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Melloh and Mulkey

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4 minutes ago, SWINfan said:

That's a little different than a guy that graduated from a school half a century ago (approx lol).  I get the basic concern though.  I just don't think it had anything to do  with the call.  NONE of us do as no one else in his head.  

I can say this, and I'm sure I'll get hammered for it, but I'll bet any officials will agree with me.  Again, I haven't officiated a game (I did baseball) in 25 years.  But I can say that as an official you are working as hard as you can to get each call right and when you are in the middle of a close call your mind isn't thinking about which team is which.  It's only after the action stops do you process things.  

Valid point, but there’s always implicit bias that may govern his mental process subconsciously

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1 minute ago, BrianLefeve said:

Valid point, but there’s always implicit bias that may govern his mental process subconsciously

You are correct.  But in that same light the same could occur if a guy got chewed out by a coach the week before.  Who the hell knows what drives the subconscious?  

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8 minutes ago, SWINfan said:

You are correct.  But in that same light the same could occur if a guy got chewed out by a coach the week before.  Who the hell knows what drives the subconscious?  

Exactly, there’s no way to prevent it fully or know for certain, but I believe if we can take any measure to prevent bias we should

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Personally don’t care where the ref went to HS.

bit I agree with the opinion that it was a poor call. I just want to see the kids decide the outcome on the mat. Call stalemate if you don’t like it and stand them back up

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15 hours ago, SWINfan said:

That's a little different than a guy that graduated from a school half a century ago (approx lol).  I get the basic concern though.  I just don't think it had anything to do  with the call.  NONE of us do as no one else in his head.  

I can say this, and I'm sure I'll get hammered for it, but I'll bet any officials will agree with me.  Again, I haven't officiated a game (I did baseball) in 25 years.  But I can say that as an official you are working as hard as you can to get each call right and when you are in the middle of a close call your mind isn't thinking about which team is which.  It's only after the action stops do you process things.  

But sometimes with the familiarity, and official can get used to one wrestler's flow/style/schtick (can work both ways), hence sometimes focusing on the wrestler they have not seen; that's just human behavioral nature. Back in the day, we had several boosters, alumni, and teachers/administrators that were refs. During the season, they would occasionally get our team's dual meet, no big deal.  But in postseason, they always went to other regional or semi-state; at state, they were sure to take themselves off of a match that involved someone from our school, because it was common sense.

As a wrestler, I never wanted any of these guys doing my match for reasons on both sides of the ledger. 

It's a cop-out to say it is logistically difficult. At the State Finals, each mat has 2 officials; not hard to make a switch with the primary or 2ndary, or to tell the chief official, "hey put me on the other mat for a match, this kid coming up is from my school". It's not like they don't keep 2 extra refs on duty as they rotate. 

Sorry, I put this on the Supervisor of Officials, head coach, and the ref. Use some common sense. 

 

 

 

Edited by Powerline

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Frankie is a good official.   He's done multiple state finals.   This is the first I've heard of him favoring cathedral and I find it a slap in the face.   The call is debatable whether you like it or not.  No way Frankie made that call to help the cathedral wrestler, he made it cause in his mind he thought it was right. 

 

What if we say certain officials went to public schools and make bad calls against parochial schools because they don't like them.   I'm sure Roncalli , MD, cathedral had some bad calls go against them this weekend.... Was it because a ref has a personal bias against them cause he went to a public school? 

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15 minutes ago, frigginhurts said:

Frankie is a good official.   He's done multiple state finals.   This is the first I've heard of him favoring cathedral and I find it a slap in the face.   The call is debatable whether you like it or not.  No way Frankie made that call to help the cathedral wrestler, he made it cause in his mind he thought it was right. 

 

What if we say certain officials went to public schools and make bad calls against parochial schools because they don't like them.   I'm sure Roncalli , MD, cathedral had some bad calls go against them this weekend.... Was it because a ref has a personal bias against them cause he went to a public school? 

I'm sure he is, but it doesn't matter, he could be the Dalai Lama.- the appearance is enough to encourage all to use common sense. How hard was it to tell the other official on the mat to take the lead as the primary ref for the match, especially in the semi-finals?  

Again, common sense goes a long, long way.

Edited by Powerline

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27 minutes ago, frigginhurts said:

Frankie is a good official.   He's done multiple state finals.   This is the first I've heard of him favoring cathedral and I find it a slap in the face.   The call is debatable whether you like it or not.  No way Frankie made that call to help the cathedral wrestler, he made it cause in his mind he thought it was right. 

 

What if we say certain officials went to public schools and make bad calls against parochial schools because they don't like them.   I'm sure Roncalli , MD, cathedral had some bad calls go against them this weekend.... Was it because a ref has a personal bias against them cause he went to a public school? 

The call is not debatable in any way you try to defend. As someone else mentioned, there is no such thing as situational stalling in the rule book. If he’s in a front headlock and not using it, it’s stalemate and stand them up. If that’s stalling, then almost every wrestler should have been hit multiple times from when they initiated a front headlock. If the defensive wrestler gets elbow control from a front headlock, it’s neutralized very quickly......not stalling but stalemate since no progress is being made by either wrestler.  What makes it worse is Mulkey was bouncing Mellohs head off the mat multiple times while having good angles for a possible takedown attempt if he wanted. 

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Knew there would be a huge thread on this, but damn gonna question a mans integrity? Integrity is not what I'd question but maybe the fact most of the refs are getting up there in age and the ability to keep up with 17/18 yr olds and make snap judgment calls, might be the factor that needs addressed. Every year most of the finals refs are the older more experienced guys as should be, but its time some younger guys to get some of that experience, and yes it will take more young guys getting involved on that side of things, lots of good young coaches not a lot of good young refs. But to question his integrity is total BS!! 

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It was listed two different ways that it could be stalling but was probably a stalemate.   I can't help you if you don't understand.  

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2 hours ago, quinnsDAD said:

Knew there would be a huge thread on this, but damn gonna question a mans integrity? Integrity is not what I'd question but maybe the fact most of the refs are getting up there in age and the ability to keep up with 17/18 yr olds and make snap judgment calls, might be the factor that needs addressed. Every year most of the finals refs are the older more experienced guys as should be, but its time some younger guys to get some of that experience, and yes it will take more young guys getting involved on that side of things, lots of good young coaches not a lot of good young refs. But to question his integrity is total BS!! 

Questioning why such common sense safeguards are not employed is the issue. It does not matter who the official is or his integrity.

This rests on many shoulders.

You don't think the refs have a quick meeting before the tournament on specific issues or rules every session?  I would expect the head ref to say every round "thanks for being here and doing what you do, everyone appreciates it. Now go out and enjoy some good wrestling, be consistent, communicate with your 2nd official, don't become part of the match, and for the sake of common sense & appearances, if you have a match where you might be affiliated in any way with either of the schools, stay as the secondary official, or come get me and I will swap you out for a match" 

Boom, all done. 

 

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20 hours ago, MD92 said:

Sounds like#paintrain went off the rails today with Lee the only one getting it done and their leader getting the boot. 

thank you for not letting us all down...... @MD92 showing his true colors with this anonymous post as a huge P.O.S.    good to know some things don't change  #StayClassy u huge d-bag

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42 minutes ago, JMILL said:

thank you for not letting us all down...... @MD92 showing his true colors with this anonymous post as a huge P.O.S.    good to know some things don't change  #StayClassy u huge d-bag

Things that make you go hmmm

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30 minutes ago, purdue02 said:

Does anyone have this match or know where I can find a replay of it without having to pay the track wrestling fees?

If you google “highway robbery” the link should pop right up there at the top. 

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1.) Congrats to Cathedral.  I’m not sure anyone who hasn’t been through it truly understands how hard it is to win an Individual State Title let alone a Team State Championship. 

2.) I didn’t cuss or anything like that.  I was booted and deserved to be because I left the mat and came back screaming again.  I was told that by Mr. Faulkens.  

3.)  I know I shouldn’t have come back on the mat.  Thanks to him for allowing me to stay in back of venue.  I lost it and would hope I could keep my compusure in the future.  I’ve never been tossed out before that I remember.  I deserved it.  I’ve already told my assistants to pull me from the mat.  I don’t see this situation repeating itself, though   

4.) I am not ever going to sacrifice a kid’s dream of a state title.  Brayton Lee is the ONLY kid I have ever coached that I told I must have bonus points from at Individual State.  Probably the first and last.  He’s special. I never worried about my actions causing a team title.  We are a family here.  I was able to meet with my team since Mr. Faulkens allowed me To stay in the venue.  I told them I was sorry I was unable to corner them.  (FYI I don’t corner BLee.  Ayersman negotiated that.)  Lol.  Immediately, Nathan Walton said, “Coach you have prepared us and we would want you to do the same thing for each of us.”

5.) I was out of control and returned to the mat after waking off.  That equals getting tossed.  I have no issue with it.  Most people hate me.  That fuels me and our program.  I have enough friends and I’m not looking to win a popularity contest.  As long as the Mishawaka And Brownsburg Wrestlers and fans love me that’s what I care about. Talk to them.  I have 100% administrative support here, which I have never had before.  

6.) Why did I lose it even though i shouldn’t have?  It is NOT an opinion or judgement call.  In the casebook - look it up - it literally says the front-headlock position is a stalemate. It’s cut and dry. Not debatable.  It was the wrong call.  Period.  Doesn’t matter if we were snapping or trying to score.  Makes no difference.  Says stalemate.  Watch the film. Blake is my guy.  He is facing me in 30 second OT. Im snapping to mat.  He does exactly what I tell him to do.  I know the rules.  Then, it costs him a chance for his state title.  I care about my wrestlers.  Our system is messed up.  I could not care less about a team title then.  I care about Blake and his goal.  If he and they win, we win.

7.) It is what it is.  Cathedral was freaking impressive. Blake’s opponent is a stud and seems like an outstanding young man. Just like Blake.   

I probably shouldn’t post, but I will. Discussing wrestling I think is good for our sport and my thoughts are always open for anyone.  

 

Snyder 

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