classed team state

[Bash513]

I don't disagree with what you are saying.  If we win sectional, we will get a police and fire escort to the school.  We will get a lot of recognition from administration, the community, the students and the media.  Will we get all that for winning an IHSWCA "state title?"  

I think that depends on how well YOU sell it to your school administration and community...

[BOG190]

I think that depends on how well YOU sell it to your school administration and community...

Totally agree, I know several schools that will get the red carpet treatment if they win it.  It's about how it's perceived.

[AJ]

The difference is sanctioned versus unsanctioned sports. I have never seen an IHSWCA coaches trophy banner in a school.

I think Jeffersonville has 2 of them in their gym....  I remember seeing IHSWCA on them....

[nnhs]

Y2CJ41,

If you ever go to Lowell you will see a big team picture of them winning the state in 2000 given by the IHWCA.  The school also has the trophy put up, not to mention the team championship rings the team got, which the AD and Principal got too

Many school administration around Indiana will recognize the IHSWCA title as a true state title.

[Y2CJ41]

I have never been to God's country aka Lowell, Indiana, thanks for the info.  When I have been to Mishawaka I have seen their coaches trophy prominently displayed in a closet off the wrestling room.  I have also seen one at Lawrence North that looked like it was being used as a coat and tshirt rack.

[maligned]

I agree that it's all about perception.  It's logical that it will take some time for that perception to evolve.  It may seem ridiculous to say it, but Fargo, NCAA, and Olympic winners all have their trophies or medals very prominently displayed in school or individual trophy cases--and none of them are sponsored by the IHSAA.  I'm not trying to be glib, I'm only making the point that a governing body is just a governing body.  The people decide how much glory the event is worth.

[buscowrestling]

I have never been to God's country aka Lowell, Indiana, thanks for the info.  When I have been to Mishawaka I have seen their coaches trophy prominently displayed in a closet off the wrestling room.  I have also seen one at Lawrence North that looked like it was being used as a coat and tshirt rack.

Is it possible that the coach’s trophy was treated in that fashion because it was given out for winning a novelty of a scoring system, not because it was an IHSWCA Trophy?  Personally I would rather win the IHSWCA Dual Title already than the IHSAA state title under the new style of scoring.  I also find it humorous when people who stick up for using the individual tournament to score the team title on the basis that more teams have a chance.  I mean I guess they do, but it really proves how flawed the system is in the fact that teams that wouldn’t otherwise deserve to win a team title may have the chance to do so because of the system that is being used.  Seriously what pride is there in winning a team title when you know you’re not the best team, it’s really pretty humorous in many ways.

This is not to say that having the highest scoring team at the finals is not a great accomplishment.  I would be proud as heck to achieve it, but it in no means proves that your team is the best team.  So anyhow I think that the reason the coach’s trophy got treated the way it did is because we had a system that actually found the best team already in place, so winning a novelty was nice, but didn’t really matter. I think that the IHSWCA Duals will be received much better because it is using a format that actually finds the best team, and has been recognized in our state for the last 17 years as the right way to find a champion.

[Y2CJ41]

So you will expect teams to not showcase winning an IHSAA state championship?  You will expect them to hide the trophy in the nearest closet and use it as a coat rack.

[maligned]

So you will expect teams to not showcase winning an IHSAA state championship?  You will expect them to hide the trophy in the nearest closet and use it as a coat rack.

Obviously, it will mean more than the coaches' trophy did.  The scores will be front and center, people's attention will be brought to it, the respected IHSAA name will be attached to it (although I'm not convinced it will be thought of as highly as 17 years ago).  I don't know about anyone else, but my only point is that, in time, I think the Duals Championship will carry a lot of weight because the perception will be there that it's determining the truly best teams. 

[buscowrestling]

So you will expect teams to not showcase winning an IHSAA state championship?  You will expect them to hide the trophy in the nearest closet and use it as a coat rack.

Im not saying that.  Its not like you should be ashamed of winning it, or you shouldn't celebrate it.  Its a great accomplishment no matter what.  I would be proud and excited to win it, it still doesn't mean that it is not a completley flawed way of finding a team champion.  

[tskin]

No I think he is saying the "coaches trophy" that was handed out was not considered a true indicator of the best team champion and the IHSAA had found that in their Team State series.  So now we find ourselves at a crossroads.  We know the best way to determine the team champ is through Duals and now the IHSWCA will provide that with the IHSWCA Team State, but now the IHSAA recognized Team State Champ will go back to a system we were told for so many years was flawed by the IHSAA, but that will be the IHSAA State Champ.  So in essence we now have two ways to be State Champ that you can't Not honor.......The governing body IHSAA Champ (with a system that is flawed but still the IHSAA Champ) and the IHSWCA Team State Champ (The way the IHSAA told us for 17 years was the only way to crown a true Team Champ)

[buscowrestling]

No I think he is saying the "coaches trophy" that was handed out was not considered a true indicator of the best team champion and the IHSAA had found that in their Team State series.  So now we find ourselves at a crossroads.  We know the best way to determine the team champ is through Duals and now the IHSWCA will provide that with the IHSWCA Team State, but now the IHSAA recognized Team State Champ will go back to a system we were told for so many years was flawed by the IHSAA, but that will be the IHSAA State Champ.  So in essence we now have two ways to be State Champ that you can't Not honor.......The governing body IHSAA Champ (with a system that is flawed but still the IHSAA Champ) and the IHSWCA Team State Champ (The way the IHSAA told us for 17 years was the only way to crown a true Team Champ)

To add to this I would like to say that in many ways it is not a bad thing to have two champions.  Winning a dual, and winning a tournament are two different beasts.  I dont have a problem with there being recognition for both.  I just feel that if one method of crowning a champion has to be used it should be the method which is representative of an entire team.  In all honesty which do you think will be more representative of the top teams the IHSWCA of the IHSAA model?

[gstemv81]

I get a kick out of Y2's snubbing of the IHSWCA's team title versus the real deal IHSAA in the same way that us single class supporters look down on classed team state.

The definition of irony.

[Y2CJ41]

I get a kick out of Y2's snubbing of the IHSWCA's team title versus the real deal IHSAA in the same way that us single class supporters look down on classed team state.

The definition of irony.

I get a kick out of how smart you are.

[BOG190]

I get a kick out of how smart you are.

And I get a kick of how super intelligent you are.

[Bash513]

Lets not go down this road...

I think everyone can agree that if this tournament does become well respected and generally viewed as determining the state champion that is only going to help the sport.  Joe, as an ambassador of sorts, I think it would do a lot to help this tournament if you were fully behind it the way you are with class wrestling.  Whether people like you or not does not change the fact that you have created this site/forum and your opinion and influences carry a lot of weight. 

[Y2CJ41]

And I get a kick of how super intelligent you are.

Without my intelligence you would still be waiting for the IHSWCA messageboard to be fixed.

[tskin]

Oh na he da ent! 

[Y2CJ41]

Lets not go down this road...

I think everyone can agree that if this tournament does become well respected and generally viewed as determining the state champion that is only going to help the sport.  Joe, as an ambassador of sorts, I think it would do a lot to help this tournament if you were fully behind it the way you are with class wrestling.  Whether people like you or not does not change the fact that you have created this site/forum and your opinion and influences carry a lot of weight. 

Maybe it is the fact that now when the IHSWCA goes into a meeting with the IHSAA and asks for them to sponsor a dual team state they will simply say "don't you already have one?"  So that means it will be quite a task to ever get an IHSAA sponsored event again. 

The other issue I have is that as coaches we are "eating our own" in order to put on this event.  We are taking away from already established events in order to put this on.  Luckily there are only a few events that day this year, but in the future we may not be as lucky.  If we have to have it around the same time as the Al Smith/Connersville/North Montgomery we are really going to hinder those events in not only attendance of teams, but also in money generated from the fans. 

Another thing that I am not a big fan of is how the better teams in the state get to get extra matches against other top teams for "free" during the regular season.   It does not help the middle of the pack or lower tier teams and actually helps separate the top teams from everyone else even more.

I personally feel that the IHSWCA's energy should be spent on making the organization stronger by increased membership and rebuilding the bridge with the IHSAA.

[tskin]

Y2 I agree that our event should never compete with any of the long standing Super Duals or Tourneys and our goal is to make sure we can find a place every year on the schedule so that doesn't happen.

And as a coaches association we are starting to "mend the bridges" so to speak in a number of ways with the IHSAA.  Membership is something we as a association have talked about heavily and we are working hard to come up with ideas to encourage coaches to become members.  Any ideas you may have to help increase our membership I would love to hear them.

tskinner@madison.k12.in.us

[Y2CJ41]

I have stated my ideas in the past and they were never acted upon or recorded and barely recognized.

Three simple ways that I have expressed on here a couple times.
1. Online form and PayPal link to sign up for the association
2. All Scholastic dual team members must have a head coach that is a member of the association
3. All IN vs. IL  dual team members must have a head coach that is a member of the association

[tskin]

I have stated my ideas in the past and they were never acted upon or recorded and barely recognized.

Three simple ways that I have expressed on here a couple times.
1. Online form and PayPal link to sign up for the association
2. All Scholastic dual team members must have a head coach that is a member of the association
3. All IN vs. IL  dual team members must have a head coach that is a member of the association

Actually Y2 we have a coach looking into the online paypal option for membership

Number 3 and also any wrestler being selected for Jr and Sr Academic All-State team must be a member.  I am not positive but i think #3 is in effect or is close to being changed that way. 

#2 what level teams are we talking about here?

[Y2CJ41]

Y2 I agree that our event should never compete with any of the long standing Super Duals or Tourneys and our goal is to make sure we can find a place every year on the schedule so that doesn't happen.

And in response to that statement, all events throughout the state are important whether it is the Al Smith or some lesser known super dual.  Any time we put an event like this on a date that there are other events occurring we run the risk of having the host school invited to the event and hindering the whole event.  I believe there are two 16 team tournaments on this date currently and if their hosts are invited are they going to shut down their event?  Most teams will probably accept their invitation to this event so that leaves 15 other schools in a bind without an event that weekend.

[Y2CJ41]

Actually Y2 we have a coach looking into the online paypal option for membership

Number 3 and also any wrestler being selected for Jr and Sr Academic All-State team must be a member.  I am not positive but i think #3 is in effect or is close to being changed that way. 

#2 what level teams are we talking about here?

#3 has never been implemented as last year I know there were some wrestlers on the squad that their coaches were not IHSWCA members.  #2 is meaning the IHSWCA sponsored Scholastic Duals team that wrestles at Wabash in April.   

[tskin]

Gotcha well I completly agree..........Please Lord dont strike me down lol