Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
RichardMowery

Mappes vs South?

Recommended Posts

First off I am in no way trying to bash the evansville officials but I do think that there was a lack of stall/fleeing the mat calls. I seen quite a bit of stalling with no calls and guys who basically ran off the mat and no call. I also seen a lot of inconsistency among calls one in particular was the Mappes vs south match, Mappes looked to have a take down before they went out of bounds but was called no take down later in the match the same Scenario happened at almost the same exact spot and south was awarded the takedown. I am not a official and I know it is not a easy job. Us as spectators see a lot more in the stands then they can see on the mat.  I’m just curious on everyone’s thoughts on that call and the lack of no calls? 

Edited by RichardMowery

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There needs to be some clarification on the out-of-bounds calls (when one wrestler is going for a pin) and also when is a takedown awarded while going out of bounds.

If anyone has access to the rules, please post. I saw a LOT of variation on these calls this past weekend

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, base said:

There needs to be some clarification on the out-of-bounds calls (when one wrestler is going for a pin) and also when is a takedown awarded while going out of bounds.

If anyone has access to the rules, please post. I saw a LOT of variation on these calls this past weekend

Agreed some officials stop the second even a finger goes out others let them keep wrestling until both wrestlers are completely out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, RichardMowery said:

First off I am in no way trying to bash the evansville officials but I do think that there was a lack of stall/fleeing the mat calls. I seen quite a bit of stalling with no calls and guys who basically ran off the mat and no call. I also seen a lot of inconsistency among calls one in particular was the Mappes vs south match, Mappes looked to have a take down before they went out of bounds but was called no take down later in the match the same Scenario happened at almost the same exact spot and south was awarded the takedown. I am not a official and I know it is not a easy job. Us as spectators see a lot more in the stands then they can see on the mat.  I’m just curious on everyone’s thoughts on that call and the lack of no calls? 

Here is what I think...... This past weekend matches are over and they don't matter anymore...... Next weekend is a new season..... Everyone is 0-0 and the guys that go 4-0 this upcoming weekend will be state champs!!!!!  Good luck to all wrestlers...... Have a good week of practice...... Leave everything on the mat!!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, T29East said:

Wow guess South just got lucky. 

Lucky? No I was rooting for him south wrestled a great match and I hope he is on top of the podium this week as well I’m just using that particular Scenario to get my point across that there was some inconsistency at Evansville this week.

Edited by RichardMowery

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mappes will get his renvenge this weekend. Im predicting him to take the title. He always seems to do his best wrestling , the last week of the season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my opinion officiating has been horrible the entire season for the most part. Inconsistency in calls on most every weekend.  One official will call something one way , then go to a different mat with a different official and he will call almost the same exact thing a different way. At our Regional , kid wa s going for a pin with one wrestlers head out of bounds but rest of body in bounds and other wrestle completely in bounds and official call them out.  Next match up, same official,  kids are completely out of bounds except half of a leg and let them keep wrestling for almost a entire period. Their was not any stalling calls , it was terrible. I understand that the officials say they can't see everything , but that is what they are getting paid to do. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Cville75 said:

In my opinion officiating has been horrible the entire season for the most part. Inconsistency in calls on most every weekend.  One official will call something one way , then go to a different mat with a different official and he will call almost the same exact thing a different way. At our Regional , kid wa s going for a pin with one wrestlers head out of bounds but rest of body in bounds and other wrestle completely in bounds and official call them out.  Next match up, same official,  kids are completely out of bounds except half of a leg and let them keep wrestling for almost a entire period. Their was not any stalling calls , it was terrible. I understand that the officials say they can't see everything , but that is what they are getting paid to do. 

Well as a fan, there is no doubt in my mind that every time a guy loses that I'm cheering for, it's definitely because the officiating was horrible!!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not just talking about kids from our school . I am talking about kids from other schools as well. The officials are in consistent with their calls. Heck yeah, I don't want to see any kids from our school get beat , but they do. It's just the way it is but when a official is making bad calls to beat a kid, it'sjust not right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, WOC said:

Well as a fan, there is no doubt in my mind that every time a guy loses that I'm cheering for, it's definitely because the officiating was horrible!!!!!

But there's levels to it.. when the whole building is up in arms about it. then there might be def something wrong. 

Edited by FCFIGHTER170

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Before someone tells me to follow the link post on how to become an official, I would love to but due to injuries sustained in the military that is an impossible task. Now the officials at Evansville were the worst I have seen in a while. The ref with the #3 was one the the most inconsistent and I believe he cost a few kids from advancing to the next round starting from round one. He would call out of bounds when one foot came close and let others wrestle till the were both on the Ice. I wish I could find my phone because I have three matches he refer that the same situation got different calls. Sorry for putting you out there but you need to be more consistent and hopefully I can gain enough mobility to become an official

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The truth is that the two types of calls you reference, stall calls and the out-of-bounds calls, have always been this way in Indiana. If you move in from some other states it is quite striking actually how much stalling can be allowed here sometimes, and how some referees call the sideline. Unfortunately, there are some programs here that actually coach to this...they're teaching their wrestlers to wrestle at the sideline, back off the mat, and take asinine amounts of time back to the circle, etc--almost as if they're daring the referee to call something. I can think of one instance though this past semi-state weekend, where a wrestler from a particular program lost on a questionable takedown at the sideline call at the end--this wrestler all season wrestled in a time-wasting style, backing off, moving to the sideline, etc, and it finally bit him in the butt. They're going to keep doing that, until the the refs starting putting that fist up in the air, or award that takedown at the sideline thereby dissuading teams from using that technique. Over the years I've decided just to go with it--it can be frustrating but there's not much that can be done, and the lesson that the kids have to learn is that they have to find a way to win, regardless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, TCCender said:

The truth is that the two types of calls you reference, stall calls and the out-of-bounds calls, have always been this way in Indiana. If you move in from some other states it is quite striking actually how much stalling can be allowed here sometimes, and how some referees call the sideline. Unfortunately, there are some programs here that actually coach to this...they're teaching their wrestlers to wrestle at the sideline, back off the mat, and take asinine amounts of time back to the circle, etc--almost as if they're daring the referee to call something. I can think of one instance though this past semi-state weekend, where a wrestler from a particular program lost on a questionable takedown at the sideline call at the end--this wrestler all season wrestled in a time-wasting style, backing off, moving to the sideline, etc, and it finally bit him in the butt. They're going to keep doing that, until the the refs starting putting that fist up in the air, or award that takedown at the sideline thereby dissuading teams from using that technique. Over the years I've decided just to go with it--it can be frustrating but there's not much that can be done, and the lesson that the kids have to learn is that they have to find a way to win, regardless.

Yep. We teach our kids to attack and if you get near the out of bound lines go back to the center. If you do go out of bounds run back to the center. You do that enough times the ref usually gets the hint.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, aoberlin said:

Yep. We teach our kids to attack and if you get near the out of bound lines go back to the center. If you do go out of bounds run back to the center. You do that enough times the ref usually gets the hint.

Exactly, one would hope. Doesn't always happen though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess I must have been at a different event then most of you. Where there controversial calls, absolutely. Did I see some I thought were incorrect, again absolutely. But for the most part I thought the officials at E'ville were pretty consistent. They didn't call points at the edge much at all. I thought the officials were pretty consistent in that. There were a few exceptions, but for the most part points weren't being awarded at the edge.

IMO, at best the officiating in E'ville was pretty good - at worst it was acceptable.

If I had a bone to pick it would be about the assistant officials. Unless I missed something, there was not a single example of an assistant official over-ruling a call. If these guys are not going to give an opinion - why are they even there?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, SIACfan said:

I guess I must have been at a different event then most of you. Where there controversial calls, absolutely. Did I see some I thought were incorrect, again absolutely. But for the most part I thought the officials at E'ville were pretty consistent. They didn't call points at the edge much at all. I thought the officials were pretty consistent in that. There were a few exceptions, but for the most part points weren't being awarded at the edge.

IMO, at best the officiating in E'ville was pretty good - at worst it was acceptable.

If I had a bone to pick it would be about the assistant officials. Unless I missed something, there was not a single example of an assistant official over-ruling a call. If these guys are not going to give an opinion - why are they even there?

I think it was Levi Miller's first round match, assistant ref overturned the call and they ended up awarding him a last second take down. Not saying it wasn't there just stating an example.

I do agree with you, lots of situations where an assistant ref could have helped. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

An asst can only provide assistance if asked by the head ref and even then he can't overturn the head ref. I learned this last year during the semi finals at state where there were several close calls. I talked w/ a high ranking ref after that and he sent me this:

Page 13 Rule 3 Section 2 Assistant Referee

Art 1... By state high school association adoption, an assistant referee may be used during competition. The use of an assistant referee is designed to minimize human error in matters of rule application and judgment.

Art 2... The assistant referee will be granted the same mobility as the referee and will compliment and assist the referee in making calls. The referee will be in complete control of the match. Following are procedures to follow with the use of an assistant referee:

a. Constant verbal communication between the referee and the assistant is necessary throughout the match concerning stalling, line calls, illegal holds/maneuver, technical violations, potentially dangerous holds/maneuvers, and time remaining in the period;

b. The two referees should be facing each other while each is maintaining a view between the wrestlers. Both referees must move to positions on the mat where the best view of wrestling and verbal communications can be achieved;  

c. In a near fall situation, the assistant referee should not be down on the mat, but in a position to observe the action, the clock, and tap the referee when time expires;

d. If the assistant referee observes interlocking hands or grasping of clothing, the proper signal should be given immediately and the assistant referee should inform the referee of the infraction;

e. The assistant referee must develop a feel for the match to properly assist the referee. When the assistant disagrees with the referee the assistant will bring it to the referee's attention immediately (when asked). It is not required to stop the match unless the referee thinks it is necessary. The referee will avoid interrupting the match when significant action is in progress;

f. When necessary, the referee and the assistant shall meet briefly at the edge of the mat away from the wrestlers and coaches, away from the scorer's table to discuss the point of disagreement;

g. The assistant may support, disagree or have no opinion relative to a decision. The referee shall prevail in the event of a disagreement;

h. When a decision is reached the referee will inform the scorer's table of any change in mat scoring, timing, etc.;

i. The referee, assistant referee, and two contestants are the only individuals permitted on the wrestling mat. Coaches are not permitted to address the assistant referee and the assistant referee is not permitted to address the coaches. This is the referee's responsibility;

j. During any headlock, the assistant should be in position to observe any action from underneath and verbally inform the referee of any change from legal to illegal;

k. During the end of match procedure, the assistant referee shall be on the edge of the circle to observe both wrestlers and coaches as they leave the wrestling area.

 

A summary as explained to IHSAA officials is that the referee does not offer his opinion unless asked to do so. The coach may ask the referee to ask the assistant, and although it is general practice to do so, and referees are encouraged to do so, the referee is not always obligated to do so. When a coach addresses the assistant referee is can be construed as Unsportsmanlike Conduct, although the assistant will usually direct the coach to the referee. The assistant referee may issue penalties to coaches without the permission of the referee. Regardless of teh experience of ability level, the assistant can NEVER overrule the referee.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Cville75 said:

In my opinion officiating has been horrible the entire season for the most part. Inconsistency in calls on most every weekend.  One official will call something one way , then go to a different mat with a different official and he will call almost the same exact thing a different way. At our Regional , kid wa s going for a pin with one wrestlers head out of bounds but rest of body in bounds and other wrestle completely in bounds and official call them out.  Next match up, same official,  kids are completely out of bounds except half of a leg and let them keep wrestling for almost a entire period. Their was not any stalling calls , it was terrible. I understand that the officials say they can't see everything , but that is what they are getting paid to do. 

There is a rule book and case manual we are given..sometimes whatlooks like stalling to a fan is not stalling ect..as far as out of bounds if the wrestler has a.take down with his 2 feet in bounds the take down should be awarded then out of bounds called

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, TripleB said:

A summary as explained to IHSAA officials is that the referee does not offer his opinion unless asked to do so. The coach may ask the referee to ask the assistant, and although it is general practice to do so, and referees are encouraged to do so, the referee is not always obligated to do so. When a coach addresses the assistant referee is can be construed as Unsportsmanlike Conduct, although the assistant will usually direct the coach to the referee. The assistant referee may issue penalties to coaches without the permission of the referee. Regardless of teh experience of ability level, the assistant can NEVER overrule the referee.

 

Thanks TribleB! But I am aware that the assistant official cannot over-rule the lead official. That was simply poor wording on my part.

I was simply eluding to the fact that it seems either assistant officials are reluctant to offer a different opinion or lead officials are reluctant to accept opposing views & change their call. I'm quit certain it depends on the individual official. It just appeared to me that there was a reluctance to change calls. IMO, they have two officials at this level for the purpose of getting the call right, & it often appears to me that officials seem to error on the side of sticking with the original call.

Edited by SIACfan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jason, I understand that the officials have a set of rules to go by . It's just when the same official is not consistent with his calls that make him stand out as a bad official. Like I said earlier,  kid clearly had other kid pinned with only part of 1 wrestlers head out of bounds and the official call them out of bounds. The official did not even give near fall points, now tell me how this is right. The very next match after this one with a different weight class, the kids were out of bounds except one kids 1/2 leg and the official lets this go for a entire period. My opinion IHSAA needs to have a new testing procedure for current officials to see if they understand the rules that might of been changed since they took the test to begin with and also to make sure ALL officials are calling it like it should be called.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this  

×