Biggest disappointment

[KarlHungus]

I remember seeing a national champion in college doing the same thing as schoettle right before we seen the flip

Caldwell turned his back and ran with 2 seconds left and a four point lead....hardly analogous

[kevinl]

And Mr. Lovejoy is clearly more frustrated with the officiating and post match actions than the high school kid in question.

Thank you Karl for reading my posts and taking the time to understand.

Honestly I understand Anthony's actions, however they are disrespectful and if he understands that I am OK with it.  Lets move on.  Sam already has.

But the official DID miss awarding points AND the CG coaching staff leaves a lot to be desired.

[Cale Hoover]

Chad and Joe,

It is easy to take shots at me on here.  I have never done that to you and will not now.  Anytime you want to discuss face to face feel free to let me know.  You both know I am not hiding and am willing to talk to anyone in regards to the sport of wrestling.  

I have no problem being held to a higher standard and hold everyone in my program to a higher standard than any of you have set for Center Grove Wrestling.  I did not say my coaches were innocent.  However, what they have been accused of is not accurate and they could have handled things better.  It is my job to make sure that happens.  I have a problem with posters going after kids and moderators who allow it to happen.  

All I have said is that they did not instigate the situation on Friday night at state finals and Joe's claim of of them drinking before the seeding meeting at Mishawaka was not accurate.  I have handled both situations with my coaches in hopes that all of us handle situations better in the future.  

I will defend anyone and everyone in my program when I believe they are not being accurately portrayed.  I learned a long time ago I would not make everyone happy so do not expect me to lose any sleep based on your opinions of me.  I am sure there are many who dislike me and some might even have good reason.  All I know is I try to treat everyone with respect and dignity and work to be a the best person I can be.  I will be the first to admit that I am not without my flaws.  

When I ran for IHSWCA President I knew I was putting myself out their for criticism.  Like all officers of our association I often put the sport of wrestling and others in front of my own program.  I was honored to serve and grateful that other coaches thought enough of me to elect me despite my relative young age and limited experience.  You both have been very critical of those who have volunteered to serve, I hope both of you will consider to run for one of the offices and continue to make improvements to the organization.

You are both entitled to your opinions and can run your website anyway you choose.  I will admit to disagree with both of you on a great many things.  For one, I do not often agree with what you post and what you allow to be posted on this website.  

By the way Joe, I did address both situations.  I just chose to do it in private with my coaches and school administration.  We just chose not to do it in public or on this website.  As the leader of Center Grove wrestling I am responsible for the actions of everyone involved.  I will continue with my philosophy of praising in public and criticizing in private.  Any discipline of my coaching staff is quite honestly none of your business. 

Best of luck in your future endeavors.

[KarlHungus]

Chad and Joe,

It is easy to take shots at me on here.  I have never done that to you and will not now.  Anytime you want to discuss face to face feel free to let me know.  You both know I am not hiding and am willing to talk to anyone in regards to the sport of wrestling.  

Not sure where you get that I am taking a shot at you on this topic?  But if playing the role of martyr helps your psyche, so be it.  And since you bring up the face to face meeting.....the last (and only) time we met face to face, I got a clear sense that you were not all that willing to talk with me regarding the sport of wrestling.  Maybe I am just to sensitive, but if a serious discussion about the state of the coaches association was planned, that discussion would last more than 10 minutes and not be held standing in the middle of a pig barn.  

 I have a problem with posters going after kids and moderators who allow it to happen.  

I have read and reread Mr. Lovejoy's comments and he has even taken the time to highlight all instances which could be construed as "going after" this wrestler.  None seem inconsistent with what occurred on the mat and, as I stated in a previous response, Mr. Lovejoy's frustration is clearly much more pointed at the officials (I happen to agree with him) and the post match exchanges (of which I have no knowledge so I won't comment but there seems to be genuine disagreement about these events).

Turning the accusatory spotlight on opponents in debate situations is an age old technique to avoid answering tough questions directed at you.  By accusing me of letting posters "go after kids" you are questioning my integrity.  If you have a specific post that you would like me or any of the moderators to review please let me or them know (there is a link where you can "Report to moderator" on every post, it will be reviewed and an explanation will be provided.

So far you have accused me of attacking you and allowing kids to be attacked on this message board.  Both of which I dispute.  I have a difficult time taking people seriously who engage in this type of behavior.
 

You both have been very critical of those who have volunteered to serve, I hope both of you will consider to run for one of the offices and continue to make improvements to the organization.

I have been very critical of the organization and its structure, this I admit unashamedly.  I have also been critical of those who seem to think the status quo is fine and dandy in the organization when membership peaks at under 50% of the schools.  Just because people volunteer, it does not absolve them of any criticism.  And to let those who care know, I did join the IHSWCA, I volunteered my time to come with some very simple ways of improving the structure of the organization, presented them, and heard nothing back.  When I asked if my ideas had been reviewed, discussed, etc., you told me you were busy.

Hiding behind the volunteer cloak does not work.  If we want to keep time cards on amount of hours spent volunteering to promote wrestling in Indiana, I am willing to play that game.  However, I'm not sure what it would prove.  The problem is with the structure and those unwilling to make changes to the organization.  The mere fact that there are two ELECTED offices for the entire state should make this blatantly obvious.  Hell, the 8th grade class I teach has 5 elected student council reps for 92 students.

Despite my general disgust with the way the organization is structured, I still volunteered my time to help in the planning of proposed team state dual meet.  So please don't try to paint me as keyboard warrior who is unwilling to help.  

You are both entitled to your opinions and can run your website anyway you choose.  I will admit to disagree with both of you on a great many things.  For one, I do not often agree with what you post and what you allow to be posted on this website.  

Thank you for entitling me to my opinion and entitling Joe the ability to run his website the way he chooses.  I am glad we have your blessing.  It is unfortunate that so much time is spent accusing and defending instead of improving.

[ontherise219]

I was asked what my biggest disappointment was and I said that I have to wait another year to the state finals again.

[frigginhurts]

just a few comments about all of lovejoy/schoettle match.

I do agree that Mr. Lovejoy was more critical of the officiating and the CG asst. coach than anything, however some people have attacked the way Schoettle acted. 
all in all nobody handled this situation very  well in that match and I'll leave it at that.

What I find embarrassing is the way the coaches are arguing on a public forum.   I understand Coach Hoover is trying to defend himself and his school but I do think between the 3 of them they need to clear the air on this issue (and it sounds like a few others) with some emails or phone calls.   I am not going to comment on who I think is right or wrong but I just don't think it is good for the sport when coaches are fighting on this forum.

I would also like to thank all of the coaches for what they do, wrestling is the best sport ever.

And finally, although I don't agree with everything on this forum, I thank you for creating and running this website.

[El Lardo]

I remember seeing a national champion in college doing the same thing as schoettle right before we seen the flip

Marienetti(sp?) from Illinois defeating McIlravey(sp?) from Iowa circa 96/97?

[ontherise219]

Marienetti(sp?) from Illinois defeating McIlravey(sp?) from Iowa circa 96/97?

Iowa fans do not like Marienetti

[El Lardo]

Marienetti(sp?) from Illinois defeating McIlravey(sp?) from Iowa circa 96/97?

Nevermind, I just looked up on youtube, I'm thinking of the wrong match.

[El Lardo]

Iowa fans do not like Marienetti

I bet not, kinda how Iowa St. fans feel about Larry Owings 

Was that Lincoln's only collegiate loss?

[ontherise219]

I bet not, kinda how Iowa St. fans feel about Larry Owings 

Was that Lincoln's only collegiate loss?

I think Lincoln had a couple losses none bigger than that 2 former Indiana wrestlers hold wins over Marrinotti in college jeff jorge and andy Trevino

[MatChick76]

My biggest disappointment was the officiating overall - I thought it was pretty poor throughout the day on Saturday - no consistency.

With all the 4x's in the house on Saturday...it would have been cool if they had them on the floor and spotlighted them as they read their names, then had Jason Tsirtsis join them...wouldn't that have been cool?

[PURDUEdad]

With all the 4x's in the house on Saturday...it would have been cool if they had them on the floor and spotlighted them as they read their names, then had Jason Tsirtsis join them...wouldn't that have been cool?

Great idea, and definitely a missed opportunity . . .

[Salzer]

But the official DID miss awarding points AND the CG coaching staff leaves a lot to be desired.

This official DID NOT miss awarding points. The one instance in which the wrestlers went out of bounds and the official raised his closed fist was not a stall call, rather the signal that the wrestlers were out of bounds. Most officials would use an open hand to signal this call, however, this particular official uses a closed fist which is often times mistaken for a stall call. That particular official also raises two closed fists to show neutral, which is ALSO OFTEN MISTAKEN that he is calling a double stall. This was also all explained at the scorer's table when there was some confusion about a stall call that was not followed by the awarding of a point. A lot of things that have the appearance of one thing to the crowd are often explained at the scorer's table. Unfortunately, the fans don't get to hear what happened.

[Charger wrestling dad]

This official DID NOT miss awarding points. The one instance in which the wrestlers went out of bounds and the official raised his closed fist was not a stall call, rather the signal that the wrestlers were out of bounds. Most officials would use an open hand to signal this call, however, this particular official uses a closed fist which is often times mistaken for a stall call. That particular official also raises two closed fists to show neutral, which is ALSO OFTEN MISTAKEN that he is calling a double stall. This was also all explained at the scorer's table when there was some confusion about a stall call that was not followed by the awarding of a point. A lot of things that have the appearance of one thing to the crowd are often explained at the scorer's table. Unfortunately, the fans don't get to hear what happened.

If that is the case with the official then this should be addressed with him to make that change in his hand signals. I have been around wrestling for 30+years, as a wrestler, vol coach and parent, and have wrestled while in the military in europe. And as far as I know the signal for out of bounds and both wrestlers are nuetral is open hands, stalling is a closed fist. I may be wrong but I believe that is what the rule book shows along with closed fist for stalling.

[Charger wrestling dad]

Could someone who knows the rules better than me explain why a point could not have beeen awarded for fleeing? Sure he did not flee the mat but he was fleeing the other wrestler and is that not what you are doing when you flee the mat? This is a serious question and am qurious of how this rule could apply.

Good question, I would consider it fleeing. SO zebra's what is the answer?

[PoTweet]

Good question, I would consider it fleeing. SO zebra's what is the answer?

Good question, I would consider it fleeing. SO zebra's what is the answer?

Is the technical violation fleeing or flee the mat?

[kevinl]

This official DID NOT miss awarding points. The one instance in which the wrestlers went out of bounds and the official raised his closed fist was not a stall call, rather the signal that the wrestlers were out of bounds. Most officials would use an open hand to signal this call, however, this particular official uses a closed fist which is often times mistaken for a stall call. That particular official also raises two closed fists to show neutral, which is ALSO OFTEN MISTAKEN that he is calling a double stall. This was also all explained at the scorer's table when there was some confusion about a stall call that was not followed by the awarding of a point. A lot of things that have the appearance of one thing to the crowd are often explained at the scorer's table. Unfortunately, the fans don't get to hear what happened.

Salzar,
Nice theory but it is wrong.

I do not know if you are a friend of Mr Ref's trying to defend him but he clearly was wrong and cost one young man an opportunity to move on. That should not be acceptable at this level in our sport.

But you do not have to believe me.  I have spelled it out for you below.

If you go to Broadcastsport.net and go to 51:07 on Mat three Mr Lambert clearly raises his right hand and points at Schoettle and warns for stalling.  

Then at 51:15 they are still in bounds when Mr Lambert clearly raises his hand and again points at Schoettle while they are in bounds because he continues to back away.  At that point the first point for stalling should have been awarded.  Clearly the announcers see it that was as well.  

Then the third and final warning came after the run at 51:31.  But only one point is awarded.

None of the three times he raised his hand and pointed at Schoettle were when anyone was out of bounds.  

In addition to the announcer another coach on the floor is clearly over heard saying that it should have been two points.  The Bellmont radio announcer saw it exactly the same way during his broadcast.

Apparently you and Mr Ref were wrong too.  Check it yourself if you have any doubts, it is clearly there.

If this ref likes to hold up his closed fist and point at one wrestler while they are in bounds to signify out of bounds then it is time for him to hang up his whistle.

[Salzer]

A friend of the official, no. An acquaintance of the official, kind of. Familiar with the official, yes.

I'll agree that it is poor mechanics, as pictures 2, 8, and 16 clearly show on page 83 of the rule book. I'll also acknowledge that I was present at the scorer's table when the explanation was made that the second one that you refer to was clarified that it was not his intention to call stalling. Had it been called as stalling, it would/should have been one point, and then the subsequent stalling call would have been an additional one point (not two points).

I'm not attacking you, your son, or your son's coaching staff, just adding a perspective from a different view point of what was discussed between the official, the scorer and the timer before any coaches were involved.  I did indeed review the video prior to posting on the topic. Finally, I'm not saying that it was right or wrong, as I'm not qualified to do so. Bad mechanics, absolutely, and in this case caused a whole lot of confusion as well. Don't take it personal, as I'm not taking anyone's side.

[kevinl]

A friend of the official, no. An acquaintance of the official, kind of. Familiar with the official, yes.

I'll agree that it is poor mechanics, as pictures 2, 8, and 16 clearly show on page 83 of the rule book. I'll also acknowledge that I was present at the scorer's table when the explanation was made that the second one that you refer to was clarified that it was not his intention to call stalling. Had it been called as stalling, it would/should have been one point, and then the subsequent stalling call would have been an additional one point (not two points).

I'm not attacking you, your son, or your son's coaching staff, just adding a perspective from a different view point of what was discussed between the official, the scorer and the timer before any coaches were involved.  I did indeed review the video prior to posting on the topic. Finally, I'm not saying that it was right or wrong, as I'm not qualified to do so. Bad mechanics, absolutely, and in this case caused a whole lot of confusion as well. Don't take it personal, as I'm not taking anyone's side.

But that is a different point than you made before.

Before you said I was wrong because that was how he calls out of bounds.  Now you say he was calling stalling but it was not his intent.  The kid was stalling, continued to call, he clearly made the call three times, ALL THREE IN BOUNDS NOT OUT OF BOUNDS!!!

How did he defend clearly calling stalling when in fact the wrestler was stalling and then say it was not his intent?  Apparently his right arm accidentally raised in the air, closed fisted, then his left arm raised, pointed a finger at Schoettle.  Because I am not the only one who saw it that way.  If you looked at the video, it was very clear that was what he was calling.

If he remembers one of the three to involve being out of bounds then it is past time for him to retire because no one was out of bounds in any of the three instances.

[terryopinionated]

Can't you quit beating a dead horse? Everyone knows that you disagreed with the calls, you disagreed with the kid and his coaching staff,  and you think that the official should retire. What's done is done, right or wrong, unfortunate or not. You're attacking a guy who isn't saying you're wrong, he's saying what he heard and nothing more (or less).

[kevinl]

Can't you quit beating a dead horse? Everyone knows that you disagreed with the calls, you disagreed with the kid and his coaching staff,  and you think that the official should retire. What's done is done, right or wrong, unfortunate or not. You're attacking a guy who isn't saying you're wrong, he's saying what he heard and nothing more (or less).

This is a public forum, you can chose to read something else if you like.

I did not attack Mr Salazar, I asked him how he, the ref, defended those calls.  Mr Salazar first said they were because the wrestlers were out of bounds, but a review of the tape shows that incorrect neither boy was out of bounds.

Since Mr Salazar was the one that said I was still incorrect because this ref did not intend to call the second stalling I asked what his defense for the clear action could have been.  That is not an attack on Mr Salazar either.

You seem to have difficulty in understanding where the attacks are here or even the issues that are being discussed.

The ref clearly blew a call, our wrestler and coaches expected the call to be honored and the CG coach was out of line getting into our coach's face, cussing at him and threatening him and requiring that he was pulled out of it.

But again I dislike young Mr Schoettle's decision to run but I have not attacked him once.  He is a young man and made a rash decision in the heat of the moment.  the adults involved are the ones that should have handled it better.

I am only replying to those who have directly responded to me,  if that is beating a dead horse to you then I have nothing to say.

Hey guys so we do not offend my terry, I am supposed to ignore you now.  Yet somehow I think he will find some way to be offended by that as well.

[wrestling1]

kevinl:  Unfortunately you do not have your facts straight about the situation occuring after the match.  The only cussing involved that I made was in repeating to others what your assistant coach was making toward our athlete as we were exiting the floor after the match.  There were absolutely no threats made toward your coach or anyone else.  I'm sure it appeared to be worse from afar but the situation was not even close to being anything else than words.  I understand your frustrations toward the ref and the way the match ended, but the FWBL coaches stated their case at the scorer's table and whatever issue was at hand involving the stalling calls was resolved then.  I also understand you are frustrated with me and want to state things that you assume I said were said, but that is completely false. 

I would also like to make a comment to those who addressed the CG coaches and relating the post-match discussion to the Al Smith seeding meeting.  I did not attend the seeding meeting so please do not relate those items to me personnaly. 

You're son is a good wrestler as evident in his ability to make it to the state tournament as a freshman.  He certainly has the ability to contend for a state title over the next 3 years and I wish him the best in his pursuit of his goals.

Jay Yates
yatesj@centergrove.k12.in.us

[kjiufan]

It looked like Molloy did come to wrestle... He got out to a 6-2 lead I think and then it seemed like he just gassed.  Congrats to Blanton for once again pulling off a huge win...

I totally agree. Looked like he was very tired in the 3rd. I'm a huge fan of his and was very bummed to see him get beat. Blanton on the other hand wrestled a great match!

[kevinl]

kevinl:  Unfortunately you do not have your facts straight about the situation occuring after the match.  The only cussing involved that I made was in repeating to others what your assistant coach was making toward our athlete as we were exiting the floor after the match.  There were absolutely no threats made toward your coach or anyone else.  I'm sure it appeared to be worse from afar but the situation was not even close to being anything else than words.  I understand your frustrations toward the ref and the way the match ended, but the FWBL coaches stated their case at the scorer's table and whatever issue was at hand involving the stalling calls was resolved then.  I also understand you are frustrated with me and want to state things that you assume I said were said, but that is completely false. 

I would also like to make a comment to those who addressed the CG coaches and relating the post-match discussion to the Al Smith seeding meeting.  I did not attend the seeding meeting so please do not relate those items to me personnaly. 

You're son is a good wrestler as evident in his ability to make it to the state tournament as a freshman.  He certainly has the ability to contend for a state title over the next 3 years and I wish him the best in his pursuit of his goals.

Jay Yates
yatesj@centergrove.k12.in.us

I appreciate your response however my facts come directly from others not involved with Luers or CG so pardon me for not excepting your explanation.  We will chose to disagree, hopefully amicably.  My comments were not based on what I what I thought happened from afar.  More than a few people heard your remarks differently than you apparently intended them.  My guess is that it ultimately comes down to a perception of CG and its coaching staff.  However as an adult YOU have to understand that you cannot get up in the face of another coach like that, in public, and not expect there to be consequences.

I do however accept your willingness to reach out and bury the hatchet as it were and your ability to understand my complaints.  And it is buried as far as I am concerned.  Unlike your boss you seem to understand and not try to cover up by deception what I stated.  Hopefully the two of you can start cleaning up the apparent perception problem that exists with your program for your sake, the wrestlers sake, and for the sport's sake.

I have no problem with your wrestler.  It was disrespectful but he is still a young man and I believe from side conversations that he understands that and wants to put this behind him.

Whether the coaches discussed it with the ref and whether it was resolved is still another story, one I am sure if the shoe were on the other foot you would understand.