My IHSWCA Dual Invite

[mcochran]

I wonder if you could combine 3 sectionals and send a ballot to those teams to vote for their top two or three teams.  A coach could be responsible for tallying the votes.  The idea would be to send the best team to represent them.  We could have coaches that want to be considered do a writeup on their team to be part of the ballot per say.   I would think the coaches would vote honestly.  Each first place vote worth 5, second worth 3 and third worth one.  The highest vote getters in the two classes moves on.

I think this is more of the route we should start considering so that all teams have a stake in the process.  The only thing is the IHSAA probably won't be very flexible with moving Sectional dates.

[AJ]

I agree that it did technically include everyone, I just felt like it would have been a better team series if it would have started in a dual format, rather than have the opening of the Team tournament decided by an individual tournament.  I actually, really enjoyed and supported the team tournament.  My main point here though,  is that I think we need to include all teams that want to participate, in our IHSWCA team series, in order to gain the most approval for it.

Starting the series with tournament scoring was always a concern of mine and an issue I did not like.  However, I do think we need to realize that this is brand new to IHSWCA and it is probably not realistic for this event to be all inclusive during its first year due to the time table involved.  I believe that if we set a goal to get the event where it is all inclusive within a few years than many coaches will understand what the IHSWCA is trying to do and will be more accepting of a first and possibly second year of a non all incluesive tournament because they would understand that the IHWSCA is trying to do this right and is working towards a true team state format.   A few years of this would be better than nothing at all.

[infowrestling]

I think this is more of the route we should start considering so that all teams have a stake in the process.  The only thing is the IHSAA probably won't be very flexible with moving Sectional dates.

I just do not like the idea of basing your Team State meet on last year's performance.  There are factors like, solid JV guys behind a varsity stud, major improvements from underclassmen, and incoming freshmen, that could change the entire outlook of a team.  Let's include everyone, class it, and do it the first week of January.

[KarlHungus]

I just do not like the idea of basing your Team State meet on last year's performance.  There are factors like, solid JV guys behind a varsity stud, major improvements from underclassmen, and incoming freshmen, that could change the entire outlook of a team.  Let's include everyone, class it, and do it the first week of January.

And if it takes 3 years to organize and pull it off, this would be a better route to take IMO.  ADs would be much more likely to support this then trying to get refs and opponents in non invited years and then cancelling contracts if a school gets invited

[infowrestling]

And if it takes 3 years to organize and pull it off, this would be a better route to take IMO.  ADs would be much more likely to support this then trying to get refs and opponents in non invited years and then cancelling contracts if a school gets invited

AGREED!

[Smooth34]

Yeah, I mean, who would want to go see Crown Point, Perry Meridian, Yorktown, Reitz, Cathedral, or Mater Dei right?

Perry is at Bellmont.

[Smooth34]

I just do not like the idea of basing your Team State meet on last year's performance.  There are factors like, solid JV guys behind a varsity stud, major improvements from underclassmen, and incoming freshmen, that could change the entire outlook of a team.  Let's include everyone, class it, and do it the first week of January.

BINGO

[GrecoCoach]

I just do not like the idea of basing your Team State meet on last year's performance.  There are factors like, solid JV guys behind a varsity stud, major improvements from underclassmen, and incoming freshmen, that could change the entire outlook of a team.  Let's include everyone, class it, and do it the first week of January.

I definitely want an all-in, classed team series.  However, what you are expecting here is impossible.  I cannot see this all happening in one week.  The closest proposal I've seen to this still has mutliple-school duals on Tuesday and Thursday along with the final meet on Saturday.  That will count as 6 weigh-in points out of our 18 allowed!  Look at your own schedule and try to find 3 tournaments you want to drop for this.  Most, if not all, coaches won't do it.

I think we can get to something that is perfect eventually.  But it will take time to develop it into what we want.

[infowrestling]

I definitely want an all-in, classed team series.  However, what you are expecting here is impossible.  I cannot see this all happening in one week.  The closest proposal I've seen to this still has mutliple-school duals on Tuesday and Thursday along with the final meet on Saturday.  That will count as 6 weigh-in points out of our 18 allowed!  Look at your own schedule and try to find 3 tournaments you want to drop for this.  Most, if not all, coaches won't do it.

I think we can get to something that is perfect eventually.  But it will take time to develop it into what we want.

1. I'm pretty sure that the IHSWCA said that the IHSAA will allow extra weigh ins for the tournament.  Therefore, I wouldn't think that we would need to drop anything other than what we have the week that this goes on.
2. The proposal that I looked at from Y2 included 3 matches on a Tuesday, and 2 matches on a Thursday.  I have observed several teams wrestling 3 matches on a week night, and in the current format we wrestle 2 matches on a Wednesday.  I don't see the number of matches on a weekday as that big of a deal, as long as we keep the travel time down.  The finals on a Saturday shouldn't be a problem.

[KarlHungus]

1. I'm pretty sure that the IHSWCA said that the IHSAA will allow extra weigh ins for the tournament.  Therefore, I wouldn't think that we would need to drop anything other than what we have the week that this goes on.
2. The proposal that I looked at from Y2 included 3 matches on a Tuesday, and 2 matches on a Thursday.  I have observed several teams wrestling 3 matches on a week night, and in the current format we wrestle 2 matches on a Wednesday.  I don't see the number of matches on a weekday as that big of a deal, as long as we keep the travel time down.  The finals on a Saturday shouldn't be a problem.

I like this idea.  I could see real potential in the excitement this format could create through the week at a school.  Heck, that's kind of a down period for basketball so you could the attention of school and media.

[GrecoCoach]

1. I'm pretty sure that the IHSWCA said that the IHSAA will allow extra weigh ins for the tournament.  Therefore, I wouldn't think that we would need to drop anything other than what we have the week that this goes on.
2. The proposal that I looked at from Y2 included 3 matches on a Tuesday, and 2 matches on a Thursday.  I have observed several teams wrestling 3 matches on a week night, and in the current format we wrestle 2 matches on a Wednesday.  I don't see the number of matches on a weekday as that big of a deal, as long as we keep the travel time down.  The finals on a Saturday shouldn't be a problem.

1.  The IHSAA also said that the coaches association could hand out trophies to teams based on individual tournament scores.  As soon as it helped their own agenda, they threw that back at us in the newspapers.  I just don't trust anything that the IHSAA "says we can do".  I took it as, if it were a one day event then maybe they'd waive it.  
2.  How are you going to keep the travel time down with multiple classes?  With everyone together there were still teams travelling an hour and a half each direction.  Spreading the teams out will make travel even longer.

 I want the same end result as you, but I don't think it can be realistically done with full support on our first attempt.

[KarlHungus]

I say plan until you think you can get the end result you want.

[infowrestling]

1.  The IHSAA also said that the coaches association could hand out trophies to teams based on individual tournament scores.  As soon as it helped their own agenda, they threw that back at us in the newspapers.  I just don't trust anything that the IHSAA "says we can do".  I took it as, if it were a one day event then maybe they'd waive it.  
2.  How are you going to keep the travel time down with multiple classes?  With everyone together there were still teams travelling an hour and a half each direction.  Spreading the teams out will make travel even longer.

 I want the same end result as you, but I don't think it can be realistically done with full support on our first attempt.

I completely understand that we are all wanting to do what's best for our sport, and some of these questions,we are going to need to work through.

I'm not sure how to deal with travel being an issue.  I think that 1-2 hours travel time would be feasible, although I know not ideal.  There would be much more excitement out of an all in tournament, so if there are time constraints in a one week deal, but it's successful, maybe we can look towards a week and a half or two week proposal after the first year. I believe that if there is success in year one, ADs and Principals will be a lot more likely to support our cause for an extension.

[KarlHungus]

If I knew it meant I had the chance to coach in a true classed dual meet state finals I would buck up and get home at midnight on a school night.

[GrecoCoach]

I say plan until you think you can get the end result you want.

I have some experience with trying to build something from scratch...

When Fishers High School first opened in 2006, I didn't expect us to be a top team in the state that year.  It's taken 5 years to slowly get the program where it is now.  With something new, you have to start smaller than you'd like and build it up gradually.  The other option is to try to do too much and fail miserably.

Plan all you want, but it's unrealistic to coordinate 311 coaches and ADs statewide to all do something the same in one week - especially when we can't even get all of them to fill out a simple survey for the association.

[KarlHungus]

I have some experience with trying to build something from scratch...

When Fishers High School first opened in 2006, I didn't expect us to be a top team in the state that year.  It's taken 5 years to slowly get the program where it is now.  With something new, you have to start smaller than you'd like and build it up gradually.  The other option is to try to do too much and fail miserably.

Plan all you want, but it's unrealistic to coordinate 311 coaches and ADs statewide to all do something the same in one week - especially when we can't even get all of them to fill out a simple survey for the association.

I agree with you coach and I am guessing you had a long term plan with goals both long and short term.  I am also guessing you evaluated each year to see where you stood with respect to your goals and adjusted accordingly.  If the IHSWCA tournament had this type of long term transition plan it might gain support.

[NickS]

Perry is at Bellmont.

OK?

[NickS]

When it comes to running what type of tournament, all-in or one-day, I look no further than what Ohio is doing. As organized and structured their association is, they don't have an all-in tournament. They have over 500 teams in their state and they only invite 24 teams to their state duals. It seems to be working pretty well and it doesn't seem many people are up in arms over how the other non-invited teams are getting the shaft.

[GrecoCoach]

If the IHSWCA tournament had this type of long term transition plan it might gain support.

Chad, here's one possible way I could see it playing out over time:

Long-Term Transition Plan - starts small, but shows how it can grow to include everyone eventually
Side Note:  In order to gain support and interest from the start, it should immediately begin with classing the tournament

2011-12...  Last year of IHSAA Team State
2012-13...  Top 8 teams from 3 classes invited (3 venues holding 4 mats should be easy to find)(pool format, not one-and-done)
2013-14...  Top 16 teams from 3 classes invited (3 venues holding 8 mats will be a little more challenging, but possible)(again, pool format)
2014-15...  Any IHSWCA member school can announce their intent to enter by May 2014.  Teams split into 3 classes and divided into 16 Sectionals for weeknight duals on Tuesday and Thursday.  16 champs per class from each Sectional compete on Saturday for the title.
2015-16 and beyond... More and more teams will become part of it. 

Notes:
*Invitation procedures still need to be figured out.  Not everyone agrees right now about the best way to do it.
*Requiring teams to be IHSWCA members will help the coaches association grow across the state.
*Letting teams choose to be part of it lets developing programs enter whenever they feel ready.  If they think they'll just get slaughtered and it's a waste of their time, then they have eat option of not competing in it.  Support will have to start from those who want it to succeed.
*Teams not involved on that Saturday can participate in another tournament that day.
*Making teams commit to the intentions in May will give the IHSWCA time to organize it and make all the necessary arrangements with venues and officials.

[NickS]

Greco, I like your transition plan. I just think it'll have to be over a longer time frame. Still  good idea though. I like how it'd be required for schools to join the IHSWCA in order for them to be invited.

Something I've been thinking out, instead of having 3-class tournaments. There could be 3 brackets. What I mean by this is, you'd still have the top 8 or 16 teams from 3 classes competing. But instead of being broken up by class, they'd be broken up by returning points.

This is a rough example of what it'd look like with the top 8 for this year.

Invites from 3a Crown Points - 347 Perry Meridian - 254 Evansville Reitz - 244 Cathdral - 241 Roncalli - 225 Merrillville - 212 New Castle - 211 Ben Davis - 194

Invites from 2a Yorktown - 252 Danville - 159 Delphi - 159 Jimtown - 153 Southmont 139 Hanover Central - 139 New Prairie - 135 Culver Academies - 129 Invites from 1a Fountain Central - 173 Alexandria - 160 Adams Central - 136 Mater Dei - 135 South Adams 127 Union County - 103 West Central - 99 Southridge - 88 After you get the invites, rank them 1-24; with 1-8 going to Bracket A, 9-16 going to Bracket B, and 17-24 going to Bracket C. This is what that would look like. Bracket A Crown Point (3a) Perry Meridian (3a) Yorktown (2a) Evansville Reitz (3a) Cathedral (3a) Roncalli (3a) Merrillville (3a) New Castle (2a) Bracket B Ben Davis (3a) Fountain Central (1a) Alexandria (1a) Danville (2a) Delphi (2a) Jimtown (2a) Southmont (2a) Hanover Central (2a) Bracket C Adams Central (1a) New Prairie (2a) Mater Dei (1a) Culver Academies (2a) South Adams (1a) Union County (1a) West Central (1a) Southridge (1a) (I don't know why my post is getting all goofed up. So annoying.) Anyways, what this format does is allows for teams to be matched up better by  talent vs. by just how big your school is. So, some years, you might have a team that competes in Bracket A, then the next year compete in Bracket C. I'm going to stop typing now.

[maolsen]

I think one huge problem with choosing the teams in the tournament based off the year before would be that if a team had a very strong senior class, they might come in, and not be one of the best in the state, and be a part of this tournament, also a team that has put for the effort and improved through out the year wont have a chance to be in said tournament until after a year, even if they improved and maybe deserved it this year.

[infowrestling]

When it comes to running what type of tournament, all-in or one-day, I look no further than what Ohio is doing. As organized and structured their association is, they don't have an all-in tournament. They have over 500 teams in their state and they only invite 24 teams to their state duals. It seems to be working pretty well and it doesn't seem many people are up in arms over how the other non-invited teams are getting the shaft.

Ohio's tournament is working so well, that they are switching to the type of tournament that we are giving up.

[infowrestling]

Greco, I like your transition plan. I just think it'll have to be over a longer time frame. Still  good idea though. I like how it'd be required for schools to join the IHSWCA in order for them to be invited.

Something I've been thinking out, instead of having 3-class tournaments. There could be 3 brackets. What I mean by this is, you'd still have the top 8 or 16 teams from 3 classes competing. But instead of being broken up by class, they'd be broken up by returning points.

This is a rough example of what it'd look like with the top 8 for this year.

Invites from 3a Crown Points - 347 Perry Meridian - 254 Evansville Reitz - 244 Cathdral - 241 Roncalli - 225 Merrillville - 212 New Castle - 211 Ben Davis - 194

Invites from 2a Yorktown - 252 Danville - 159 Delphi - 159 Jimtown - 153 Southmont 139 Hanover Central - 139 New Prairie - 135 Culver Academies - 129 Invites from 1a Fountain Central - 173 Alexandria - 160 Adams Central - 136 Mater Dei - 135 South Adams 127 Union County - 103 West Central - 99 Southridge - 88 After you get the invites, rank them 1-24; with 1-8 going to Bracket A, 9-16 going to Bracket B, and 17-24 going to Bracket C. This is what that would look like. Bracket A Crown Point (3a) Perry Meridian (3a) Yorktown (2a) Evansville Reitz (3a) Cathedral (3a) Roncalli (3a) Merrillville (3a) New Castle (2a) Bracket B Ben Davis (3a) Fountain Central (1a) Alexandria (1a) Danville (2a) Delphi (2a) Jimtown (2a) Southmont (2a) Hanover Central (2a) Bracket C Adams Central (1a) New Prairie (2a) Mater Dei (1a) Culver Academies (2a) South Adams (1a) Union County (1a) West Central (1a) Southridge (1a) (I don't know why my post is getting all goofed up. So annoying.) Anyways, what this format does is allows for teams to be matched up better by  talent vs. by just how big your school is. So, some years, you might have a team that competes in Bracket A, then the next year compete in Bracket C. I'm going to stop typing now.

I just think the returning points system is a terrible idea.  How can you not have Mishawaka or Penn in your 3A class?  We already will have a system forced upon us that rewards teams for having a few outstanding individuals, why would we basically do the same thing with the invite system?

[1Team1Goal]

I'd rather see a system where the best team from each regional by a certain date was invited.  We could base this on a power ranking or add in a  coaches vote too if we needed to  We can do this in a class format or not.  That way it's not based on last years data and it's not on individual tourney points.  It also allows us to spread things out around the state so more teams will have a chance to get involved.

[KarlHungus]

Chad, here's one possible way I could see it playing out over time:

Long-Term Transition Plan - starts small, but shows how it can grow to include everyone eventually
Side Note:  In order to gain support and interest from the start, it should immediately begin with classing the tournament

2011-12...  Last year of IHSAA Team State
2012-13...  Top 8 teams from 3 classes invited (3 venues holding 4 mats should be easy to find)(pool format, not one-and-done)
2013-14...  Top 16 teams from 3 classes invited (3 venues holding 8 mats will be a little more challenging, but possible)(again, pool format)
2014-15...  Any IHSWCA member school can announce their intent to enter by May 2014.  Teams split into 3 classes and divided into 16 Sectionals for weeknight duals on Tuesday and Thursday.  16 champs per class from each Sectional compete on Saturday for the title.
2015-16 and beyond... More and more teams will become part of it. 

Notes:
*Invitation procedures still need to be figured out.  Not everyone agrees right now about the best way to do it.
*Requiring teams to be IHSWCA members will help the coaches association grow across the state.
*Letting teams choose to be part of it lets developing programs enter whenever they feel ready.  If they think they'll just get slaughtered and it's a waste of their time, then they have eat option of not competing in it.  Support will have to start from those who want it to succeed.
*Teams not involved on that Saturday can participate in another tournament that day.
*Making teams commit to the intentions in May will give the IHSWCA time to organize it and make all the necessary arrangements with venues and officials.

I like this much better.  I still think some schools with ADs that are not to sympathetic to wrestling might have an issue with having to change schedules from year to year for teams on the bubble.