Thoughts about the Indiana Youth State Tournament

[Wagner]

We just moved here from MO and were kinda shocked to find out there is no districts or regionals for youth wrestlers to get into State.  Wanting to know how everyone else feels about this?  Back home it is a big deal just to be a State Qualifier.  Beating out all the kids at districts and regionals to make it to State is a big feat and then you have the best kids from the State wrestling eachother.  You have a 16 man bracket for each age and weight class and get to see the top wrestlers.  Your positioning in the bracket at State was based on your current season results, as well as whether or not you were a State Qualifier or State Placer the previous season.

[TSchaefer]

There is one pretty big problem doing it that way...meaning the district, local, sectional, and regional qualifying route...some areas may several outstanding wrestlers in a particular age or weight...the end result is you do not have the best wrestlers standing on the podium at state because you may have had the 2nd or 3rd best wrestler in the entire state eliminated at the local/district,  sectional, or regional, while someone else living in an area with very little competition at that particular weight or age gets a walk in the park to go to state and compete. I like the way the ISWA does Youth State...let em wrestle...

[Wagner]

You don't have that problem with this format because the top 6 wrestlers from each district advance to Regionals and the top 4 from Regionals advance to State.  There are no Sectionals.  It doesn't matter if you are from a small town.  With the current format; District/Regionals you have the top 16 wrestlers from the State and the bracket is built in the most competitive manner rather than not knowing any of the kids previous records and just throwing them into a 32 or 64 man bracket.  Just throwing them into a 32 or 64 man bracket you are more prone in to weeding out your best wrestlers because they might be paired up early on the same side of the bracket.

[TSchaefer]

I get it, maybe I just used a bad analogy...
"You don't have that problem with this format because the top 6 wrestlers from each district advance to Regionals and the top 4 from Regionals advance to State."

There are some scarce weight classes, so, forget skill, let me use a different example...we may have 6-8 PW 75 lbs in the entire state...5 may be from the same district...we had one kid get 3 matches at state and won it all...basically an odd age and weight combination...the above, 6 advancing at this stage, and 4 advancing at this stage may work in huge popular age and weights....but what do you do about the scarce age and weights...

Just food for thought...

[nosoccermomhere]

I am not a fan of this. The kids like having the opportunity to compete at state. I don't think we need to limit who gets to wrestle. I do however like the idea of sending the brackets.

[Wagner]

If Indiana is not going to do Districts or Regionals for State youth wrestling, at least bracket them according to records so you are not just throwing names into the pool.

[dinubus]

There is one pretty big problem doing it that way...meaning the district, local, sectional, and regional qualifying route...some areas may several outstanding wrestlers in a particular age or weight...the end result is you do not have the best wrestlers standing on the podium at state because you may have had the 2nd or 3rd best wrestler in the entire state eliminated at the local/district,  sectional, or regional, while someone else living in an area with very little competition at that particular weight or age gets a walk in the park to go to state and compete. I like the way the ISWA does Youth State...let em wrestle...

I am from Michigan which now has everything messed up by MYWAY, but back when I was a kid, we had districts, regionals, and state.  The problem you are referring to was fixed with the fact that you could choose whatever districts you wished to drive to and attend.  That particular districts led to a specified region, then of course state.  So, if you knew your area was quite strong, you could choose another district to attend.  I'm not saying this is perfect either, but I would agree that the state brackets were fairer in the end than they are with these 64 man brackets.   On the other hand, what could be cooler than to have a state bracket on your wall with 64 competitors listed.

[MCKAJC]

I tend to agree Wagner. I think a state series would add allot to the state finals. Illinois also runs a series much like MO. I've always thought wrestlers should have to qualify for the state finals with the same format used in High School. Of course there would be kids who were coming out of tough sectionals or regionals and didn't make it to the finals. So I supose there are pluses and minuses for each. It would make the state finals more managable and focused with 16-24 man brackets at each weight class. The ISWA has always done a great job with their format and they have taken suggestions over the years and made changes to make the tournament better. I don't think it's out of line though to ask the question,

why not a state series??

 Just my opinion.

[unknown wrestler]

I think every kid should have the right to compete at state its junior high not high school!   What's more exciting than a 64 man bracket?   Throw them all in and just wrestle to figure out who the best is!  Isn't that why we wrestle in the first place?   Why would u wanna take that experiance away?

[MCKAJC]

I think every kid should have the right to compete at state its junior high not high school!   What's more exciting than a 64 man bracket?   Throw them all in and just wrestle to figure out who the best is!  Isn't that why we wrestle in the first place?   Why would u wanna take that experiance away?

It's not about taking anything away. And I'm not complaining about the current format. I have seen both formats in youth wrestling and I think a 16-24 man bracket of kids who have all qualified through sectional and regional events is better. Every match would be of higher quality. With the current format it's far more possible to have mis-matches later in the tournament. In my opinion that's not how it should go in a "state final event". With a series most all matches are close and of high quality. Most all of the top states in youth wrestling run a youth state series.

unknown you still haven't answered my question under Middle School State Champs about your prediction at 105#

[Wagner]

The problem with throwing everyone into a 64 man bracket is you do get mismatches.  You could have all the top kids on one side.  You have to have the brackets set up correctly.  Not everything is fair, and to get the best matches possible you need a state series.

[Signal34]

One thing every one is forgetting. It's all about the money. 24 kids x 35$ or 64 kids x 35$.

[Y2CJ41]

I believe the ISWA did do a regional format many moons ago, but then went to a format where you had to place top 3 in a local tournament to qualify for state.  The folkstyle state finals has always been open due to the timing that coincides with a lot of middle school and high school tournaments.

[Wagner]

On another note about bracketing for state.  The top states that have a state series for youth wrestling you work hard all season to win matches to get your record up.  At every tournament you are ranked.  You don't have the ages split in Novice, Intermediate etc....Novice means just that, you have 1 year experience.  At every tournament you are ranked so you can get the best possible matches.  1=National Champ/Placer, 2=State Medalist, 3=Experinced and 4=Novice.  You also include your record so they can better match you up in the brackets.  This is why kids work so hard so at every tournament so they can be matched up with good competition and hopefully be better wrestlers by wrestling guys at their same caliber. You know at every tournament what the kids record is by how they are bracketed.

[Y2CJ41]

We already have coaches and parents that fudge their weigh in sheets for events that allow satellite weigh-ins, wouldn't the same people also fudge their son's records?

[Wagner]

Well, one thing you can't fudge is wether you are a National champ/placer or a state qualifer if you have a state series.    You are considered experienced and not a novice anymore if you place at rookie state or have more than 2 years experience.  These are all things that can be looked up.  It simply helps make the brackets more competitive which in the end helps the kids become better. 

[Y2CJ41]

Well, one thing you can't fudge is wether you are a National champ/placer or a state qualifer if you have a state series.    You are considered experienced and not a novice anymore if you place at rookie state or have more than 2 years experience.  These are all things that can be looked up.  It simply helps make the brackets more competitive which in the end helps the kids become better. 

Yes they can be looked up, but if you have 500 kids in a tournament who is going to look up to make sure no one is lying?

[dad2cash]

Its hard enough to keep young kids motivated to stay involved with youth wrestling. I say leave all of the qualifying to the big boys in IHSAA.  A lot of kids look forward to going to state.  That's the prize for all of the hard work.
I would like to see a true second though.
For those who get stuck with a large bracket just be thankful for the quantity of participation.
The more numbers involved in youth wrestling equals more middleschoolers equals more high schoolers.  

Not to mention it is a huge fundraiser for the ISWA.  Which has made significant changes and runs an awesome efficient tournament.

[jlittlejohn]

The ISWA does use the following at the state finals. This information is listed on the State Finals pages on the website, ISWA.com - Schedules - State Finals event listing and in the publication that was mailed out to all members.

Separation Criteria
ISWA Folkstyle State Champions, ISWA Freestyle State Champions and ISWA Greco State Champions, within the
past 2 years, will be separated. Please Note: You must indicate your championship, in the space provided, when you
pre-register at trackwrestling.com (IHSWCA Middle School State is not an ISWA State Finals event)

[dinubus]

On another note about bracketing for state.  The top states that have a state series for youth wrestling you work hard all season to win matches to get your record up.  At every tournament you are ranked.  You don't have the ages split in Novice, Intermediate etc....Novice means just that, you have 1 year experience.  At every tournament you are ranked so you can get the best possible matches.  1=National Champ/Placer, 2=State Medalist, 3=Experinced and 4=Novice.  You also include your record so they can better match you up in the brackets.  This is why kids work so hard so at every tournament so they can be matched up with good competition and hopefully be better wrestlers by wrestling guys at their same caliber. You know at every tournament what the kids record is by how they are bracketed.

At youth levels (peewee, bantam, intermediate, novice, schoolboy) that seems absurd.  Unless your next step is to limit the number of tournaments based on the number of possible competitors in that area.  Records, even at the high school level, typically mean very little.  If you are from a very tough team who wrestles all tough competition, you may have several losses to your name, yet you are very tough.  On the other hand, on a weaker team in a weaker area, you may be undefeated, yet truely you are undeveloped.  Records can only mean something to the coach that keeps them and uses the data to keep improving the overall team.