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Westforkwhite

Forfeits - MN's proposed solution

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My biggest fear is once we start losing weights, we can't get them back if participation rises or we get the desired affect. 

Especially at smaller schools you seem to have a lot more "varsity or bust" attitudes and with less opportunities I don't see that being a good thing. 

As far as this proposal, I can see some issues. It said basically they will only have 14 weights in duals if it is agreed upon prior. Two issues I see are....

1. Kids at 195 and 106 won't have enough matches during the season.
2. Teams that have able bodied wrestlers might lean towards the 12 weights if the other team has a good 106 or 195 in order for them to have a better shot to win.

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Seems like scheduling all duals so that there are 4 teams ( so 2 duals for each team ) would take care of most of the problems.  If a kid is making weight, they want to wrestle.  That would double their chances of getting at least one match.  I think the proposals to condense weights are asking for more problems in the future.

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The fix to filling weights is to have a good feeder program in place and hook these kids at a young age also getting the kids you have to get friends to come out.. If you look around the State i'm sure you will see the same thing i see in Delaware county. examples Yorktown not a large school but has been able to fill a team. Daleville i don't think even had a full team till now, but if you look at their elementary, middle school and even their high school now are growing. Cowan has a great feeder in place now and is growing fast. Delta is doing well with numbers. Monroe Central had small high school numbers but have the numbers now. Then look at other school with no feeder programs and they are the ones struggling. Is this a fast solution no but if your hurting in number there is no better way to get them then to start a feeder program.  It comes down to coaching staff and parents putting the work in and the kids will come. If you have a program in place but still do not have the numbers do something different. Summer trips are great. Do freestyle and greco for a lot of places i have heard they don't teach it because they are worried about it effecting folkstyle. All my kids have done freestyle and greco and it has helped a ton. Yes there is an adjustment period at the start but kids adjust fast. I see 7 and 8 year olds every year make this adjustment so it is not an excuse not to do it.  Dropping to 12 weights will only hurt the sport more because the schools that do have the weights to fill the classes now will only have 12 spots. That's 2 less spots and 2 less kids making varsity. Giving 2 kids a reason to want to quit. I just don't see any positives from this.

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Let me start by saying at Columbus East we have had a full (or nearly always full) and competitive roster for the past several years.  So this comes from my own perspective...  When I look at the list kids who have either quit, or don't come back the following year, almost all of them are kids who were varsity and were going to probably get beat out of the lineup the next season or kids who got beat/about to get beat out of the spot in the current season.  If the number of weight classes are reduced, at Columbus East, we would certainly lose kids.

I just don't see how eliminating opportunities (weight classes) would possibly increase participation.  It may or may not decrease the number of forfeits, but won't increase the overall participation.

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Posted (edited)

Secondarily, do you believe this helps or hurts the argument that class wrestling would significantly improve forfeits?

Edited by Westforkwhite

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As a similar idea,   maybe we could copy a page from small school football where you have a 8 man or 6 man football teams.   So the same way for wrestling,  schools under a certain enrollment could have a 10 or 9 man wrestling squad for dual purposes.   You would have a wider range between weight classes and would more likely fill all the weights.    Maybe the schools like mentioned above could contract to go small school weight classes or standard weight classes.    On the football note 8 man football is big in Texas and some other states.  Its wide open and popular and enables real small schools to play.

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4 minutes ago, Westforkwhite said:

Secondarily, do you believe this helps or hurts the argument that class wrestling would significantly improve forfeits?

Significantly is an interesting word to use because it can be defined as reducing forfeits by any range of numbers. I would say you would see a decrease in forfeits over time, defining if you, me or another Joe Schmoe thinks that is "significant" can be another mountain to climb.

A couple things to address in Minnesota is they allow 7th and 8th graders to wrestle. I think this could be good and bad. First it fills the lower weights easily, but I think it can hurt the bigger weights. Kids in middle school that are bigger(150lbs+) would see their smaller counterparts being varsity and realize they won't be varsity until later, thus hanging up the sport earlier than they should.

Secondly, the co-ops are interesting especially in that Minnesota has MANY small schools. Just taking a quick look at their enrollments it looks like this.

AAA 3099-1255 56
AA 1254-435 96
A 434-1 232

I stopped at 100 students for the smallest class and there are easily 100 more schools with less than 100 students. There are MANY, MANY, MANY more small schools in Minnesota.

 

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11 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

As a similar idea,   maybe we could copy a page from small school football where you have a 8 man or 6 man football teams.   So the same way for wrestling,  schools under a certain enrollment could have a 10 or 9 man wrestling squad for dual purposes.   You would have a wider range between weight classes and would more likely fill all the weights.    Maybe the schools like mentioned above could contract to go small school weight classes or standard weight classes.    On the football note 8 man football is big in Texas and some other states.  Its wide open and popular and enables real small schools to play.

The issue I see there is in football teams play others in their class or just around it. In wrestling you seem to wrestle lots of different teams from each class.

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2 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

The issue I see there is in football teams play others in their class or just around it. In wrestling you seem to wrestle lots of different teams from each class.

I agree.   The only way around that obstacle would be to make it optional.    When a small school wrestles a small school,  then you could go with the fewer weight class format and if they wrestled a big school, they could switch to the standard format.   Maybe even a big school could have the option to go the lower weight class to make the dual more even.    It might make the dual a more going concern.

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I would rather give teams an option (if mutually agreed) to replace one of the weights with another weight. For example, neither team has a 106 but both teams have an extra 145. They could slot those guys in and still let 14 kids wrestle.

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I used to do a middle school dual with New Pal at the U of I inter-squad.  We would wrestle 8 or 10 weight classes.  Each coach would pick four or five weight classes.  It was like a chess match.  You didn't want to pick a weight class that you knew the other coach would want to pick, but you didn't want to leave your best kids on the bench.  We alternated choice like school yard picks.  One coach picked and the other got the next two. This was cool, but doesn't fix the problem we are talking about.  Coaches would pick the class that the other coach didn't have filled to get the W.  Not bashing the idea either.  

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This will help with dodging kids too. Count the win of each weight class for the school no matter which kids were at what weight. That will make seeding easier too. So if ur kid wants to claim his spot he better stick with that class or  take chances in getting lower seed? 

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With today's technology and how travel teams are built, its too bad that you couldn't have a pool of JV kids available to borrow from other teams that border your school to fill holes in your line-up.  Even if you didn't get to count the points for your team's dual score, you help JV kids get matches and help the other team not get forfeits.  The kids might even make some friends nearby they could continue to train with in the off season.  Would probably open up issues with teams recruiting but just an idea that may be worth exploring some day.

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22 minutes ago, doctorWrestling said:

With today's technology and how travel teams are built, its too bad that you couldn't have a pool of JV kids available to borrow from other teams that border your school to fill holes in your line-up.  Even if you didn't get to count the points for your team's dual score, you help JV kids get matches and help the other team not get forfeits.  The kids might even make some friends nearby they could continue to train with in the off season.  Would probably open up issues with teams recruiting but just an idea that may be worth exploring some day.

Speaking from a "Debbie Downer" perspective, that would be a logistical nightmare. Being at a school with 40+ kids I could envision us getting a call to send Billy, Joey, Stevie, and Sammy to XYZ school on Tuesday(with a coach) then also sending Johnny, Danny, and Owen to ZYX school on that same night.

I do like the idea of co-ops that many states utilize, however I am not sure of the exact rules pertaining to them.

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 "It may or may not decrease the number of forfeits, but won't increase the overall participation."  totally agree Coach Coop

Ive been at both small school and big school and I don't like this for either school.

 

Eliminating weight classes at the big school means less kids wrestle at the big schools, decreasing number of wrestlers.  

While understandably hard to do, it is all about creative scheduling, and marketing to keep the dual interesting (for schools of all sizes)- not cutting weight classes.  

Don't just think strict traditional dualsif that doesn't work for your program - current rules for scheduling allow for many different formats of meets

 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, dstruck said:

 

Don't just think strict traditional duals if that doesn't work for your program - current rules for scheduling allow for many different formats of meets

 

I thought the state was now putting an emphasis on the single week day dual meet.  

Edited by AJ

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18 points (16 plus 2 for conference)

Basics:

"6 weeknight points": 4 meets must be one on one duals, 2 others can be a little creative - leaving room for 6 duals, or 4 duals and a "triple dual"

12 other points to play with left, that the state has left alone for you to figure out what is best for your program -  6 tourney's, 12 individual duals, etc....... however you see best as the leader of your team

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1 hour ago, dstruck said:

18 points (16 plus 2 for conference)

Basics:

"6 weeknight points": 4 meets must be one on one duals, 2 others can be a little creative - leaving room for 6 duals, or 4 duals and a "triple dual"

12 other points to play with left, that the state has left alone for you to figure out what is best for your program -  6 tourney's, 12 individual duals, etc....... however you see best as the leader of your team

Coach...This needs to be clarified.  Robert Faulkens has told multiple schools in our conference two different things.  At the coaches clinic this Fall, he told me specifically it had to be 4 single night duals and then we could get creative.  I spoke with you and the other association big dogs about it that very day.  My AD called for clarification and he told him the same thing. He told 2 other conference schools it had to be 6 single night duals.  I know this because when we tried to schedule them for a triple dual, both teams said they couldn't because they need single duals to get to their 6...per what they were told when they contacted Robert.  Not all schools and coaches are being told the same thing.

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Robert Faulkens <>
Tue 1/9/2018 2:24 PM
 
 
To:
Daniel Struck;
 
You replied on 1/9/2018 2:28 PM.

 
Two things.  First, the duals do not have to be weeknight events.  Second, yes, the triple dual fits into the 6 duals.

Robert E. Faulkens
Assistant Commissioner
Indiana High School Athletic Association

 

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4 minutes ago, dstruck said:
Robert Faulkens <>
Tue 1/9/2018 2:24 PM
 
 
To:
Daniel Struck;
 
You replied on 1/9/2018 2:28 PM.

 

 
Two things.  First, the duals do not have to be weeknight events.  Second, yes, the triple dual fits into the 6 duals.

Robert E. Faulkens
Assistant Commissioner
Indiana High School Athletic Association

 

Thanks...all I can tell you is the emails I have seen from him to the two other schools, do not say this.  We have scheduled 6 single night duals because I think we need to promote those events and create more of a buzz for our program.  We also have a triple dual, 1 super dual, two holiday tourneys, and our conference.  We have a good mix.

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