in hearing what others expect out of the association.

[buscowrestling]

Just for discussion, how has the College National Duals made college wrestling better?  This is a mid season obscure tournament, that many of the top programs ignore and don't take serious because of the "mid season" scheduling.  It is not well followed or well attended.  Like I said many wrestlers and teams opt to get ready for the end of the season.  I think it is silly to call the winners of this tournament "state champs".  They will no doubt be the winners of a very good invitational, but that is it....at least in my mind. Haha.

Just curious as to why you feel that a coaches association sanctioned event in Ohio had been able to work, and be considered champions, but in Indiana it will not work?
Also wouldnt you say that in the last 15-20 years wrestling in Indiana has gotten better?  Dont you think that having a duals championship has had at least something to do with this improvement.

[Smooth34]

But calling them "State Duals Champs" would not be out of line, since that's what they'd be.

More like "IHSWCA Super Dual Champs"

[dstruck]

What is the IHSWCA up to?

For a volunteer job, I know my plate is getting pretty full. 

Scholastic Duals  (weekend away from family)
IN/IL duals (weekend away from family)
Academic Sr. AllState and man table at state tourney
Junior All-State – Academic and man table at state tourney
Middle School State Finals (Sunday away from the family)
Coach of the Year for each regional voting
Coach of the year for the state voting
Hall of fame selection committee (sunday away from the family)
Host hall of fame banquet (sunday away from the family)
Conduct the yearly survey at sectionals
Hosting a Fall clinic (that I have to miss school for)
Hosting a spring clinic (that I have to miss school for)
Meet once a month with any association member that wants to come (sunday away from family)
Meet once a month with the officers to make sure we are getting our jobs done (evening away from family)
 the UNITE magazine
Coaching Milestones
meetings with the IHSAA that are during the school day (up to 7 times a year that we miss school)
---and now the IHSWCA Team State tourney - or whatever you choose to refer to it as. (now another day away from family)

Get involved and we can do even more, it is a volunteer job with no perks.....just knowing your helping kids.


Many of the officers or regional reps also sit on ISWA, and HYWAY boards so their hands are full.  We can do more when we get others on board.
And we all coach our own teams too and have all those commitments

get involved - dstruck@gcs.k12.in.us

[tskin]

Great post Danny,

I had things I didn't understand or agree with so that is why I have made a effort this year to become a more active member of our assotiation and it is a lot of extra work and time but I am willing to put forth the time to help improve our sport or our assotiation in anyway.

[bjax]

What is the IHSWCA up to?

For a volunteer job, I know my plate is getting pretty full. 

Scholastic Duals  (weekend away from family)
IN/IL duals (weekend away from family)
Academic Sr. AllState and man table at state tourney
Junior All-State – Academic and man table at state tourney
Middle School State Finals (Sunday away from the family)
Coach of the Year for each regional voting
Coach of the year for the state voting
Hall of fame selection committee (sunday away from the family)
Host hall of fame banquet (sunday away from the family)
Conduct the yearly survey at sectionals
Hosting a Fall clinic (that I have to miss school for)
Hosting a spring clinic (that I have to miss school for)
Meet once a month with any association member that wants to come (sunday away from family)
Meet once a month with the officers to make sure we are getting our jobs done (evening away from family)
 the UNITE magazine
Coaching Milestones
meetings with the IHSAA that are during the school day (up to 7 times a year that we miss school)
---and now the IHSWCA Team State tourney - or whatever you choose to refer to it as. (now another day away from family)

Get involved and we can do even more, it is a volunteer job with no perks.....just knowing your helping kids.


Many of the officers or regional reps also sit on ISWA, and HYWAY boards so their hands are full.  We can do more when we get others on board.
And we all coach our own teams too and have all those commitments

get involved - dstruck@gcs.k12.in.us

Thank you for doing all this for Indiana high school wrestling, especially the kids.

[bharmon01]

When asked "Why join the IHSWCA?"
For no other reason than I'm a Indiana High School Wrestling coach
It's not about whats in it for me or my program, but what is best for Indiana wrestling
Join and make your voice known - I know I have and some times it worked out and others it didn't
You may not like everything, but the Association is for the coaches
It can only fight for what the majority of membership wants and that is all it has ever done
The IHSWCA can not control what the IHSAA Executive Board does
All we can do is propose what our membership wants and let the chips fall where they may
The IHSAA makes the final decision
The IHSWCA has proposed class wrestling and wrestle backs in the past - we have lost 16-0 every time
Thats the facts
You may not like it and want to blame the IHSWCA, but thats the facts - we are at the mercy of the IHSAA
I hope the new young leadership can get what the majority of our membership wants but I think it will still depend on what the IHSAA thinks is best for all Individual sports, not just wrestling
Thats what a lot of people miss, its not just wrestling, but all Individual sports when they make a decision
Hope for he best, prepare for the worst and fight like hell to win - thats my motto

[nnhs]

bharmon01,

The following statement you put out is so not true.

It can only fight for what the majority of membership wants and that is all it has ever done

The IHSWCA when schools wanted classed never got put forward.  The comment I always got from Miller was not enough votes have come in, or the % for classed teams state is only 75% thats not enought to move it forward.  The IHSWCA is not about what the mjority want its about what they want

[tskin]

bharmon01,

The following statement you put out is so not true.

It can only fight for what the majority of membership wants and that is all it has ever done

The IHSWCA when schools wanted classed never got put forward.  The comment I always got from Miller was not enough votes have come in, or the % for classed teams state is only 75% thats not enought to move it forward.  The IHSWCA is not about what the mjority want its about what they want

I ran the survey and the link was sent out to every school and coach.  If a school or coach choose not to answer a survey then that is their choice.  But %75 was a large turnout for that survey that discussed classed wrestling and a large majority that completed the survey wanted classed team state.  I know people in the IHSWCA made calls to remind them to fill out the survey and we waited several weeks past our original due date to collect data.  Like I stated in another post I was once part of the silent majority and wanted to get my voice heard and become a active member in the IHSWCA and it was as easy as volunteering and attending meetings.  I am glad I have and look forward to continuing in helping and voice our coaches concernes and to do what our membership thinks is best for Indiana Wrestling.

[bharmon01]

nnhs - I guess you are calling me a liar, not sure, but I don't like being called a liar.
tskin- not sure from your post, but after highlighting my statement , I guess you are calling me a liar also.

All I can tell you is during my time as vice president and president, we had surveys done at the sectional seeding meetings to find out what our coaches wanted (not membership, because not all were members) all head coaches at the sectional seeding meeting. We also discussed the concerns at the fall and spring business meetings - which was for the most part only the same coaches as always.

During my time attending the fall clinic from 1984 when I came back to Indiana to present( I was in Texas from 1981-84) the IHSWCA always proposed what the coaches wanted. The IHSWCA has proposed class in the individual tournament and team tournament. The IHSWCA has been told over the years by the IHSAA not to propose class or class in the team tournament. The IHSWCA continued to propose what the coaches wanted knowing it would be voted down by the IHSAA Executive Board( because that was the consensus of the coaches at the fall and spring clinics and surveys at the sectional seeding meetings).

The IHSAA said "why don't you wrestling coaches just come in and discuss your concerns and not propose anything like the football coaches do"
I guess we did just go in and talk this last proposal year and guess what happened - end team state.
I guess it didn't matter, because if team state was not class most coaches didn't care this time they threatened ending team state. There was not much fight against ending team state from our coaches.
Blake and Bobby used how many coaches had contacted them and said they were against team state against the IHSWCA at he Executive Board meetings. How many it really was is not known, but it worked when talking to the Executive Board members.

In the past when we were confronted with issues like going to big sectionals with no wrestlebacks and ending team state we had emergency meetings and headed it off.
I wish all you guys with all the answers had a chance to deal with the IHSAA. I was very out spoken for years at fall and spring clinics. When I finally got the chance to sit on committees with the IHSAA, I was shocked by their responses.
I will never forget talking to Rex after a meeting and him saying to me - now you know.
At the same time I now understand their point, They can not (or will not) look at wrestling by itself, but put it with all individual sports. I don't agree with them but I understand if they give wrestling class, then the other individual sports will want class also. There were many times our assistant commissioner over wrestling said they liked the idea and then coming back with - what venues will hold this event, time (travel), how will we get officials(we already don't have enough for the tournament now). They have good arguments. How do you include all IHSAA schools in a individual and team tournament? Venues, officials?

It doesn"t matter what an particular sport wants - it matters how can all individual sports do it? The IHSAA is not dealing with wrestling, but all individual sports.
If the IHSAA wants wrestle backs in wrestling and it is economically, venue and official possible, then it will happen. If the IHSAA wants class wrestling individual or team(not a select few, but all IHSAA member schools) and it is venue, official and economically possible it will happen. It doesn't matter if 75%, 85%, 95% or 100% of coaches want it.

There are a lot of good ideas out there and some coaches with the best interest of Indiana High School wrestling out there.  I hope they continue to fight for what is best for Indian High School wrestling and not what is best for my program.
You have to give the IHSAA a concrete plan of how it can be done for all IHSAA member schools. Come up with it, propose it and keep proposing until it happens win or lose.

I think the IHSAA may look favorable on some type of wrestle back in the individual tournament to better determine a true state champion now that team state is done. Just propose it so it looks like their idea. They like that.
I think team state is done for now. I hope we don't give that fight up. Find a way for it to work that will make all coaches support it. The only problem is until the IHSAA wants tindividual sports to be class, I don't think that won't happen. It seems to me the only way all wrestling coaches will support a team state is it is classed. I think that is a long way off by the IHSAA's thinking.

These are the facts like them or not - but don't call me a liar. I told you all I know from my experiences. Now it's up to you young guys to do something about it.I've fought my battles, now you young guys step up and fight the fight.

[Tom Miller]

nnhs - why don't you talk to your boys at the Ihsaa and see what it's like. Or, as Bob said, make a proposal at the coaches fall clinic. You do attend the clinics and voice your thoughts - RIGHT. It sounds like you got all the answers. Miller, that's Tom Miller. At least I'm not afraid to say who I am.

[GOOSEY-LOOSY]

if u ask me I'm very angry about this I'm from a very good wrestling school and we look to win state but coming in as a freshmen varsity i will not experience this i will not come together as a team as much and wil think about personal goals instead of helping a team so bottom line the coaches that made this happen have taken away the chance for my team perry meridian to repeat as team state champs, so know its gonna be very sad when we win individual state swell and the scary cat teams that want individual will still never win a state championship

[chambers]

if u ask me I'm very angry about this I'm from a very good wrestling school and we look to win state but coming in as a freshmen varsity i will not experience this i will not come together as a team as much and wil think about personal goals instead of helping a team so bottom line the coaches that made this happen have taken away the chance for my team perry meridian to repeat as team state champs, so know its gonna be very sad when we win individual state swell and the scary cat teams that want individual will still never win a state championship

You seem to not understand that the team state championship was not taken away by the wrestling coaches. It was taken away by the IHSAA. Nobody here wanted it to go away.

[Y2CJ41]

You seem to not understand that the team state championship was not taken away by the wrestling coaches. It was taken away by the IHSAA. Nobody here wanted it to go away.

The coaches caused this to happen by not sending their varsity squads to regional and semi-state.

[infowrestling]

What is the IHSWCA up to?

For a volunteer job, I know my plate is getting pretty full. 

Scholastic Duals  (weekend away from family)
IN/IL duals (weekend away from family)
Academic Sr. AllState and man table at state tourney
Junior All-State – Academic and man table at state tourney
Middle School State Finals (Sunday away from the family)
Coach of the Year for each regional voting
Coach of the year for the state voting
Hall of fame selection committee (sunday away from the family)
Host hall of fame banquet (sunday away from the family)
Conduct the yearly survey at sectionals
Hosting a Fall clinic (that I have to miss school for)
Hosting a spring clinic (that I have to miss school for)
Meet once a month with any association member that wants to come (sunday away from family)
Meet once a month with the officers to make sure we are getting our jobs done (evening away from family)
 the UNITE magazine
Coaching Milestones
meetings with the IHSAA that are during the school day (up to 7 times a year that we miss school)
---and now the IHSWCA Team State tourney - or whatever you choose to refer to it as. (now another day away from family)

Get involved and we can do even more, it is a volunteer job with no perks.....just knowing your helping kids.


Many of the officers or regional reps also sit on ISWA, and HYWAY boards so their hands are full.  We can do more when we get others on board.
And we all coach our own teams too and have all those commitments

get involved - dstruck@gcs.k12.in.us

       I would just like to say Thank You to Coach Struck and the many others that work for our association.  The words that you have in parenthesis above are the exact reason why I cannot attend nearly as many of these things as I would like to.  The high school wrestling season is a very long and demanding season, add to that the off-season schedule (which for me starts 1-2 weeks after the regular season) and it amounts to a lot of time away from your family.  To put as much time into this sport as you guys do, I assume you have very understanding wives.  Thanks Again!   

[Y2CJ41]

With all those duties for the three elected officials, I think it would be beneficial to have more elected or appointed positions within the IHSWCA.  There could easily be five more positions added that would help ease the stress on the three people that are elected now.

Positions could be something like:
All-Star Organizer- Someone that organizes the scholastic duals and IN vs IL meet
Membership Chairman- Someone that only handles new and renewed memberships
Academic All-State Chairman- Someone that handles all the Academic All-State information
Ethics Chairman- Someone that has a direct line to Bobby Cox or Robert Faulkins on ethical issues within the sport
Communications Director- Someone that works on the UNITE magazine and other communication items
Clinic Chairman- Someone that organizes and schedules the clinics

[tskin]

Actually we have several committees set up to that fall into those categories and the assotiation asked for volunteers for several months it just so happen the elected officials and a handfull of others were the only ones to step up to the plate to volunteer....

I am on three commitees for our coaches association.

here are the committes that the IHSWCA has set up

Membership
IHSWCA Hall of Fame Banquet
Fall and Spring Clinic Planning
Scholastic Duals
Marketing and Promotions
Academic All-State
Regional Coaches of the Year
IHSWCA Middle School State
In/IL All Star Duals
Junior Academic All-State
Coaches Mentoring Program
IHSWCA Classed Team State Duals Selection

So many oppurtunities out there as long as you are willing to donate your time.