Does anyone really wonder why we don't have team state?

[charger.dad]

What a joke for so-called leaders in our state to do this!!!!!  

Anyone else notice that Kayla Miracle didn't wrestle at team regionals?  And the other Culver Military selective forfeits?  We are a laughing stock to the IHSAA and rightfully so.  

i noticed....i was really looking forward to seeing her and connor knapp wrestle......so what happened there?.....did they not wrestle her because east noble already had the meet won?.....was she even there?.....i didn't see her......did they not want to take a chance on her getting beat or injured for no gain?......

[KarlHungus]

She was there but not in uniform

[charger.dad]

She was there but not in uniform

if that was the case, was culver not there to try to win the match?....why would you sit out one of your best wrestlers at team regionals?

[Thornton]

I think your coach Peck may have made the truest statement of all. Your Team State tournament is meaningless. It consist of a few private schools vs a few public schools who will do anything including "bend the rules"  to get down to the final 8. Pretty meaningless. Your state organization did the best thing. Scrapped it ! It is were it should be a mid season challenge between some elite teams who have gained an unfair advantage over the majority of the competition by one means  or another. Enjoy your New Holiday Tournament for years to come. 

Be specific...name names...who are you accusing and what is your evidence?

[JakeandBreighton]

I can see both sides, I know of at least one match up in out regional, that is the first round match to go to ss. Hire come they can't hold team regionals the Wednesday after individual state?

[roughneck133]

My biggest issue with sitting your varsity and taking forfeits other than all  other reasons everyone else is posting about is what is it teaching your kids. That it is ok to lay down when things are going to be tough. What happens when the real world comes a long and slaps them in the face. This would have been an easy way to show your kids that you still go after something even if it is going to tough. I am an assistant coach for East Noble and we were excited about the challenge of facing Penn cause as a staff we talk about facing challenges head on and going after it. It's WRESTLING anything can happen. I was proud of our team last night and how they went head to head with Penn last night. Also are team grew after that match realizing that they can compete at a high level. If anything it has given our 12 wrestlers that made it to saturday even more courage cause they have seen they can compete at a high level and battle and win even if the challenge is tough and even if we are suppose to lose. Also this is a chance and opportunity to grow our program and be even better in the future. I think there are more advantages as a program and as an individual for your kids to wrestle in the team regional than against it.

Andy Uhl

[pin2win]

Pin2win;

It can be a slight advantage BUT every tourney kids gets FF's our Byes.  Does that mean those kids don't deserve the win?  Jennings is a well conditioned team and I doubt this played much into match.  Congrats to the Jennings team on a great season and a big win over Connersville. 

I am not trying to make any statement against Warren Central they cam to wrestle and they did and preformed well an moved on great job. I am simply trying to understand why new castle would not bring a team or allow another team to go in their place and buy doing so since this format is not the same as a large tourney where kids get FF and byes as there is more than one round it is not single elimination and there is more opportunity for equal amount of rest. Those usually don't start in the final round. But this is getting of track if your aunt had balls shed be your uncle its just that New Castle did not do right by the tourny nor the teams involved

[TripleB]

I am not trying to make any statement against Warren Central they cam to wrestle and they did and preformed well an moved on great job. I am simply trying to understand why new castle would not bring a team or allow another team to go in their place and buy doing so since this format is not the same as a large tourney where kids get FF and byes as there is more than one round it is not single elimination and there is more opportunity for equal amount of rest. Those usually don't start in the final round. But this is getting of track if your aunt had balls shed be your uncle its just that New Castle did not do right by the tourny nor the teams involved

I gurantee if the panthers win last nite, ur not on here complaining.

[charger.dad]

My biggest issue with sitting your varsity and taking forfeits other than all  other reasons everyone else is posting about is what is it teaching your kids. That it is ok to lay down when things are going to be tough. What happens when the real world comes a long and slaps them in the face. This would have been an easy way to show your kids that you still go after something even if it is going to tough. I am an assistant coach for East Noble and we were excited about the challenge of facing Penn cause as a staff we talk about facing challenges head on and going after it. It's WRESTLING anything can happen. I was proud of our team last night and how they went head to head with Penn last night. Also are team grew after that match realizing that they can compete at a high level. If anything it has given our 12 wrestlers that made it to saturday even more courage cause they have seen they can compete at a high level and battle and win even if the challenge is tough and even if we are suppose to lose. Also this is a chance and opportunity to grow our program and be even better in the future. I think there are more advantages as a program and as an individual for your kids to wrestle in the team regional than against it.

Andy Uhl

East Noble brought it last night! They wrestled Penn every bit as tough as we did and darn near pulled it out. Good luck to all the EN kids at regionals.

[jchas]

No body told HSE and Cathedral that team state does not matter.  That was the most exciting and hard fought
match I have ever been to!
I can tell you for sure Team is important to every guy on these teams.  Maybe that is why they have the programs they do.

[roughneck133]

East Noble brought it last night! They wrestled Penn every bit as tough as we did and darn near pulled it out. Good luck to all the EN kids at regionals.

EN, EM, and Penn all came to wrestle last and it made it for some great duals! Thanks for the props charger.dad. EM looked tough last night and good luck to you guys as well.

Andy Uhl

[munges]

Anyone who was at Adams Central last night should be sick Team State is going away. Great matches highly contested the entire time. It is sad to see the team state series going away.

[Coach McCormick]

I can certainly understand from the spectator's point of view why someone might not understand why a school would bring a partial team to Team Regionals.  I would point out though that the first flaw in the system is that an "individually" based scoring system was being applied to a "team" concept at sectionals.  Just because a team won sectionals, doesn't necessarily mean they are a solid dual meet team.  There are numerous examples through the years of teams who won team titles in post season events but really only had a handful of good wrestlers in their lineup.  I don't say this to be disrespectful, but it is simply a reality.  

A good solution to this team dilemma would have been for the IHSAA to implement a "classed" Team Duals event like many other states have in place.  In Indiana we are assuming that schools of all sizes and demographics can compete year in and year out at an extremely high caliber, and this just isn't realistic to expect.  With respect to "team", our sport is no different than say... football.  Do we expect our small (1A) schools to play against our state's large (5A) schools in the post season?  Most people would immediately say, "well of course not... the big schools have more kids, better weight rooms, nicer facilites, etc, etc."  But for those exact same reasons, it is almost impossible for a small/mid size school wrestling team to compete with their large school counterparts each year.

Head coaches (and some assistants) of teams also understand the myriad of issues that can quickly arise with a team as well such as illness, injury, academic issues, etc, etc.  during a season.  Again, due to school size and demographics, not all teams have the luxury of having a full JV squad to fill holes in the varsity lineup when adversity strikes a team.  It is easy to make assumptions about why a team wasn't at full strength, but again, until you have been at the helm of a high school team, I don't think it is fair to pass judgement.

Coach McCormick

[pin2win]

I gurantee if the panthers win last nite, ur not on here complaining.

You are more than likely spot on correct and I would also assert that if we would have got New Castle first who ever lost to us would be or if the cubs were int the same situation you would be LOL.  By the way tell your 152 keep up the hard work he showed BC 152 is a very beatable opponent for him. I would love to see that happen for him.

[KarlHungus]

From another thread:

WaltHarris
Regional Qualifier


Cool Points: -11
[wahoo] [boo]
Posts: 92

My post here isn't about last night, or the young man in Riley hospital, or team state.  It is more just about our current situation in general with the IHSWCA.   I coached for three decades, but have been retired from coaching for many years.  Looking back, I think my generation of coaches in the 70s, 80s, 90s really let you guys down.  And I apologize for that.
  
When I coached, the IHSWCA was really flimsy because we had virtually no need for it.  Honest to god, the sole reason to be an IHSWCA member in the 1980s was because only members could access the food in the coaches’ hospitality room at State in Market Square.  And being president of the IHSWCA back then was like being Grand Marshall of the Arbor Day parade: meaningless.

It was not until the mid 90s that the IHSWCA really began to matter.  And itmattered because the IHSAA began asking questions about the sport of wrestling.  Then over the past decade, it appears that rather than be politically savvy and attempt to win over the IHSAA so that we did not reach a breaking point, our IHSWCA leadership has done just the opposite.  And I am fully aware that the IHSAA personalities did not help at all, either!   The wrestling community’s relationship with the IHSAA has been weaponized.  

Perhaps worst of all, the legacy that coaches from my generation left you guys with is an impotent IHSWC that in a sadly weaponized environment, has been totally unable to respond.  Sometimes, it is only through the long lens of history that one can see the regretful cascade of events which leads to a specific negative outcome.  Once again, I apologize to you guys coaching today.  Many of us former guys failed you in this regard.

Report to moderator     )
I am older than dirt.

[formerwrestler]

I have read this thread and am disappointed in the lack of confidence in Coach Peckinpaugh in particular and coaches in general.

I have known Coach Peckinpaugh since the late 70's and aerly 80's and he has never given me any reason to question his honesty, integrity, or commitment to his wrestlers and the sport of wrestling.

His explanation mentioned that at best he only had 10-11 wrestlers in the line-up most of the season.  Given the challenges we coaches face daily, I don't think it is too far of a stretch to see why only 6 wrestlers were available for the regional, last evening. 

We all know that one wrestler is ill and unable to compete.  There are a multitude of other reasons why the others were not able to compete.  A few that quickly come to mind are:  skin issue(s) that have not satisfied the IHSAA minimum treatment time periods, but will by the time the individual regional comes around on Saturday,  other health or injuries,  school or team discipline issues, and/or academic issues.   

I don't blame Coach Peckinpaugh one bit for not detailing his team issues on a public forum.  His explanation is good enough for me and should be for you all.  After all, we are talking about kids, not adults.  I can appreciate his desire to keep the issue(s) private.  He obviously cares for his kids and has given countless hours to Indiana high school wrestling.  Can't we give him the benefit of doubt without all this crap on a discussion board.

Some of you people on here continue to amaze me.

Best of luck to all this weekend.

formerwrestler
aka Cal Warner Tipton HS.

[Little Giant 91]

I agree with Cal Warner. I have known Coach Peck for a long time, and he has always worked hard to promote his program and the sport, despite what some "know-it alls" seem to think. I take his word at face value.
That said, the original post by Y2 was correct in many ways. From the beginning of the team dual state series, teams / coaches have sent JV teams to wrestle highly ranked opponents, sat out wrestlers to avoid tough matches, etc. We (the coaches) have been warned MANY times by the IHSAA that this shed our sport in a negative light in their eyes and were warned / threatened not to do it. Year after year, coaches continued to do this, claiming that it was best for their team , program, whatever. Our sport has struggled to move forward in Indiana because we cannot come together for the good of the sport. There have always been coaches who "can't see the forest for the trees", so to speak. When I was a head coach, we were ecstatic to advance our smaller (700 students) school and wrestle the largest high school in the state (4000+) at the time in the team regional. Our youngsters battled hard and did not back down, and it was a great experience for them and our program.  Now, like it or not, we are going back to the "old" tournament format, likely for good. We had something good, but we screwed it up. You can blame the IHSAA if you want, but the wrestling programs of Indiana (at least a few of them) did not help ourselves when we had a chance, if you ask me.

[grecoref]

Well I know one of the wrestlers for NC was with his little brother who is going to have heart surgery at Riley today pretty good exscuse for not going!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My prayers to you and your family Mr. Campbell.

Tom Clark

[fwrestler]

I don't understand the idea of not wanting to get a wrestler injured.  That's why we train these young men: to compete.  Not to take a dive which is the cowardly lesson that these coaches are teaching the young men when they send their JV or only a few kids.  Got no respect for any coach that pulls this crap.  A lot of courageous young men laid it on the line last night even though they have to wrestle Saturday.  In fact a couple of top ranked wrestlers took a loss and I dare say they aren't sitting around boo hooing today.  A real classless act by a few tarnish us all.

Well for instance, when I was a freshman, a senior who was highly ranked in the state injured his arm pretty badly at team regionals.  He competed in the individual regional tournament with a cast on his arm and lost in the first round to one of my teammates, who he would've beaten handily had he been healthy.  It was pretty sad to watch.  But I agree with you for the most part, as an unforeseen injury can happen at any time and shouldn't keep teams from competing in any format.  However, it sounds like New Castle shouldn't be blamed for what happened.  I wasn't aware they had so few kids in their starting lineup, and there's no reason to risk wrestling kids who are sick, nicked up or attending to family situations.

[Coach McCormick]

Although I am flattered that some people think the IHSWCA has massive power in Indiana, I would point out that the IHSWCA is an association of volunteers that offers programs for wrestlers and coaches across our state and acts as a liaison between the IHSAA and the Indiana wrestling community (at the IHSAA's leisure).  Please do not lay Indiana's wrestling woes on the back of the IHSWCA.  I would re-emphasize that the IHSWCA is not in charge of the IHSAA.  Although we make proposals and suggestions to the IHSAA from time to time, the IHSAA does not have to use our suggestions and many times they do not.  We (the IHSWCA) cannot control the IHSAA, nor is it our responsibility to do so.

I do find it disturbing that people are permitted to degrade other people, and organizations, on a public forum without even signing their name to it.  I also find it humorous that some "contributors" to this forum try to bolster their status with testimonials of how they coached for long periods of time (thereby insinuating that they must have been good at what they did) just so they can be critical of others' efforts.  The easiest thing to do is simply sign your real name to your comments and then other readers will be able to assess if your criticism is accurate and/or warranted.  What I have typically found though is that those who are most critical were/are the least involved and simply enjoy sitting on the sidelines (with a fashionable screen name) and spend their time being critical of others rather than attempt to make a positive contribution themselves.  

I, for one, would like to thank the IHSWCA officers and regional representatives for their expertise and hours of volunteer service on behalf of the wrestlers and coaches across our state.  This is a hard working and committed group of gentlemen who many times put the needs of their own team(s) aside in an attempt to offer opportunities for other programs around the state.

Coach McCormick

[KarlHungus]

Although I am flattered that some people think the IHSWCA has massive power in Indiana, I would point out that the IHSWCA is an association of volunteers that offers programs for wrestlers and coaches across our state and acts as a liaison between the IHSAA and the Indiana wrestling community (at the IHSAA's leisure).  Please do not lay Indiana's wrestling woes on the back of the IHSWCA.  I would re-emphasize that the IHSWCA is not in charge of the IHSAA.  Although we make proposals and suggestions to the IHSAA from time to time, the IHSAA does not have to use our suggestions and many times they do not.  We (the IHSWCA) cannot control the IHSAA, nor is it our responsibility to do so.

I do find it disturbing that people are permitted to degrade other people, and organizations, on a public forum without even signing their name to it.  I also find it humorous that some "contributors" to this forum try to bolster their status with testimonials of how they coached for long periods of time (thereby insinuating that they must have been good at what they did) just so they can be critical of others' efforts.  The easiest thing to do is simply sign your real name to your comments and then other readers will be able to assess if your criticism is accurate and/or warranted.  What I have typically found though is that those who are most critical were/are the least involved and simply enjoy sitting on the sidelines (with a fashionable screen name) and spend their time being critical of others rather than attempt to make a positive contribution themselves. 

I, for one, would like to thank the IHSWCA officers and regional representatives for their expertise and hours of volunteer service on behalf of the wrestlers and coaches across our state.  This is a hard working and committed group of gentlemen who many times put the needs of their own team(s) aside in an attempt to offer opportunities for other programs around the state.

Coach McCormick

Who does need to shoulder the blame for "Indiana's wrestling woes?"  The IHSAA?

[Boot]

Although I am flattered that some people think the IHSWCA has massive power in Indiana, I would point out that the IHSWCA is an association of volunteers that offers programs for wrestlers and coaches across our state and acts as a liaison between the IHSAA and the Indiana wrestling community (at the IHSAA's leisure).  Please do not lay Indiana's wrestling woes on the back of the IHSWCA.  I would re-emphasize that the IHSWCA is not in charge of the IHSAA.  Although we make proposals and suggestions to the IHSAA from time to time, the IHSAA does not have to use our suggestions and many times they do not.  We (the IHSWCA) cannot control the IHSAA, nor is it our responsibility to do so.

I do find it disturbing that people are permitted to degrade other people, and organizations, on a public forum without even signing their name to it.  I also find it humorous that some "contributors" to this forum try to bolster their status with testimonials of how they coached for long periods of time (thereby insinuating that they must have been good at what they did) just so they can be critical of others' efforts.  The easiest thing to do is simply sign your real name to your comments and then other readers will be able to assess if your criticism is accurate and/or warranted.  What I have typically found though is that those who are most critical were/are the least involved and simply enjoy sitting on the sidelines (with a fashionable screen name) and spend their time being critical of others rather than attempt to make a positive contribution themselves.  

I, for one, would like to thank the IHSWCA officers and regional representatives for their expertise and hours of volunteer service on behalf of the wrestlers and coaches across our state.  This is a hard working and committed group of gentlemen who many times put the needs of their own team(s) aside in an attempt to offer opportunities for other programs around the state.

Coach McCormick

A lot of times when a thread starts making personal attacks it gets shut down, interesting that when the moderator is one of them making attacks it's ok. Agree or not, let's move on and act like adults instead of being poor role models for kids, and we wonder why they yell at refs.

[MatChick76]

I think your coach Peck may have made the truest statement of all. Your Team State tournament is meaningless. It consist of a few private schools vs a few public schools who will do anything including "bend the rules"  to get down to the final 8. Pretty meaningless. Your state organization did the best thing. Scrapped it ! It is were it should be a mid season challenge between some elite teams who have gained an unfair advantage over the majority of the competition by one means  or another. Enjoy your New Holiday Tournament for years to come.  

The Team State torunament became meaningless when teams began doing things like substituting their JV lineups rather than wrestling their varsity kids ~ or how about at Team State when several of the schools within 30 miles of the event bring very low crowds.   It's also been my observation that if a team or program isn't winning, they begin to point fingers at teams/programs who are.  I, for one, will miss Team State, but I'm looking forward to the new tournament.  Someone made a comment to me at Team Regionals last night that they were glad that MD moved up in class to give other small schools a chance...ironically, since Team State was not classed, size has never had anything to do with it.

If a wrestler was injured, or nursing an injury, then I can see sitting him/her because it is just a few days before Ind. Regionals...however...just sitting them as an "in case" (they "might" get hurt) is insane....they might get hurt the 1st round at Regionals as well.  One thing I think is good about the system, is you may have a team competing that has a Senior who wasn't Varsity at a wieght where the Varsity guy is going on to the Individual Tourney, this will give him an opportunity to wrestle a final match.  My heart always breaks for those Seniors who get knocked out at Sectionals.

[Boot]

I was Ohio's D2 Team State a few weeks back and one of the schools only 6 kids there, and drove all the way from the Cleveland area, nobody questioned them. The kids came, wrestled hard, and won most of the matches they didn't have to forfeit. If Ohio can act with dignity and respect towards other teams, I'm pretty sure we can too.

[GrecoCoach]

Who does need to shoulder the blame for "Indiana's wrestling woes?"  The IHSAA?

I'd still put the burdon on the IHSAA.  They took a huge step in 1995-96 by starting the team state series.  The original concept worked very well for a while.  However, as these line-up problems arose, the IHSAA should have looked at ways to improve it rather than just blame the coaches.  Honestly, other than eliminating team semistate, how is this year's tournament any different (i.e., better) than it was in 1995-96?

The fatal flaw with the system was holding it during the same time as the individual series.  The IHSAA put coaches in the bad situation of having to choose between what was best for their own program/kids or keeping a flawed system going as is.  Had the IHSAA listened to the complaints, they could have made changes to improve it that would have been better for more programs and wrestlers.