Author Topic: Disney Duals Legal or Not?  (Read 10170 times)

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raven150

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Re: Disney Duals Legal or Not?
« Reply #100 on: February 24, 2012, 01:07:52 PM »
does going to the Disney Duals or training over moratorium going to make that big of a difference in the upcoming season?
giving the kids time to be kids & coaches the opportunity to spend time with their families should be more important.
some people/coaches won't agree but the moratorium was created for a reason.
"A coach's job is to get an individual or team to a level they can't get to on their own (increase performance). An athlete's job is to control the only two things they can: attitude and effort."


PMWC2009

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Re: Disney Duals Legal or Not?
« Reply #101 on: February 24, 2012, 02:11:43 PM »
We will let you know tomorrow at about 4:00.  

Not sure anyone has answered the original question,  YES it is LEGAL, if you have alternate plans for Coaches the last day or 2.

Good luck to all of the young men wrestling tomorrow.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 02:13:52 PM by PMWC2009 »


The Guru

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Re: Disney Duals Legal or Not?
« Reply #102 on: February 24, 2012, 03:22:41 PM »
Some IHSAA rules are ridiculous. This is one of them.
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Re: Disney Duals Legal or Not?
« Reply #103 on: February 24, 2012, 03:34:35 PM »
Ridiculous because wrestlers should be allowed to wrestle during moratorium, or because the rule has a work-around?
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bjax

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Re: Disney Duals Legal or Not?
« Reply #104 on: February 24, 2012, 03:57:49 PM »
Each member school shall observe a moratorium week starting on Monday of the week which includes July 4th, either IHSAA calendar Week 52 or Week 1. During this seven day period, there shall be no contact between athletes and coaches, and no athletic activities, including conditioning, conducted.

I am not a coach, nor am I associated with any program, so take my opinion for what it's worth; but I think that if the IHSAA didn't want wrestlers going to Disney, they could have easily interpreted the rule in such a way that would disallow them from going. They could have said the volunteers with the wrestlers during the moratorium are for all intents and purposes "coaches," especially because they are taking over for the coaches who leave once the moratorium starts. And there really is no question that competing at Disney counts as an "athletic activity," which is "conducted."  I'm not saying the teams that go are breaking the rule, because the IHSAA has supposedly said they are not. What I am saying is the fact that the IHSAA approved of teams going to Disney with this arrangement tells me they don't mind; and therefore there is no reason to worry about the IHSAA retaliating against wrestling, or looking unfavorably upon wrestling coaches, for skirting the rules or violating the "spirit"of the rule. I hope this doesn't get me into trouble with the moderators ;D


KarlHungus

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Re: Disney Duals Legal or Not?
« Reply #105 on: February 24, 2012, 04:05:35 PM »
"The wrestling club set-up and the regional training center model allows high school coaches to somewhat circumvent some rules" - Bobby Cox
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The Guru

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Re: Disney Duals Legal or Not?
« Reply #106 on: February 24, 2012, 04:52:13 PM »
Ridiculous because wrestlers should be allowed to wrestle during moratorium, or because the rule has a work-around?

Ridiculous because the IHSAA shouldn't be able to dictate what a man's children can, and cannot, do outside of the IHSAA season.
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MatChick76

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Re: Disney Duals Legal or Not?
« Reply #107 on: February 24, 2012, 06:39:11 PM »
Don't you think there are opportunities during moratorium in other sports?  The fact is, the moratorium is there.  I know that there are a lot of things that our football, basketball, soccer, etc. teams could accomplish during that time that would be very valuable to their cause.  We can't expect an entire calender (or even part of a calender that is to impact all sports) to be based around  the things that the sport of wrestling wants to accomplish in the off season.  If our IHSAA calender were altered to accommodate basketball, there would be a huge out crying of "foul" from the wrestling community.

I'm not saying that it's wrong to have a moratorium week, or that other sports wouldn't benefit from some sort of competition during that week...in fact, my son has met several volleyball players when he's been competing in Disney, so I know wrestling isn't the only game in town that week.  I'm just saying, if these families choose to go compete in Disney, and the official coaches remove themselves from the competition once the official moratorium week begins,  I'm not sure what the problem is?  Several families I know made the Disney Duals their vacation, many staying long after the competition had ended to go enjoy Disney World or the Beach. How are "club" teams affected by the moratorium week rules?
« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 06:35:03 PM by MatChick76 »

AJ

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Re: Disney Duals Legal or Not?
« Reply #108 on: February 24, 2012, 08:23:03 PM »
"The wrestling club set-up and the regional training center model allows high school coaches to somewhat circumvent some rules" - Bobby Cox

to somewhat circumvent??????    that sounds like a quote from a person who isnt sure what he is talking about...   you either circumvent the rules or you dont, how does one "somewhat circumvent" some rules....
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Re: Disney Duals Legal or Not?
« Reply #109 on: February 25, 2012, 09:21:58 AM »
does going to the Disney Duals or training over moratorium going to make that big of a difference in the upcoming season?
giving the kids time to be kids & coaches the opportunity to spend time with their families should be more important.
some people/coaches won't agree but the moratorium was created for a reason.

I tire of listening to everyone on this board who nit picks what people are doing to try to better their teams.  I used to be a Disney Duals basher until I actually took my team there.  I can promise everyone here that not one coach who takes there team to Disney is thinking, "man, Disney is the perfect opportunity for me to stick it to the IHSAA and get around Moratorium week."

Seriously?  Seriously?  Disney Duals is a lot of work if you are going to have a productive experience down there.  Anyone can tell you that after wrestling 13 dual meets in 3 days, it's not about fun in the sun.  It's about team building and getting better for the next year.  It's not about trying to skirt the rules.  Maybe before all of the coaches jump on this board and start saying how Disney Duals is one of the contributing reasons for the IHSAA getting rid of Team State get real.  The IHSAA is going to do what they want, when they want, and there isn't much we can do about it.  We can continue to complain about this and point fingers at our own people as the problem, or we can just accept that the reality of the situation is that they are just going to do what they are going to do and make the best out of what we can (IHSWCA Team State is a perfect example of this, instead of complaining, we accepted what was happening, and came up with the best thing that we could for the situation).
6 out of 10 Jake, 6 out of 10

KarlHungus

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Re: Disney Duals Legal or Not?
« Reply #110 on: February 25, 2012, 10:18:25 AM »
I tire of listening to everyone on this board who nit picks what people are doing to try to better their teams.

This is a false premise.  The 'nit picking' is not because people are trying to better their teams.  The 'nit picking' is because the state has given all sports virtually the entire summer to work with our teams and and only ask for seven days MORATORIUM.  This is not the way it always has been.  Instead of honoring the MORATORIUM, "The wrestling club set-up and the regional training center model allows high school coaches to somewhat circumvent some rules"  Those are Bobby Cox' words, not mine.

I used to be a Disney Duals basher until I actually took my team there.  I can promise everyone here that not one coach who takes there team to Disney is thinking, "man, Disney is the perfect opportunity for me to stick it to the IHSAA and get around Moratorium week."  

I don't think anyone is suggesting this.  Put yourself in an IHSAA commissioner's role.  You have just approved some of the most liberal summer contact rules in the country and all you ask is that you give athletes 7 days away from their coaches/sport/school.  Then wrestling clubs start sponsoring groups to go to events that overlap with the those 7 days.  The analogy of the kid that always schedules doctor appointments to conflict with practice really fits here.  Can you kick that kid off the team? Nope.  Are you happy about it? Nope


Seriously?  Seriously?  Disney Duals is a lot of work if you are going to have a productive experience down there.  Anyone can tell you that after wrestling 13 dual meets in 3 days, it's not about fun in the sun.  It's about team building and getting better for the next year.  It's not about trying to skirt the rules.

No one is claiming anything different.  It is my contention that the IHSAA would prefer you use the other 80+ days of the summer to have productive, team building experiences instead of using "The wrestling club set-up and the regional training center model [to] allow high school coaches to somewhat circumvent some rules".

 Maybe before all of the coaches jump on this board and start saying how Disney Duals is one of the contributing reasons for the IHSAA getting rid of Team State get real.  The IHSAA is going to do what they want, when they want, and there isn't much we can do about it.  We can continue to complain about this and point fingers at our own people as the problem, or we can just accept that the reality of the situation is that they are just going to do what they are going to do and make the best out of what we can (IHSWCA Team State is a perfect example of this, instead of complaining, we accepted what was happening, and came up with the best thing that we could for the situation).

That is certainly one way to look at it.  I would prefer to think that a more positive relationship with the IHSAA is possible but that it MUST start with wrestling coaches.  If that means pointing out actions that might not be in the best interest of the sport and its standing with the IHSAA, so be it.  I just think that for the good of the sport it does no good to throw up your hands and accept that coaches can never have influence with the IHSAA.  I see too much evidence in other sports of the IHSAA working with coaches associations and making changes that coaches want.
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Re: Disney Duals Legal or Not?
« Reply #111 on: February 25, 2012, 10:39:39 AM »
It sounds like the IHSAA and the teams going to DD has worked this out. If you don't want your kid or kids going great don't let them! Why all the crying foul, foul if it does not concern you personally why keep beating a dead horse? I think some people just like to hear themselves type. Good luck to all the teams that are going to DD while following 
IHSAA rules. Those that are complaining let it go, if the teams do not have it worked out with the IHSAA they will have to deal with the repercussions not you, but IO am sure they are thankful for your concern. I know, I know everybody is entitled to their opinion but over and over and over come on lets move on.  ;D ;D ;D

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Re: Disney Duals Legal or Not?
« Reply #112 on: February 25, 2012, 10:58:25 AM »
Saying that a rule has been circumvented and actually having things "worked out" are two very different situations.  Hopefully we can all at least agree on that. 
Mike Buschman
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KarlHungus

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Re: Disney Duals Legal or Not?
« Reply #113 on: February 25, 2012, 11:17:43 AM »
It sounds like the IHSAA and the teams going to DD has worked this out. If you don't want your kid or kids going great don't let them! Why all the crying foul, foul if it does not concern you personally why keep beating a dead horse?

No one is crying foul, it is OK for HS wrestling clubs to compete over the IHSAA moratorium.  Bobby Cox said so when he said "The wrestling club set-up and the regional training center model allows high school coaches to somewhat circumvent some rules".  I am suggesting that it does concern all high school wrestling programs when some "circumvent rules" according to Mr. Cox.

I think some people just like to hear themselves type. Good luck to all the teams that are going to DD while following 
IHSAA rules. Those that are complaining let it go, if the teams do not have it worked out with the IHSAA they will have to deal with the repercussions not you, but IO am sure they are thankful for your concern.

Again I am suggesting that when some coaches "circumvent rules" it does have repercussions on the entire high school wrestling community.


I know, I know everybody is entitled to their opinion but over and over and over come on lets move on.  ;D ;D ;D

If the concerns I bring up have no validity why do folks keep responding?  I am not responding to myself.  I just feel that the IHSAA has given all sports 80+ days in the summer to do whatever they want and only ask for a SEVEN day MORATORIUM.  Thats a pretty good deal but not good enough for some. 
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AJ

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Re: Disney Duals Legal or Not?
« Reply #114 on: February 25, 2012, 11:39:50 AM »
Saying that a rule has been circumvented and actually having things "worked out" are two very different situations.  Hopefully we can all at least agree on that. 

a coach telling his kids to get a work out in over the 7 days is technically circumventing the rules as well.... coach is instructing his wrestlers to work and train over break....

that sounds foolish, but so does Cox saying "somewhat circumvent rules".....

if the HS coach or assistant coaches  have no contact over the break then there is no rule breaking or no circumventing of the rule... 
AJ Bradley

Galagore

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Re: Disney Duals Legal or Not?
« Reply #115 on: February 25, 2012, 12:03:17 PM »
a coach telling his kids to get a work out in over the 7 days is technically circumventing the rules as well.... coach is instructing his wrestlers to work and train over break....

that sounds foolish, but so does Cox saying "somewhat circumvent rules".....

if the HS coach or assistant coaches  have no contact over the break then there is no rule breaking or no circumventing of the rule... 

Not sure exactly what your post has to do with mine.  I say that circumventing rules and having things worked out are different situations.  Everyone keeps saying that things are worked out or that they are operating with the state's blessing.  If that "blessing" or "work out" is something they have in writing, then so be it.  But it is different than the state saying the reason it is permissible is because it is not technically a rules violation. 

You are giving examples of people circumventing the rules.  I guess I get what you are saying, but it is unclear to me why my post was quoted in yours.

As has been stated earlier, when someone is doing something they know is OK, they usually don't bend over backward to prove that it is OK.  They just let the naysayers blow hot air.
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KarlHungus

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Re: Disney Duals Legal or Not?
« Reply #116 on: February 25, 2012, 12:04:21 PM »
a coach telling his kids to get a work out in over the 7 days is technically circumventing the rules as well.... coach is instructing his wrestlers to work and train over break....
 

This aint math class....2 negatives don't make a positive but I am glad to hear some one admit and agree that circumvention is taking place.
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AJ

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Re: Disney Duals Legal or Not?
« Reply #117 on: February 25, 2012, 12:12:31 PM »
Not sure exactly what your post has to do with mine.  I say that circumventing rules and having things worked out are different situations.  Everyone keeps saying that things are worked out or that they are operating with the state's blessing.  If that "blessing" or "work out" is something they have in writing, then so be it.  But it is different than the state saying the reason it is permissible is because it is not technically a rules violation. 

You are giving examples of people circumventing the rules.  I guess I get what you are saying, but it is unclear to me why my post was quoted in yours.

As has been stated earlier, when someone is doing something they know is OK, they usually don't bend over backward to prove that it is OK.  They just let the naysayers blow hot air.

My post has nothing to do with yours...  It was more about Bobby Cox's quote of "somewhat circumventing the rules" .... 

I agree with your last sentiment, but when what you are doing is being attacked and when you are being partially blamed for losing team state then I think the person, or people, have the right to stand up fpr what they are doing....

AJ Bradley

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Re: Disney Duals Legal or Not?
« Reply #118 on: February 25, 2012, 12:16:43 PM »
This aint math class....2 negatives don't make a positive but I am glad to hear some one admit and agree that circumvention is taking place.

so is there a difference in the circumventing of the rules between those who go to DD and those who tell/instruct their wrestlers to get workouts in and stay in shape over moratorium???

I see both of these as following rules because contact between coaches is NOT being made during the 7 days....  but some see this as circumventing rules...
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KarlHungus

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Re: Disney Duals Legal or Not?
« Reply #119 on: February 25, 2012, 12:23:30 PM »
My post has nothing to do with yours...  It was more about Bobby Cox's quote of "somewhat circumventing the rules" .... 

I agree with your last sentiment, but when what you are doing is being attacked and when you are being partially blamed for losing team state then I think the person, or people, have the right to stand up fpr what they are doing....


So you quote someone and then say your response has nothing to do with the quote???

I would prefer to call this a discussion and not an attacks.  Even though I have been called names and accused of nit picking and jealousy I really don't feel attacked.  But the sentiment should really not change, if you are 100% comfortable then why bend over backwards and respond to all of the nit pickers who only like to hear themselves type and are clearly jealous that others are doing things to make their programs better. 
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Re: Disney Duals Legal or Not?
« Reply #120 on: February 25, 2012, 12:25:34 PM »
My post has nothing to do with yours...  It was more about Bobby Cox's quote of "somewhat circumventing the rules" .... 

I agree with your last sentiment, but when what you are doing is being attacked and when you are being partially blamed for losing team state then I think the person, or people, have the right to stand up fpr what they are doing....



Of course they have the right.  Maybe I am different than most, but I know that if someone is saying what our wrestling team does is against the rules, I am not paying that person much mind.  I know we are doing things the right way.  I know that our administration is not going to take issue with the way we conduct business.  I know any investigation by the IHSAA will turn out to be a waste of their time.  Thus, I feel no need to defend our program against someone who may want to say that we are intentionally doing something illegal or unethical.  I know their logic holds no water, so it doesn't merit a response beyond something to the effect of, "You are incorrect.  What we are doing is perfectly legitimate."  And if someone brings something to our attention that we feel might actually be illegal or unethical, we will discuss the matter internally and if we or one of our athletes have made a mistake, it will be swiftly corrected and reported.
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Re: Disney Duals Legal or Not?
« Reply #121 on: February 25, 2012, 12:26:51 PM »
So you quote someone and then say your response has nothing to do with the quote???

I would prefer to call this a discussion and not an attacks.  Even though I have been called names and accused of nit picking and jealousy I really don't feel attacked.  But the sentiment should really not change, if you are 100% comfortable then why bend over backwards and respond to all of the nit pickers who only like to hear themselves type and are clearly jealous that others are doing things to make their programs better. 

Wow, we must have been responding simultaneously....
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KarlHungus

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Re: Disney Duals Legal or Not?
« Reply #122 on: February 25, 2012, 12:37:54 PM »
so is there a difference in the circumventing of the rules between those who go to DD and those who tell/instruct their wrestlers to get workouts in and stay in shape over moratorium???

I see both of these as following rules because contact between coaches is NOT being made during the 7 days....  but some see this as circumventing rules...

You just said that a coach telling kids to work out on their own is "technically circumventing the rules" but in your next post you say both are fine???  

Its hard to debate an issue when you are arguing both sides.

It is simple for me....the state gave us the entire summer to do whatever we want and mandated a 7 day moratorium FOR THE KIDS.  Every athletic department and coaching staff I have worked with has interpreted this as time FOR THE KIDS.  They already have baseball, basketball, football, cross country, wrestling, and track coaches asking for their time the other 80+days so we are 100% hands off during moratorium.
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AJ

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Re: Disney Duals Legal or Not?
« Reply #123 on: February 25, 2012, 01:19:00 PM »
So you quote someone and then say your response has nothing to do with the quote???

I would prefer to call this a discussion and not an attacks.  Even though I have been called names and accused of nit picking and jealousy I really don't feel attacked.  But the sentiment should really not change, if you are 100% comfortable then why bend over backwards and respond to all of the nit pickers who only like to hear themselves type and are clearly jealous that others are doing things to make their programs better. 

his quote used the word "circumvent" which is the word I saw originally used by Cox, so that is how I can quote him but not have anything to do with his post because I was referring to original "circumvent" line i saw used by Cox.   

I do not necessarily know why they are bending over backwards. However, if a person feels like they want to justify their actions then they are allowed to do so. They do not have to follow the model that you or other people have of sitting around and not worrying about the naysayers or nitpickers.  Just because they felt a need to defend themselves and their choices does not imply guilt or wrong doing.


AJ Bradley

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Re: Disney Duals Legal or Not?
« Reply #124 on: February 25, 2012, 01:26:30 PM »
You just said that a coach telling kids to work out on their own is "technically circumventing the rules" but in your next post you say both are fine???  

Its hard to debate an issue when you are arguing both sides.

Because I do not see it as breaking the rules.  Bobby Cox sees it as "somewhat curcumventing the rules" so technically according to the IHSAA it would be.  I dont have to agree with the statement because I do not....  his area is vague and Bobby Cox's wording and statements are even more vague.

It is simple for me....the state gave us the entire summer to do whatever we want and mandated a 7 day moratorium FOR THE KIDS.  Every athletic department and coaching staff I have worked with has interpreted this as time FOR THE KIDS.  They already have baseball, basketball, football, cross country, wrestling, and track coaches asking for their time the other 80+days so we are 100% hands off during moratorium.

We are hands off as well during that week.  But if wrestlers choose to do work or wrestle or go to Disney, then that is their decision.  If coaches do not force them to do this or have contact with them during those 7 days then I see no problem and I see no rule being broken...
AJ Bradley