My IHSWCA Dual Invite

[NickS]

The "ideas for team state" thread got me thinking about what the IHSWCA can do as an alternative now that the IHSAA is aborting team state. I figured I'd post this in a new thread so it wouldn't get lost.

I compiled all the returning placement points earned throughout the entire state tournament last year. I would use total team points earned, but I just don't have the numbers to go through that. So for this example, I'm sticking with placement points.

For the first year, I would run a 16-team tournament, with a minimum of 5 teams coming from 3 classes. In order to be invited, you have to finish in the top 5 of your class in returning team points; with the 16th invite going to the highest scoring team remaining.

Seeds could be based on returning points, or seed the top 8 and random draw the rest, or just random draw the whole thing. Just throwing options out there.

4-4 team brackets. 1sts going to the 1st place bracket, 2nds going to 2nds, 3rds going to 3rds, and 4ths going to 4ths. You know the drill.

These are who would be invited for this coming year. The points represent the placement points returning. Keep in mind, I used points earned throughout the whole state tournament. Not just the state finals.

Crown Point (3a) 347
Perry Meridian (3a) 254
Yorktown (2a) 252
Evansville Reitz (3a) 244
Cathedral (3a) 241
Roncalli (3a) 225
Merrillville (3a) 212
Fountain Central (1a) 173
Alexandria (1a) 160
Danville (2a) 159
Delphi (2a) 159
Jimtown (2a) 153
Southmont (2a) 139
Adams Central (1a) 136
Mater Dei (1a) 135
South Adams (1a) 127

Would these be the best 16 teams in the state? No. Would this replace the IHSAA team state? No, and it probably never will. But how could you argue against this being the toughest regular season tournament in the state though? 8 or 9 team state caliber teams. 15 of the 16 teams with at least 1 returning state qualifier, and 37 returning state qualifiers total from last year.

I think this would be a good start to what we want as a wrestling community. Thoughts?

[timbo]

I think HSE will have a top 5 team this coming year..   Even based on last year statistics. 

[KarlHungus]

I think Mishawaka, Penn and SB Clay will field competitive teams as well and would like to be included in any state(like) tournament

[Y2CJ41]

The biggest obstacle is as Hungus states figuring a way to get teams like Penn and Mishawaka into the event.  Teams like those(add in Perry, Lawrence North, etc) often have senior laden teams and reload each year with more and more talent.  Maybe a provision where if you finished in the top four in the past two years you automatically get a bid or something like that. 

[GrecoCoach]

Y2 - I think something like that could easily be included in the invite criteria.  I'm not sure what the best way to do that is yet, but I definitely see that as possible.

wcs145 - There is a slight calculation problem with using placement points earned throughout the state series.  Teams with 1 or 2 studs that place at state could earn enough points for their entire team to qualify, even though their overall team could be very weak.  Also, teams that happen to be in a weak sectional would get a lot more points than a team that happens to be in a very tough/competitive sectional.

A point system that is more balanced and a better representation of the overall team is possible - Ohio has been using one for several years.

[gstemv81]

I think the current state placement points are skewed toward the top.  Currently, one state champ equals two fourth placers or eight (!) eighth placers.  Way out of balance.  I think the same is probably true at semistate but I haven't looked into that.  Reweighting the points awarded would seem to fix the whole problem very simply.  Related to GrecoCoach's post, how exactly does Ohio do it?  And is Ohio changing their format?

I hope the IHSWCA Dual Invite is a great idea that the whole wrestling community can get behind.

[Smooth34]

But how could you argue against this being the toughest regular season tournament in the state though?

No Penn, Bellmont, or Mishawaka?

I would rather watch the Bellmont Duals. 

[indyt]

I see a few replies where people are saying the points are skewed and we should not base it on this system due to one or two studs getting all the points and being better than 8 solid kids for example.  Welcome to the "old scoring" system to determine your state champ team of the future.  Team- 6th in the sectional, 4th in regionals, 3rd in semi state, STATE CHAMPS with only a few kids on the team.

[worthmatt]

An IHSWCA Dual Invite to replace the State Team Tournament does sound like a very good idea.  A potential problem would be on when  to hold the invite.  First Saturday of the year would not be a good time to hold it.  It would be good for the teams that get to participate have some meets under their belt.  I could see the third or fourth Saturday in December, as long as it doesn't fall on Christmas, or during winter break as the best possible times to hold the invite.  some of the top teams compete in tough dual tournaments like the Chris Traicoff Meet during the second or third Saturday in December or the 32 team dual tournament in Connersville held during winter break and might have to decide whether or not to pull out of those meets for a proposed IHSWCA Dual Invite.
I do not believe where to have the meet would not be as big of a problem.  A central location like Warren Central, Ben Davis, or Center Grove could host the invite.  Those schools have the size and facilities to host a proposed IHSWCA Dual Invite. 
If the IHSWCA decides to put together an invite to replace the State Team Tournament, I wish you guys well and hope you succeed in making it happen.

[AJ]

I see a few replies where people are saying the points are skewed and we should not base it on this system due to one or two studs getting all the points and being better than 8 solid kids for example.  Welcome to the "old scoring" system to determine your state champ team of the future.  Team- 6th in the sectional, 4th in regionals, 3rd in semi state, STATE CHAMPS with only a few kids on the team.

I think this may be distorting some issues.  Lets be honest, its not like the final 8 teams in the Team Series this year had poor individual tournaments.   

School     Qualifiers    Placers
CP                     8                 5
Bel                    7                 3 
EMD                 6                4
Penn                 6                 2
PM                   5                  4
LN                    4                 2
Ron                  4                 2
Delp                  1               1


These teams had 8 of the finalists and 4 champions. 

CP, Bellmont, EMD, Penn, and PM would have all had a legit shot at winning the state tournament under the old format as well.  It will stay pay off to build an entire team.             

[MattM]

It always seemed to be that looking at the number of state qualifiers per team showed how many studs a team.  While looking at the number of semi-state qualifiers (especially ones with the most first match wins) showed just how well rounded of a team you had that year.  While their will be some skewed data because of weak sectionals/regionals I would say the semi-state numbers would still show the better teams than just looking at final individual state team points.

[NickS]

No Penn, Bellmont, or Mishawaka?

I would rather watch the Bellmont Duals. 

Yeah, I mean, who would want to go see Crown Point, Perry Meridian, Yorktown, Reitz, Cathedral, or Mater Dei right?

[AJ]

The biggest obstacle is as Hungus states figuring a way to get teams like Penn and Mishawaka into the event.  Teams like those(add in Perry, Lawrence North, etc) often have senior laden teams and reload each year with more and more talent.  Maybe a provision where if you finished in the top four in the past two years you automatically get a bid or something like that. 

What about just having a a few wildcard spots that are based off of the current years success.  Could look at the genius ratings.  This could also solve problem for teams that get a few sensational freshmen or a few transfers.

[NickS]

Y2 and Karl - I'd love to have every power wrestling program in the invite. With there only being so few spots open, that's very difficult to do so. Another issue is that it would most likely shun the small schools that could field competitive teams. Isn't that what's your biggest beef with the current state tournament? Plus, this'll allow the flexibility to cycle more teams from year to year. You wouldn't have the same 5-6 teams every time, but still have a very competitive tournament. Isn't this what also was an issue with team state?

Greco and Gstem - Judging by those teams, do any of them look like they only have 1-2 studs? Maybe a re-weighting of the point system would be in order. My brain just isn't that mathematical savvy.  I'm curious to know what Ohio uses too.

But I think using points earned throughout the state tournament is actually good. Teams that were able to do well at weaker sectionals would drop off after regionals and semi-state. Plus teams that had the 1-2 studs still would be behind, because they wouldn't do well as a team at sectionals or regionals.

[KarlHungus]

If i were the 6th best 3a team, I would certainly think I deserved a place in this tournament over most of the rest of the field.  My biggest beef has always been that the IHSAA hands out a team title and doesn't class it like they do in most of the team sports.

[indyt]

AJ, I was only responding to someone saying that we should not base the criteria on a few studs because that does not get the best teams at this tournament.  And, what I have posted has happened before-not exact-so dont ask for the year it happened.  I could use a team from Johnson County this year as a pretty good example as to what I am saying.  Thats all.

[AJ]

AJ, I was only responding to someone saying that we should not base the criteria on a few studs because that does not get the best teams at this tournament.  And, what I have posted has happened before-not exact-so dont ask for the year it happened.  I could use a team from Johnson County this year as a pretty good example as to what I am saying.  Thats all.

I know what you are saying and I do know that happened in the past... I was just trying to point out that the schools that are doing well in the Team Series are also doing well in the Individual Series.  I believe the focus on building a team has lead to the success on the individual series and that if coached continue focusing on team then it will be the exception for a team to win a state title with only a few studs.  These dominant teams are dominating the individual series as well.  Crown Point, Mishawaka,EMD and Bellmont are strong at both levels and I think that is good for the sport.  So I hope coaches continue to build teams because I believe it does pay off at the individual series. 

[indyt]

I am sure we and all others will continue to coach at the best level that we can.  I just dont understand logic sometimes.  I dont understand or see what others see when it comes to the best interest of kids and its upsetting to me.  We will have to move forward.

[AJ]

I am sure we and all others will continue to coach at the best level that we can.  I just dont understand logic sometimes.  I dont understand or see what others see when it comes to the best interest of kids and its upsetting to me.  We will have to move forward.

I agree...  I am just trying to point out the positives that the Team Series has given us and trying to move forward.  I think individual series is better now due to the Team Series.  I dont want the Team Series gone, just tweaked alot, which is why I am glad the IHSWCA is trying to put something together.  And I am sure coaches like you and others will continue to build solid teams from top to bottom and will continue being a great dual team and a great tournament team.

[timbo]

I wonder if you could combine 3 sectionals and send a ballot to those teams to vote for their top two or three teams.  A coach could be responsible for tallying the votes.  The idea would be to send the best team to represent them.  We could have coaches that want to be considered do a writeup on their team to be part of the ballot per say.   I would think the coaches would vote honestly.  Each first place vote worth 5, second worth 3 and third worth one.  The highest vote getters in the two classes moves on.

Combine two individual sectionals and back it up one week.   So basically regional and sectional get combined-----top 4 onto semi-state

State duals are then held the weekend of Sectionals

First year have two class divisions for the state duals

[infowrestling]

If you are trying to put together a tournament that will determine a Team State Champion, and you are trying to get support from all of the schools, in order to one day have the IHSAA adopt the tournament, you have to include everyone.  If you have an invite only based on last years results, with 100 or less teams involved, the majority of the wrestling community is not going to support it.  Why? Because they aren't invited! Why would a team/program want to support something that they never get to participate in?

[AJ]

If you are trying to put together a tournament that will determine a Team State Champion, and you are trying to get support from all of the schools, in order to one day have the IHSAA adopt the tournament, you have to include everyone.  If you have an invite only based on last years results, with 100 or less teams involved, the majority of the wrestling community is not going to support it.  Why? Because they aren't invited! Why would a team/program want to support something that they never get to participate in?

Because it is a start.  We have to start somewhere.  Goal may be for IHSAA to adopt tournament, but not necessarily to adopt the first format.  We will have years to get this right because the IHSAA will be in no hurry to adopt a team series anytime soon.  So we need to start somewhere and then modify the tournament until we get it to very good structire and tournament that truly gives us a Team State Champion.

[infowrestling]

Because it is a start.  We have to start somewhere.  Goal may be for IHSAA to adopt tournament, but not necessarily to adopt the first format.  We will have years to get this right because the IHSAA will be in no hurry to adopt a team series anytime soon.  So we need to start somewhere and then modify the tournament until we get it to very good structire and tournament that truly gives us a Team State Champion.

I understand that we need to start somewhere.  I believe that the main reason the current IHSAA Team State format did not receive as much support as it should have, is that it didn't include everyone!  Why would we start over and do the exact same thing? 

[indyt]

Infowrestling, you bring up valid points, and no disrespect meant but I have to say the team state series did include everyone.  All teams had a chance to win the sectional.  Not that it was the best plan but it did include every single team in Indiana.  Unfortunately for us at Perry, my first four years coaching here we were not good enough to win our sectonal therefore did not get to compete teamwise, beyond that point.

[infowrestling]

Infowrestling, you bring up valid points, and no disrespect meant but I have to say the team state series did include everyone.  All teams had a chance to win the sectional.  Not that it was the best plan but it did include every single team in Indiana.  Unfortunately for us at Perry, my first four years coaching here we were not good enough to win our sectonal therefore did not get to compete teamwise, beyond that point.

I agree that it did technically include everyone, I just felt like it would have been a better team series if it would have started in a dual format, rather than have the opening of the Team tournament decided by an individual tournament.  I actually, really enjoyed and supported the team tournament.  My main point here though,  is that I think we need to include all teams that want to participate, in our IHSWCA team series, in order to gain the most approval for it.