Does anyone really wonder why we don't have team state?

[AJ]

A lot of times when a thread starts making personal attacks it gets shut down, interesting that when the moderator is one of them making attacks it's ok. Agree or not, let's move on and act like adults instead of being poor role models for kids, and we wonder why they yell at refs.

I do not see a personal attack or threat.  I see this at an attack on a situation, not the individual. 

[WrestleMan]

I'd still put the burdon on the IHSAA.  They took a huge step in 1995-96 by starting the team state series.  The original concept worked very well for a while.  However, as these line-up problems arose, the IHSAA should have looked at ways to improve it rather than just blame the coaches.  Honestly, other than eliminating team semistate, how is this year's tournament any different (i.e., better) than it was in 1995-96?

The fatal flaw with the system was holding it during the same time as the individual series.  The IHSAA put coaches in the bad situation of having to choose between what was best for their own program/kids or keeping a flawed system going as is.  Had the IHSAA listened to the complaints, they could have made changes to improve it that would have been better for more programs and wrestlers.

This is probably the best post that has been made on the subject.  If the IHSAA really wanted to keep the Team series alive they could have with a few minor changes, but they didn't and they placed coaches in a tough spot.  For so long the focus this time of year was on the individual series and suddenly it is supposed to be the team one day and the individual the next.  Like someone mentioned earlier, if we could have the Team Regional the Wednesday after Individual State the focus could remain on individuals until that portion of the season were over.  I don't think the blame can be placed solely in one spot.

[goul149]

I do not see a personal attack or threat.  I see this at an attack on a situation, not the individual. 

What a joke for so-called leaders in our state to do this!!!!!  

Anyone else notice that Kayla Miracle didn't wrestle at team regionals?  And the other Culver Military selective forfeits?  We are a laughing stock to the IHSAA and rightfully so.  

AJ that seems to be a little bit of a personal attack.

[aoberlin]

I'd still put the burdon on the IHSAA.  They took a huge step in 1995-96 by starting the team state series.  The original concept worked very well for a while.  However, as these line-up problems arose, the IHSAA should have looked at ways to improve it rather than just blame the coaches.  Honestly, other than eliminating team semistate, how is this year's tournament any different (i.e., better) than it was in 1995-96?

The fatal flaw with the system was holding it during the same time as the individual series.  The IHSAA put coaches in the bad situation of having to choose between what was best for their own program/kids or keeping a flawed system going as is.  Had the IHSAA listened to the complaints, they could have made changes to improve it that would have been better for more programs and wrestlers.

Well said.

[M109R]

East Noble brought it last night! They wrestled Penn every bit as tough as we did and darn near pulled it out. Good luck to all the EN kids at regionals.

My question is , How the heck is EN not ranked . Was very impressed with them last night .

[Y2CJ41]

The only thing I really want to say about this is that New Castle placed every wrestler that was eligible to compete, and met our school's attendance requirements, on the mat except for one who had an injury.   All six wrestlers were in our Sectional line-up, which included only eleven kids, so they were not JV kids.  What you, or anyone else on here thinks about me, does not matter.  The truth is the IHSAA declared last spring, when they voted to end the Dual tournament, that the Tournament was meaningless so why encourage kids that are sick to come to school and wrestle when they can be getting well and maybe have some success in the tournament that counts.  For various reasons we have had trouble fielding a full line-up all year.  Most of the year (especially since grades came out) we have forfeited 4-5 weight classes each time out so the stretch from nine or ten weight classes full to six is not a long one.

Rex,
You stated two different contradictory reasons for not your actions.
1. You stated only six wrestlers were eligible to wrestle due to sickness or whatnot
2. You stated that since this is the last year for team state that there is no need to take your whole team.

Which reason is it?

It is amazing to me that someone coaching at a 4A school with over 1000 students and someone that has had 100's of state qualifiers and placers, taken teams to Team State and has the world record for dual meet wins doesn't have a few JV kids to fill in for at least a couple of the injured/sick kids.  Even at our school with five kids out we can field 10-12 spots in our lineup and we only finished the year with 17(+2 injured) kids.

Added to all this is you have been in numerous meetings with the IHSAA brass and know how much this team tournament means to them and more importantly how much coaches making a mockery of it pisses them off.  Not only did you send team state out with a bang, you also prevented any future progress with the IHSAA for any proposals the coaches bring to them.

[Y2CJ41]

I can certainly understand from the spectator's point of view why someone might not understand why a school would bring a partial team to Team Regionals.  I would point out though that the first flaw in the system is that an "individually" based scoring system was being applied to a "team" concept at sectionals.  Just because a team won sectionals, doesn't necessarily mean they are a solid dual meet team.  There are numerous examples through the years of teams who won team titles in post season events but really only had a handful of good wrestlers in their lineup.  I don't say this to be disrespectful, but it is simply a reality.  

A good solution to this team dilemma would have been for the IHSAA to implement a "classed" Team Duals event like many other states have in place.  In Indiana we are assuming that schools of all sizes and demographics can compete year in and year out at an extremely high caliber, and this just isn't realistic to expect.  With respect to "team", our sport is no different than say... football.  Do we expect our small (1A) schools to play against our state's large (5A) schools in the post season?  Most people would immediately say, "well of course not... the big schools have more kids, better weight rooms, nicer facilites, etc, etc."  But for those exact same reasons, it is almost impossible for a small/mid size school wrestling team to compete with their large school counterparts each year.

Head coaches (and some assistants) of teams also understand the myriad of issues that can quickly arise with a team as well such as illness, injury, academic issues, etc, etc.  during a season.  Again, due to school size and demographics, not all teams have the luxury of having a full JV squad to fill holes in the varsity lineup when adversity strikes a team.  It is easy to make assumptions about why a team wasn't at full strength, but again, until you have been at the helm of a high school team, I don't think it is fair to pass judgement.

Coach McCormick

So because it is a flawed system, we should just make a mockery of it?  Great way for the coaches to boost their reputation with the IHSAA.

[Y2CJ41]

A lot of times when a thread starts making personal attacks it gets shut down, interesting that when the moderator is one of them making attacks it's ok. Agree or not, let's move on and act like adults instead of being poor role models for kids, and we wonder why they yell at refs.

So we should just let any reputation we had with the IHSAA go down the tubes even more?  Great idea, lets not hold our coaches accountable for their actions and let all the renegade coaches show the IHSAA how it is done.  Do you really wonder why we can't get something as simple as wrestle-backs?  

[Y2CJ41]

I'd still put the burdon on the IHSAA.  They took a huge step in 1995-96 by starting the team state series.  The original concept worked very well for a while.  However, as these line-up problems arose, the IHSAA should have looked at ways to improve it rather than just blame the coaches.  Honestly, other than eliminating team semistate, how is this year's tournament any different (i.e., better) than it was in 1995-96?

The fatal flaw with the system was holding it during the same time as the individual series.  The IHSAA put coaches in the bad situation of having to choose between what was best for their own program/kids or keeping a flawed system going as is.  Had the IHSAA listened to the complaints, they could have made changes to improve it that would have been better for more programs and wrestlers.

Why didn't the IHSWCA do anything the past four years to save team state or try to restructure it?  Why did the coaches association not do anything about the issues of teams sending JV kids to team regional/semi-state when they were told time after time that team state was in jeopardy if this continued?  Instead the "leaders" just sat on their hands and let this happen.  Our "leadership" didn't step up when they were needed and this is exactly why we don't get crap from the IHSAA. 

[Charger wrestling dad]

I have read both post on the subject of team state, and not sure what to think. But here are my thoughts if anyone cares.

1> I told my sons growing up that wrestling makes men out of boys, you will learn leadership, discipline, respect for yourself and others.

2> I can't imagine as a coach( which I am not) not wanting to do my best and push my team to do their best.

3> I watched my sons team push them selves last night only to lose to a very strong Penn team, the pride I saw in them being there and us parents on how well they did. Then watch a under ranked East Noble team step up and give it a go pushing Penn farther then they thought they would be.

4> I challenge anyone to tell those three teams East Noble, Penn and Memorial that team state does not count or mean anything. I can't comment on Culver becuase I did not see them to busy watching my team.

5> If wrestlers don't think it means anything or they don't have a chance it would be because their Leaders (coaches) told them that.

6> I am ashamed of the things that are being said on these topics about coaches, as a adult  we should know that tearing people down in public usually does nothing to fix the problem

7> IF these coaches did as suggested, throwing these meets, will have to look themselves in the face every time they look in the mirror and in the faces of the young men that they are in charge of. Let their  conscious be their judge.

[KarlHungus]

I find it distressing that we still have leaders in the coaching association that want to affix the blame for "Indiana's wrestling woes" on the IHSAA.

I was recently at an Indiana Football Coach's Association REGIONAL meeting where information was passed on to coaches that the IHSAA is currently very concerned with some coaches and programs taking the summer open workout rules to far.  The IHSAA threw the issue back on the IFCA leadership and said do something about it or they will.  It was discussed among the membership at the regional level that our response should be to propose a maximum number of days that programs can practice in the summer.  If the coaches association fails to do anything and lets renegade program flaunt the rules, the IHSAA will severely limit the summer rules.  The IHSAA wants the coaches to fix their own problems and not get involved.  It will be only if the coaches don't fix it that the IHSAA will get involved.

[aoberlin]

Do you really wonder why we can't get something as simple as wrestle-backs?  

Really??? Joe is exactly right wrestle-backs are simple.  From my understanding the association was only allowed to present one thing every year and they presented wrestle-backs like 5 years in row and got turned down.  SERIOUSLY?  This pisses me off to no end.  Not at the association but at the IHSAA.  Why does this have to be difficult? I'll tell you why, the IHSAA makes it that way.  Don't kid yourself they don't want to work with us.  We can all wear slacks instead of jeans.  We can even present ourselves in a unified professional manner.  It isn't going to matter.  It is a basketball state.  Every year at this time it angers me to see good kids seasons cut short because the IHSAA has to be stubborn.

The IHSAA wants the coaches to fix their own problems and not get involved.  It will be only if the coaches don't fix it that the IHSAA will get involved.

Sorry Karl this statement may be true for football but this doesn't hold any water with wrestling.  I would say the coaches tried to fix wrestle-backs but they got no where with it.  

The bottom line is the IHSAA doesn't understand wrestling and doesn't want to.  Sure they think we are a bunch of unorganized rednecks.  But I would rather be that than a bunch of tie wearing basketball fans.

[KarlHungus]

Sorry Karl this statement may be true for football but this doesn't hold any water with wrestling.  I would say the coaches tried to fix wrestle-backs but they got no where with it. 

The bottom line is the IHSAA doesn't understand wrestling and doesn't want to.  Sure they think we are a bunch of unorganized rednecks.  But I would rather be that than a bunch of tie wearing basketball fans.

I would rather not play the victim and try changing strategy instead

[Y2CJ41]

Sorry Karl this statement may be true for football but this doesn't hold any water with wrestling.  I would say the coaches tried to fix wrestle-backs but they got no where with it.  

The bottom line is the IHSAA doesn't understand wrestling and doesn't want to.  Sure they think we are a bunch of unorganized rednecks.  But I would rather be that than a bunch of tie wearing basketball fans.

The IHSAA warned the IHSWCA numerous times about coaches bringing JV teams to team regional/semi-state.  They warned us and warned us....the IHSWCA did nothing and now team state is gone.  The IHSAA wants to work with well organized, well respected coaches associations, not a bunch of renegade coaches that will spite them at every turn.

[KarlHungus]

Really??? Joe is exactly right wrestle-backs are simple.  From my understanding the association was only allowed to present one thing every year and they presented wrestle-backs like 5 years in row and got turned down.  SERIOUSLY?  This pisses me off to no end.  Not at the association but at the IHSAA.  Why does this have to be difficult? I'll tell you why, the IHSAA makes it that way.  Don't kid yourself they don't want to work with us.  We can all wear slacks instead of jeans.  We can even present ourselves in a unified professional manner.  It isn't going to matter.  It is a basketball state.  Every year at this time it angers me to see good kids seasons cut short because the IHSAA has to be stubborn.

I would hate to have my kid coached by you....giving up and accepting the status quo....Just kidding.   I agree that the IHSAA has been reluctant to accept changes in wrestling but they approved class soccer...another "minor" sport.  Cross country coaches are currently mulling over major changes in the state tournament series and if they come together and present it, I would bet the IHSAA will approve their changes. Why?  I'm not positive but I would bet that these sports have more then 33 percent of their schools in the association.  I also bet that the IHSAA has to deal with far fewer ethical issues in either of these sports.  It's kinda like teaching middle school kids....the kids that follow the rules and do what the teacher asks get much more leeway than the students that are waiting for the teacher to turn her back so they can throw a spit wad

[aoberlin]

The IHSAA warned the IHSWCA numerous times about coaches bringing JV teams to team regional/semi-state.  They warned us and warned us....the IHSWCA did nothing and now team state is gone.  The IHSAA wants to work with well organized, well respected coaches associations, not a bunch of renegade coaches that will spite them at every turn.

I wish I could take this approach to my job.  "Hey look that looks like it is broke.  Should we fix it?  Nah we don't care for those people so why bother, lets set them up for failure, who cares if some kids get hurt in the process"  I would and should be fired in a second.

The thing is it is not about the coaches and the association.  It is supposed to be about the kids.  So why would the IHSAA not want to work with us to improve the sport for the kids.

Yes you are going to get coaches that do stuff out of spite because of things that have happened in the past.  It doesn't make it right and doesn't make what the IHSAA is doing right either.

I would agree with Karl in changing strategies.  You have to try something.  But it really really seems that they don't want to work with us.

[Y2CJ41]

I wish I could take this approach to my job.  "Hey look that looks like it is broke.  Should we fix it?  Nah we don't care for those people so why bother, lets set them up for failure, who cares if some kids get hurt in the process"  I would and should be fired in a second.

The thing is it is not about the coaches and the association.  It is supposed to be about the kids.  So why would the IHSAA not want to work with us to improve the sport for the kids.

Yes you are going to get coaches that do stuff out of spite because of things that have happened in the past.  It doesn't make it right and doesn't make what the IHSAA is doing right either.

I would agree with Karl in changing strategies.  You have to try something.  But it really really seems that they don't want to work with us.

The IHSAA would love to work with us, but why should they work with the coaches if they are going to spite them every time they don't get their way.  Why would you want to work with a bunch of coaches that are trying to find ways to skirt the rules at every turn? 

Which kid are you more likely to work with?
Billy who works hard, does everything you ask of him, always on time.
Sammy who is habitually late, doesn't listen to the coaches, always spiting the coaches and thinks they are out to get him

[aoberlin]

I would agree with both Joe and Karl on your going to get more with honey.  But you would think an organization like the IHSAA would be bigger than petty issues with coaches and try to do what is best for the kids.

I really can't state it enough.  It is supposed to be about the kids.

So what is the answer?  A new association?  Dress code?  Lynch mobbing any rogue coaches? 

[Y2CJ41]

I would agree with both Joe and Karl on your going to get more with honey.  But you would think an organization like the IHSAA would be bigger than petty issues with coaches and try to do what is best for the kids.

I really can't state it enough.  It is supposed to be about the kids.

So what is the answer?  A new association?  Dress code?  Lynch mobbing any rogue coaches? 

Restructuring the IHSWCA and they being on the forefront of addressing ethical and other issues that try to skirt the IHSAA rules.  When a coach teeters on an ethical issue someone within the IHSWCA addresses their concerns to them and reminds them that while it may help their team in the short term, that in the long term it is not good for our sport.

[KarlHungus]

So what is the answer?  A new association?  YES!  Dress code? MINOR.... Lynch mobbing any rogue coaches?  DeKalb county would be without coaches....can't do that.

[mrsmith]

I think your coach Peck may have made the truest statement of all. Your Team State tournament is meaningless. It consist of a few private schools vs a few public schools who will do anything including "bend the rules"  to get down to the final 8. Pretty meaningless. Your state organization did the best thing. Scrapped it ! It is were it should be a mid season challenge between some elite teams who have gained an unfair advantage over the majority of the competition by one means  or another. Enjoy your New Holiday Tournament for years to come. 

Be specific...name names...who are you accusing and what is your evidence?

[tenaciuos1]

Yep Mrs. Mith, it is a fairy tale you speak of. 

[Thornton]

Don't be so cryptic...What school(s) are you referring to? What is your evidence of improper behavior?

[phscoach]

Restructuring the IHSWCA and they being on the forefront of addressing ethical and other issues that try to skirt the IHSAA rules.  When a coach teeters on an ethical issue someone within the IHSWCA addresses their concerns to them and reminds them that while it may help their team in the short term, that in the long term it is not good for our sport.

OK I'll bite.  Suppose for a moment that you are heading the ethics committee for the IHSWCA.  How would you address a coach who makes in your estimation an ethical mistake by sending a JV lineup to team regional?  What power or control does the IHSWCA have currently to correct/punish/admonish/penalize this coach?  

I agree with you that there needs to be more ethical behavior among coaches as a whole, but how can this group that you yourself classify as fairly helpless do anything to a coach that would be of any substance?  If the IHSAA would grant this group the ability to recommend action that the IHSAA would follow through on, then I think it's worth beating this drum.  But if we are acting as an association only, what teeth do we have to make these penalties stick?

Right now, the association could deny a coach the ability to have his team participate in the Classed Duals, deny the offending team Academic All-State nominations, or release a statement condemning the actions of the offending coach.  In the first two cases, the kids lose.  Not a big fan of punishing kids for adult mistakes.  The third amounts to a "No, No, You don't do that!" which means little.

What if the offending coach is not a member of the association?  Would they be subject to the same penalties?

In theory, this sounds like a good idea.  But it will take a lot more ideas to make something like this work.

[KarlHungus]

OK I'll bite.  Suppose for a moment that you are heading the ethics committee for the IHSWCA.  How would you address a coach who makes in your estimation an ethical mistake by sending a JV lineup to team regional?  What power or control does the IHSWCA have currently to correct/punish/admonish/penalize this coach?  

I agree with you that there needs to be more ethical behavior among coaches as a whole, but how can this group that you yourself classify as fairly helpless do anything to a coach that would be of any substance?  If the IHSAA would grant this group the ability to recommend action that the IHSAA would follow through on, then I think it's worth beating this drum.  But if we are acting as an association only, what teeth do we have to make these penalties stick?

Right now, the association could deny a coach the ability to have his team participate in the Classed Duals, deny the offending team Academic All-State nominations, or release a statement condemning the actions of the offending coach.  In the first two cases, the kids lose.  Not a big fan of punishing kids for adult mistakes.  The third amounts to a "No, No, You don't do that!" which means little.

What if the offending coach is not a member of the association?  Would they be subject to the same penalties?

In theory, this sounds like a good idea.  But it will take a lot more ideas to make something like this work.

I agree with you that the IHSWCA currently has no system in place to address ethical issues with programs and coaches.  That is why the organization needs to be restructured to include an ethics section.  

I have coached football for nearly 20 years and each region has an ethics adviser.  The current ethics adviser would have no problem privately calling out a coach who was in breach of the established code of ethics.  If that coach continued to skirt the rules, he would probably then contact the schools ADs and explain what an embarrassment their coach was in the wrestling community.

I agree that punishments that would hurt the kids is a last step.  Imagine how long Joe Caprino or any coach would be employed if their ethical behavior prevented their kids from competing for state title.  I know I would be asked to submit my letter of resignation.

If the Classed Duals state tournament gets off the ground and becomes something special like I think it could, imagine how long a coach would be employed if their team was invited but could not attend because their coach failed to pay their 25 bucks to become a member.