HomesteadWrestling Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 (edited) Now before you respond and say how this is such a terrible idea, let me just say this - I am not sure if I am even in favor of this. Like a few other contributors have shared, we have to take a different angle. The IHSAA isn't responding to the current request. So instead of throwing the same bait into the water and hoping to catch the fish, maybe we switch the bait. I was going to just give a quick video explanation because I don't want to type all of this, but let's think through some of this and pull out all the pros and cons. Try to read through all of it so we can have productive dialogue. I think if we are going to improve our state tournament or reach the desired end, it will have to be a gradual shift. The seeding idea certainly isn't a perfect solution but I think of the BCS in college football and I think we hear less complaining with the playoff than we did with an outright one and done championship game. If our case is going to be strong, I believe it needs to accomplish the following: 1. Not cost the IHSAA any additional money or cut into any potential revenue 2. The length of the tournaments can't increase When I considered those two factors, I thought a "seed meeting" could help avoid some of the issues we are facing in semi-state. Keyword: some, not all. I cringe at the idea of reproducing the already painful sectional seed meeting but maybe it could look different. Perhaps coaches do a lot of legwork ahead of time and submit their data to a seeding committee. I am not sure how we could do this effectively but I thought you could have IHSWCA member coaches volunteer to seed a tournament they are not associated with. There would not be a physical seed meeting where all participating schools show up and talk in circles for three hours. Could the committee members have ulterior motives and try and miss-seed a regional so their kid gets a better draw down the line? Well hopefully a multiple-member committee would provide checks and balances to prevent this from happening. A strong ethics code and pairing coaches with regionals that don't feed into their semi-state could also be beneficial. If a coach doesn't wish to seed his wrestler or neglects to do his homework and submit the appropriate information, then his kids have to suffer at his lack of care. It would also help if the committee members were knowledgeable, invested in learning about all the teams and wrestlers and could get close to the right seeds even if a coach didn't do his job. When it comes to semi-state, I had one additional idea. You don't necessarily seed 1-16. Maybe you seed the 4 1's, 4 2's, etc. Then, you could still have a random computer draw if we found that to be an effective protocol. Seeding criteria: I think it could be similar to the sectional criteria but it would be awesome if it was a little more intelligent. We have such great minds on here that put together great stats, rankings and information. Now obviously none of that is flawless but the NCAA seems to get their championship tournaments right and they use math and logic, along with results, to determine proper allocations and seeds. But I am just dreaming here. I'm just thinking of the case where the "weak regional" has a kid with a 40-1 record and you have a kid who has gone through a meat-grinder of a schedule and has 7 losses. Well if we don't have head-to-head or common opponent, I guess weak schedule wins. Hopefully at the regional level we should have plenty of head-to-head and common opponents but it's not a lock. It may also be helpful to realign some regionals and try to balance things a little better on a competitive basis. Again, I am dreaming but I am trying to think of solutions that meet the two criteria above. Whatever solution we find, if we ever find it, is just a means to the end. What I think most of us want in the end is the best 16 kids at state, with the best 8 standing on the podium. Even if we decide that "wrestlebacks" is still the best proposal to take to the IHSAA each year, let's call it something different. It is a term exclusive to our sport and these people don't understand how our sport operates. THEY DON'T GET IT. They ain't one of us. So at the very least, let's hire a marketing firm and develop a better brand, image and slogan for "wrestlebacks". Edited February 5, 2018 by HomesteadWrestling aoberlin and wrestleliferfan 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 8 hours ago, HomesteadWrestling said: 1. Not cost the IHSAA any additional money or cut into any potential revenue 2. The length of the tournaments can't increase Just curious, why cant the length of tournament matter. Could we have a 2 day tournament instead of a 1.5 day tournament? And a full 2 day tournament would generate more revenue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomesteadWrestling Posted February 5, 2018 Author Share Posted February 5, 2018 4 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said: Just curious, why cant the length of tournament matter. Could we have a 2 day tournament instead of a 1.5 day tournament? And a full 2 day tournament would generate more revenue. It has been mentioned in past posts that the IHSAA is concerned that longer tournaments could interfere with Saturday night basketball games. Also, someone mentioned something about cutting into the school day not being an option. Even Saturday at the Carroll Regional, there was a girl's basketball sectional immediately following the wrestling tournament. I am not sure why they wouldn't mix up their hosts across sports to avoid this. I also wouldn't assume that they are interested in increased revenue. On paper it sounds like a good thing but increased revenue may come at a price they aren't willing to pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 I was just saying start the state tournament at 10AM and add wrestleback rounds. It adds another session to the state tournament, which = more revenue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoberlin Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 5 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said: I was just saying start the state tournament at 10AM and add wrestleback rounds. It adds another session to the state tournament, which = more revenue. More qualifiers should equal more revenue. This is why having some stats on total number of wrestlers per state vs state qualifiers would be some good data. Wrestling Scholar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoontzDaddy Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 I appreciate the thinking outside the box... but wrestlebacks are the ONLY answer. We need to stand firm. Most ridiculous part of our state series. I just commented on class wrestling, but I’d be more inclined to lower my support of a class system if we had wrestlebacks. It’s stupid that we don’t have them and we don’t have the best wrestlers at our state tournament. We are usually missing close to 10 of the best wrestlers in the state at Bankers Life because of our lack of wrestle backs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomesteadWrestling Posted February 5, 2018 Author Share Posted February 5, 2018 6 hours ago, Wrestling Scholar said: I was just saying start the state tournament at 10AM and add wrestleback rounds. It adds another session to the state tournament, which = more revenue. That would be great if it was an option. I think Ohio starts their tournament on Thursday (or goes into Sunday, I can't remember, but I do believe it is 3 days). I just think we need to add some bullets to our chamber. If we go in with one idea and it gets shut down, what is Plan B? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, HomesteadWrestling said: That would be great if it was an option. I think Ohio starts their tournament on Thursday (or goes into Sunday, I can't remember, but I do believe it is 3 days). I just think we need to add some bullets to our chamber. If we go in with one idea and it gets shut down, what is Plan B? Missouri, Ohio and Iowa run a 3 day tournament with full wrestlebacks and multiple classes. A lot do it in two. So what are they using Bankers Life for on Saturday morning. Nothing. Edited February 5, 2018 by Wrestling Scholar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomesteadWrestling Posted February 5, 2018 Author Share Posted February 5, 2018 47 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said: So what are they using Bankers Life for on Saturday morning. Nothing. I thought you meant Friday morning at 10 am. The tournament (quarterfinals, session II) already starts at 9:30 am on Saturday morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 2 minutes ago, HomesteadWrestling said: I thought you meant Friday morning at 10 am. The tournament (quarterfinals, session II) already starts at 9:30 am on Saturday morning. I meant Friday. sorry to confuse. But why not. Most of the kids wrestling are missing school. Have a Friday morning session. Make semi-finals and consolation quarters on Friday night. Have a real ticket round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoberlin Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 1 hour ago, Wrestling Scholar said: I meant Friday. sorry to confuse. But why not. Most of the kids wrestling are missing school. Have a Friday morning session. Make semi-finals and consolation quarters on Friday night. Have a real ticket round. Okay so here is a possibility if we can get them to bite on extending Friday since there is absolutely no kid that will be focusing on school that day that has to wrestle anyways. We qualify 32 to state. 8 from each semi-state. You make the ticket round you go. No need to extend semi-state. Wrestle on 4 mats all day long. If you win your second round match you are top 4. You lose you are top 8. Next round you wrestle to see who is going for 5th. At State 1 vs 8, 2 vs 7, 3 vs 6, 4 vs 5. Wrestle the first day until we are down to 8 and then those are our medal winners. This would also increase revenue since there will be more kids. Not sure if this is a huge factor not. Right now according to Caprino math of 5 years ago we qualify 5.19% of the kids to State. Which is the lowest in the country. If we go to 32 kids at each weight class we go to about 10% which puts us at about number 9 out of 49 states that have wrestling. I get that this may water down what a state qualifier is but this would definitely help get the top guys to state every year. When you talk about a wrestler don't you already say he was a ticket rounder last year. Which makes him on the radar for rankings and on the verge anyways. Also it would make being a medal winner that much more prestigious. Then the "the region" and "the county"can get more through so their number 8s can take out "the fort" number 1s and everyone is happy. Wrestling Scholar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueBolt Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 Uhhh NO... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ontherise219 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 17 hours ago, HomesteadWrestling said: Now before you respond and say how this is such a terrible idea, let me just say this - I am not sure if I am even in favor of this. Like a few other contributors have shared, we have to take a different angle. The IHSAA isn't responding to the current request. So instead of throwing the same bait into the water and hoping to catch the fish, maybe we switch the bait. I was going to just give a quick video explanation because I don't want to type all of this, but let's think through some of this and pull out all the pros and cons. Try to read through all of it so we can have productive dialogue. I think if we are going to improve our state tournament or reach the desired end, it will have to be a gradual shift. The seeding idea certainly isn't a perfect solution but I think of the BCS in college football and I think we hear less complaining with the playoff than we did with an outright one and done championship game. If our case is going to be strong, I believe it needs to accomplish the following: 1. Not cost the IHSAA any additional money or cut into any potential revenue 2. The length of the tournaments can't increase When I considered those two factors, I thought a "seed meeting" could help avoid some of the issues we are facing in semi-state. Keyword: some, not all. I cringe at the idea of reproducing the already painful sectional seed meeting but maybe it could look different. Perhaps coaches do a lot of legwork ahead of time and submit their data to a seeding committee. I am not sure how we could do this effectively but I thought you could have IHSWCA member coaches volunteer to seed a tournament they are not associated with. There would not be a physical seed meeting where all participating schools show up and talk in circles for three hours. Could the committee members have ulterior motives and try and miss-seed a regional so their kid gets a better draw down the line? Well hopefully a multiple-member committee would provide checks and balances to prevent this from happening. A strong ethics code and pairing coaches with regionals that don't feed into their semi-state could also be beneficial. If a coach doesn't wish to seed his wrestler or neglects to do his homework and submit the appropriate information, then his kids have to suffer at his lack of care. It would also help if the committee members were knowledgeable, invested in learning about all the teams and wrestlers and could get close to the right seeds even if a coach didn't do his job. When it comes to semi-state, I had one additional idea. You don't necessarily seed 1-16. Maybe you seed the 4 1's, 4 2's, etc. Then, you could still have a random computer draw if we found that to be an effective protocol. Seeding criteria: I think it could be similar to the sectional criteria but it would be awesome if it was a little more intelligent. We have such great minds on here that put together great stats, rankings and information. Now obviously none of that is flawless but the NCAA seems to get their championship tournaments right and they use math and logic, along with results, to determine proper allocations and seeds. But I am just dreaming here. I'm just thinking of the case where the "weak regional" has a kid with a 40-1 record and you have a kid who has gone through a meat-grinder of a schedule and has 7 losses. Well if we don't have head-to-head or common opponent, I guess weak schedule wins. Hopefully at the regional level we should have plenty of head-to-head and common opponents but it's not a lock. It may also be helpful to realign some regionals and try to balance things a little better on a competitive basis. Again, I am dreaming but I am trying to think of solutions that meet the two criteria above. Whatever solution we find, if we ever find it, is just a means to the end. What I think most of us want in the end is the best 16 kids at state, with the best 8 standing on the podium. Even if we decide that "wrestlebacks" is still the best proposal to take to the IHSAA each year, let's call it something different. It is a term exclusive to our sport and these people don't understand how our sport operates. THEY DON'T GET IT. They ain't one of us. So at the very least, let's hire a marketing firm and develop a better brand, image and slogan for "wrestlebacks". I like it. The ihsaa likes the system in place it will be hard to tear down their entire tournament. One we feel is broken that they do not feel is broken. I would say semi state seeding and state seeding of the champs keeping the same formula. If wrestlebacks are a non starter I think this system has a good idea. Plus I posted something similar last week aoberlin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoberlin Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 Let me state that I like it also. If it improves it and gets a more accurate set of kids to state I am for it. Plus the guy that posted it is a swell fella. ontherise219 and HomesteadWrestling 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomesteadWrestling Posted February 6, 2018 Author Share Posted February 6, 2018 3 hours ago, ontherise219 said: Plus I posted something similar last week Didn't realize that, lol. Should have posted my ideas here as a response, my bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ontherise219 Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 2 hours ago, HomesteadWrestling said: Didn't realize that, lol. Should have posted my ideas here as a response, my bad. I like we are on the same page. We are starting a revolution Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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