Illegal or legal? DQ at Fargo

[AJ]

Dont know the whole story, but apparently this caused the young man to be DQ'd.  Lot of talk about this on themat.com

What say you??



[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nIkoMtHfdI[/youtube]

[chargersrbeasts]

He shouldn't have been DQ'd because when I've wrestled in freestyle competition I do that same move if a person ends up on my back. It should have been a 5 point throw tho and the period should have ended. If it was a folkstyle tournament then i think he should have been DQ'd

[fearless fly]

There is no need for that kind of violence in wrestling. Give us a warning next time you post something like that AJ.

[legrider33]

I agree with The Fly, No place for it in the sport.

[MattM]

My comments from the national board.

The fact the offensive kids lifted, stopped, and then fell straight down with his full weight falls directly on the defensive kids chest make is look a lot more brutal than the move usually is.  If the move was done as its is shown in most clinics it wouldn't be questioned.  Chertow along with others shows a variation of the move that is done more as a quick throw than a lifting drop.  The kids was probably trying to do it the right way but by going slowly, getting caught up during the lift, and holding onto the leg instead of letting them fly out this resulted in a very painful finish.  Correctly done the move is preformed in a much more flowing pattern with only a slight lift and throwing yourself back with the move instead the high lift and then a drop downward you see in the video.  If done right the defensive kid lands flat and the offensive kid landing along side of him or weight move evenly dispersed.  

It's a move that needs to be taught and practiced correctly by experianced wrestlers.  Just like many potentially dangerous moves If it is just thrown without doing it correctly you could hurt someone as shown above.

[regionrat1]

Perfectly legal under da rules/ good for da sport no/ is a suplay any less dangerous  - no/

[JTM2004]

As a thrower i love this move...i agree it shouldve been a five and period over....and wrestling is a brutal sport alot less brutal than it was in anceint times when you could break fingers and you were naked.....

[GrecoCoach]

If the wrestler had done a back arch, then definitely a 5 period over.  However, he just fell back straight with all his weight landing on the kid's chest and face.  That's pretty brutal.

JTM - wrestling is NOT a brutal sport.  Ultimate fighting is a brutal sport.  We don't allow punching or kicking, why this?  There was zero technique displayed in this move.

[JTM2004]

Wrestling is as brutal as it gets.  Its controlled combat, and if you dont think its brutal watch the Brands brothers.  Did you happen to see Andrew Howes face after competing at the NCAA tournament this year?  Looked pretty brutal

[chargersrbeasts]

Wrestling is a brutal sport and the kids know the risk they run by getting on the mat not saying that kids should try and go and purposely hurt each other but parents and kids know that when their son or daughter or themselves get out there on the mat then things like this can happen.

[JTM2004]

chargersbeasts-  Very well put, i dont think the kid finishing the move had any malicous intent but things do happen in our sport.

[GrecoCoach]

You two are terrible for the image of wrestling.  It makes sense that moms are scared to have their sons wrestle if they listen to you.  Like all sports, injuries can occur even with legal moves.  However, there is a huge difference between "things happen" and "brutality".  If you're teaching your kids to be brutal while wrestling, then please stop coaching.  The Brands were definitely very physical, but they still followed the rules and were penalized if they crossed the line.

JTM - you said it yourself - wrestling is "controlled combat".  That control is what makes wrestling NOT brutal.  Physical and rough, yes.  Brutal, no.

[chargersrbeasts]

I'm not saying that kids should be taught to go out and try and hurt each other i'm just saying moves like this tend to happen during matches and kids shouldn't be put out if clearly they didn't mean to do any damage to their opponent. Ok i'll agree with you grecocoach that wrestling isn't brutal that's not a good word to describe it your description is better, but if it wasn't for the lift then the move wouldn't have got him put out of the tournament.

[bchscoach2]

This move should have been a 5 point throw and period over.  Period.  If we wanted our kids to be ninnies we could send them to play basketball.  Wrestling is a brutal sport of controlled combat.  Do you remember two years ago when a guy in the NCAA national championships had his leg snapped in half and he kept wrestling to win himself a national championship and his quote was, "A broken bone will heal but losing never will."

This is the sport we have attached ourselves to and we need to embrace it.  I love the shirt that they sell at the local tournaments that says "Wrestlers have them, everyone else plays with them"

[JTM2004]

GrecoCoach- I in no way shape or form teach my kids to hurt anybody, but i am an advocate for inflicting pain.  If you put somebody in pain they will do what you want them to.  If  i think that they purposely tried to sideline somebody actions would be taken.  For this poor kid that got disqualified i think he was cheated and that the refs made a harsh call, but they made it.

[allstar123]

we can all agree that wrestling is a tough sport, and in some cases yes it even becomes brutal, however i gotta agree with mattm here. when this move is done properly it is a definite five point move and period over, but this wrestler had no arch whatsoever and flat out landed on the guys chest. i compare this throw to a guy slamming a wrestler attempting to return him to the mat. its a thin line from being controlled to being  illegal.

[fearless fly]

GrecoCoach- I in no way shape or form teach my kids to hurt anybody, but i am an advocate for inflicting pain. 

JTM2004,am I missing something here? I thought maybe I forgot what hurt meant so I got the dictionary out and looked it up. Hurt: 1 a: to inflict with physical pain. Huh, I was right all along and I disagree with your teachings.

[grecoref]

There seems to be a ton of rules experts on here. We should have plenty of referees next year at FS and GR state.

[Drooke]

I'm interested in what your thoughts were concerning the thread topic GrecoRef.  Care to share?

[JTM2004]

Ok Ok fearless fly you got me there maybe i should have looked in my dictionary before i said the word hurt, or maybe i shouldve just said im an advocate of putting someone in intense discomfort.

[Trinedad]

There is a difference between hurt and injured. Hurt is just a temporary pain, Injury take time to heal. Hurting someone in a wrestling match is a good thing, injuring them is not. This is all symantics. I dont really think that anyone in here would be advocating injuring someone intentionally. Atleast I hope they dont, and if so, please get out of the sport.

[grecoref]

This is action is considered brutality.  The referees made the correct call.  This is the Junior level and safety of the ahtletes is paramount. At the Senior level this would be legal. I have confrirmed this opinion with Rick Tucci and Dave Errett-so with my 2 cents that makes the top 3 FS/GR referees in this country calling it illegal. If you wan to call it legal then you have that right....we live in a free country, however you would be incorrect.

Regarding JMT....I know him and I believe his comments were taken out of context.  I do not think that he trains his athletes to  purposely injure another.  He was never trained that way by any of his coaches.

[Lefthanded Headlock]

GrecoCoach- I in no way shape or form teach my kids to hurt anybody, but i am an advocate for inflicting pain. 

JTM2004,am I missing something here? I thought maybe I forgot what hurt meant so I got the dictionary out and looked it up. Hurt: 1 a: to inflict with physical pain. Huh, I was right all along and I disagree with your teachings.

When he says hurt he means injure.  There's nothing wrong with inflicting pain.  A power half, for example, works because it's painful.

[Professor Chaos]

Grecoref, I wrestled at fargo from 2003-2007 and saw a move just like this done around six times and never was the wrestler DQed. Has there been a rule change since then ?

Next, wrestling is simply a  violent sport. If you want to be successful as a wrestler you have to step out on the mat with the attitude that you want to kick the crap out of your opponent and inflict pain.  Like WarrenDad said,  injuring someone intentionally is when there is a problem.

Chaos.

[grecoref]

Chaos,

In THIS situation the attacking wrestler fell on the defensive wrestler, with no back arch by the offensive wrestler. This is the Junior division and safety is paramount.

If the offensive wrestler back arches then this technique could be legal with no problem.