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If wrestling was a class sport........

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    I'm not all for the class wrestling. I understand the points made, I just don't believe in them. It's all about a person's point of view and how they feel. If I was on the other side of the fence, I see some good things from class wrestling. I mean how long was Mater Dei the top dogs..? Mater Dei is a perfect example! If we had class wrestling, they would've been in the smaller class every year dominating, & they could've also been dominating the larger class(es) as well. I believe it's the hard work & dedication you're willing to put into the sport that pays off. The dedication is needed from the wrestling & the coach. Chris Cooper built Columbus East, Tonte built Perry Meridian, Snyder built Brownsburg, the list goes on. Champions pay the price. 

    I do think there should be wrestle backs & seeding at state & semi state. Seed the first 4 champions from each semi state & regionals at state & semi state. Wrestle backs in my opinion should start after ticket round at semi state & after quarter finals at state, only to place as well as 3rd. 

    As much as I think this is the most fair, best way to go about IHSAA placing at Bankers, I also wouldn't be upset if they didn't switch things up. I'm perfectly fine with the way things are. I value the history of IHSAA ticket round. I think they actually used to have wrestle backs in the 70s & 80s, idk, but I think ticket round is an awesome, exciting, historic value of Indiana wrestling. 

    Two quotes I'd like to share with you all from a former coach of mine I miss dearly: 

"You gotta pay the cost to be the boss" & "To be the best, you gotta beat the best"           -John Anthony Maio

     This kind of goes hand in hand what I was saying earlier... It doesn't matter if you're a small school or if you have a stud ticket round match, you have to achieve these two quotes to the be the champion. 

    Oh yeah... and as far as the college scouting... college coaches can receive film from anyone they're interested in from a coach. It again goes back to the work you're willing to put in. Now a days I'm sure most college coaches are doing their scouting at Fargo, Super 32, Flo Nationals, etc. If you're not willing to put the time in there & succeed in those tournaments, or compete to succeed, or even show up, then that's on that wrestler. A lot of the D3, NAIA, & JUCO coaches in that area will be there to see your ticket round, or Friday night loss. 

Coach T.McGinley 

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5 minutes ago, Tony McGinley said:

    I'm not all for the class wrestling. I understand the points made, I just don't believe in them. It's all about a person's point of view and how they feel. If I was on the other side of the fence, I see some good things from class wrestling. I mean how long was Mater Dei the top dogs..? Mater Dei is a perfect example! If we had class wrestling, they would've been in the smaller class every year dominating, & they could've also been dominating the larger class(es) as well. I believe it's the hard work & dedication you're willing to put into the sport that pays off. The dedication is needed from the wrestling & the coach. Chris Cooper built Columbus East, Tonte built Perry Meridian, Snyder built Brownsburg, the list goes on. Champions pay the price. 

    I do think there should be wrestle backs & seeding at state & semi state. Seed the first 4 champions from each semi state & regionals at state & semi state. Wrestle backs in my opinion should start after ticket round at semi state & after quarter finals at state, only to place as well as 3rd. 

    As much as I think this is the most fair, best way to go about IHSAA placing at Bankers, I also wouldn't be upset if they didn't switch things up. I'm perfectly fine with the way things are. I value the history of IHSAA ticket round. I think they actually used to have wrestle backs in the 70s & 80s, idk, but I think ticket round is an awesome, exciting, historic value of Indiana wrestling. 

    Two quotes I'd like to share with you all from a former coach of mine I miss dearly: 

"You gotta pay the cost to be the boss" & "To be the best, you gotta beat the best"           -John Anthony Maio

     This kind of goes hand in hand what I was saying earlier... It doesn't matter if you're a small school or if you have a stud ticket round match, you have to achieve these two quotes to the be the champion. 

    Oh yeah... and as far as the college scouting... college coaches can receive film from anyone they're interested in from a coach. It again goes back to the work you're willing to put in. Now a days I'm sure most college coaches are doing their scouting at Fargo, Super 32, Flo Nationals, etc. If you're not willing to put the time in there & succeed in those tournaments, or compete to succeed, or even show up, then that's on that wrestler. A lot of the D3, NAIA, & JUCO coaches in that area will be there to see your ticket round, or Friday night loss. 

Coach T.McGinley 

I don't think you can be anti-class wrestling and pro-wrestleback...you said it yourself--to be the best you gotta beat the best. Why get a second opportunity to qualify for state? Is it because that's how wrestling is done across the country? If so, its also classed across the country.  

 

I would argue that a lot of small schools are dedicated and putting in the work as well. I think a point that some on this board are missing is what about the small school that does everything right--open rooms, opportunities for additional training, etc, only to see their future star(s) enroll at a different high school when they enter the ninth grade? Are they suddenly "not dedicated"? 

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10 minutes ago, Tony McGinley said:

    I'm not all for the class wrestling. I understand the points made, I just don't believe in them. It's all about a person's point of view and how they feel. If I was on the other side of the fence, I see some good things from class wrestling. I mean how long was Mater Dei the top dogs..? Mater Dei is a perfect example! If we had class wrestling, they would've been in the smaller class every year dominating, & they could've also been dominating the larger class(es) as well. I believe it's the hard work & dedication you're willing to put into the sport that pays off. The dedication is needed from the wrestling & the coach. Chris Cooper built Columbus East, Tonte built Perry Meridian, Snyder built Brownsburg, the list goes on. Champions pay the price. 

    I do think there should be wrestle backs & seeding at state & semi state. Seed the first 4 champions from each semi state & regionals at state & semi state. Wrestle backs in my opinion should start after ticket round at semi state & after quarter finals at state, only to place as well as 3rd. 

    As much as I think this is the most fair, best way to go about IHSAA placing at Bankers, I also wouldn't be upset if they didn't switch things up. I'm perfectly fine with the way things are. I value the history of IHSAA ticket round. I think they actually used to have wrestle backs in the 70s & 80s, idk, but I think ticket round is an awesome, exciting, historic value of Indiana wrestling. 

    Two quotes I'd like to share with you all from a former coach of mine I miss dearly: 

"You gotta pay the cost to be the boss" & "To be the best, you gotta beat the best"           -John Anthony Maio

     This kind of goes hand in hand what I was saying earlier... It doesn't matter if you're a small school or if you have a stud ticket round match, you have to achieve these two quotes to the be the champion. 

    Oh yeah... and as far as the college scouting... college coaches can receive film from anyone they're interested in from a coach. It again goes back to the work you're willing to put in. Now a days I'm sure most college coaches are doing their scouting at Fargo, Super 32, Flo Nationals, etc. If you're not willing to put the time in there & succeed in those tournaments, or compete to succeed, or even show up, then that's on that wrestler. A lot of the D3, NAIA, & JUCO coaches in that area will be there to see your ticket round, or Friday night loss. 

Coach T.McGinley 

Why is Mater Dei successful as a small school? Are they the ONLY small school that "will pay the price?" Are they the only small school that work hard and have dedication? Just curious your thoughts on why more small schools aren't as successful or even in the same ballpark as Mater Dei.

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5 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Why is Mater Dei successful as a small school? Are they the ONLY small school that "will pay the price?" Are they the only small school that work hard and have dedication? Just curious your thoughts on why more small schools aren't as successful or even in the same ballpark as Mater Dei.

Can we agree that EMD is an outlier?  There are many advantages they have over other small schools and that could be a thread of its own.  

 

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1 hour ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

See my explanation on how bigger schools with fans not advancing is the reason attendance fell.     But,  using basketball fan attendance as a comparison is comparing  apples to oranges.  I think very likely, you would see an upswing in attendance if you classed wrestling.

You are right bball and wrestling arent the same, especially in Indiana. For us to be on a near level playing field as it relates to attendence is huge. I think you are discounting tge significance of that. There is no way we approach 10k attendance for any one class, in a 2 or 3 class system. To assume that we could increase attendance or even maintain  by classing isnt supported by evidence.

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MD is successful because they have had a feeder program for 40-50 years.  The coaches in the feeder system are all former wrestlers.  the hundreds of volunteers that help out are MD alum.  My sons school has 40 kids on their wrestling team.  That's more than many high schools.  You are now seeing grandkids of former MD wrestlers coming up through the system.  It is just a way of life on the west side.  Do they work harder than other small schools?  Maybe, maybe not.  But the foundation was laid generations ago.  They are the outlier and if they opted to wrestle in their enrollment class, they would not lose.  But they choose to go against schools 4-5x their size and win the majority of the time.

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Pug,

   I think the wrestle backs are different than class wrestling b/c as I stated you can only wrestle back to get 3rd at best. I think the best competitors should get a chance to go to state. Just like I said I think if you lose Friday, you’re out. The best you can do is 3rd from losing Saturday morning. There’s a difference between wrestling back to beat that #1 guy in the state at bankers and being the best, then wrestling in a 1A class & winning state. Do you understand my point of view? You see kids at the time lose in the finals at semi state, then turn around & beat them at state in the finals. If the #4 kid upsets the #2 ticket round match, he should imo get a chance to wrestle back & win a state title the next week. Opposed to a 1A kid who’s ranked 10th, & get’s a “state title” who couldn’t beat the kids ranked 1st-9th. The whole enrolling into a different school at 9th grade level is a different subject imo. That’s on the head coach connecting with that kid’s parent, putting in the hard work as a coach, & winning over that kid. Winning over that kid at a small age as well. Building it from the ground up. 

Joe,

    I’m not saying smaller schools don’t put in the hard work. I never said that at al whatsoever. Heck Yorktown has had much success in the last 8 years or so I think. Not Mater Dei’s level by no means, but they could’ve won multiple individual titles at Bankers had they performed well. Y2 idk why small schools aren’t having that success. Maybe that’s a question small school coaches Goebel, McCormick, & EMD’s current coach should be asked..? 

AJ & Y2,

    AJ you only put Mater Dei as an “outlier” b/c you choose to. You guys if you want my honest opinion of why those small school’s success reached those levels & current small schools don’t? And there’s probably more I’m forgetting, but I think it’s because their kids worked harder. There’s no such thing as “working just as hard” or “putting in that same work”. Their kids worked harder, they were pushed harder by each other & the coaches in the room, & no disrespect but lastly, they were outcoached. 

Edited by Tony McGinley

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15 minutes ago, MD92 said:

MD is successful because they have had a feeder program for 40-50 years.  The coaches in the feeder system are all former wrestlers.  the hundreds of volunteers that help out are MD alum.  My sons school has 40 kids on their wrestling team.  That's more than many high schools.  You are now seeing grandkids of former MD wrestlers coming up through the system.  It is just a way of life on the west side.  Do they work harder than other small schools?  Maybe, maybe not.  But the foundation was laid generations ago.  They are the outlier and if they opted to wrestle in their enrollment class, they would not lose.  But they choose to go against schools 4-5x their size and win the majority of the time.

And that they are a private school in a large city that pulls quality kids in from that large geographic regions spanning 2 states and can pull kids in due the to prior success of the program.

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32 minutes ago, Westforkwhite said:

You are right bball and wrestling arent the same, especially in Indiana. For us to be on a near level playing field as it relates to attendence is huge. I think you are discounting tge significance of that. There is no way we approach 10k attendance for any one class, in a 2 or 3 class system. To assume that we could increase attendance or even maintain  by classing isnt supported by evidence.

What's the 10K attendance mark have to do with it.  I think the comparison should be   (1 class attendance  is x),   and (2 or 3 class combined attendance would be >  X (1 class attendance).  I think you would obviously see more family and friends of wrestlers go if you had more participants.  You still would host at Bankers life, its still one tournament with just 3 or 2 classes.

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Tony,

I understand what you’re saying. My point is every time someone mentions class wrestling, it’s met with a “work harder” response. You can’t have it both ways. Maybe the kid from the big school should “work harder” and not lose in the round to go.

For the record, I’m for class wrestling and wrestlebacks. I think both would make our sport better. The gap between the “haves” and “have nots” has never been greater than it is right now. 

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30 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

And that they are a private school in a large city that pulls quality kids in from that large geographic regions spanning 2 states and can pull kids in due the to prior success of the program.

Except that isn't the case.  They only have kids that came up through the MD feeder system.  We've been going over this for years.  The kids in the MD program come straight from the west side catholic grade schools that feed into MD.  they don't come from KY or IL or from the EVSC schools.

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4 minutes ago, MD92 said:

Except that isn't the case.  They only have kids that came up through the MD feeder system.  We've been going over this for years.  The kids in the MD program come straight from the west side catholic grade schools that feed into MD.  they don't come from KY or IL or from the EVSC schools.

Do the west side catholic grade schools get students from  from KY, IL and the area of the EVSC schools?

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IL and KY, no, not that I am aware of.  I know of kids that went to Holy Name catholic school in Henderson, KY that ended up at Memorial, but not at MD.  Memorial is much closer to Henderson than MD is so it wouldn't make sense for those kids in Henderson to go to MD.  Since MD is in Vanderburgh county, then the kids would have the option of attending an EVSC school.  So in that sense, yes, the kids at the west side catholic feeder schools are from the area of EVSC schools.  there are numerous kids that go to the west side catholic feeder schools that end up at Reitz or Central or North every year.

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10 minutes ago, MD92 said:

IL and KY, no, not that I am aware of.  I know of kids that went to Holy Name catholic school in Henderson, KY that ended up at Memorial, but not at MD.  Memorial is much closer to Henderson than MD is so it wouldn't make sense for those kids in Henderson to go to MD.  Since MD is in Vanderburgh county, then the kids would have the option of attending an EVSC school.  So in that sense, yes, the kids at the west side catholic feeder schools are from the area of EVSC schools.  there are numerous kids that go to the west side catholic feeder schools that end up at Reitz or Central or North every year.

As a Bosse grad and Castle parent I can tell you the MD92 is feeding you a bunch of......welll.......the truth.  Mater Dei does it old school.  In house.  Invites students in the system to participate, especially when needs arise in high school, and gets it done their way.  Try to repeat the formula.  It will take 25 years.

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4 hours ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

See my explanation on how bigger schools with fans not advancing is the reason attendance fell.     But,  using basketball fan attendance as a comparison is comparing  apples to oranges.  I think very likely, you would see an upswing in attendance if you classed wrestling.

There has not been any evidence presented on this site that would support your expected outcome. Is there an apples to apples comparison that would suggest a rise in attendance by classing? Minus this you are making assumptions that would best be described as magical thinking.

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I have seen classed wrestling first hand was in the Army and lived in Georgia, North Carolina, Idaho, Ohio, and indiana and let me tell ya Indiana has the best system I have seen. Let me list some observations. These are just my opinion no disrespect intended.

1. It seemed in the 4 classed state I lived in downplayed anyone not in the biggest class. Meaning that from my experiences ppl only cared about the state champions from the largest class.

2. Seen this in all these states but I'll use a North Carolina example. So NC has 3 classes in wrestling. They have all 3 finals for a weight at one time. There ia simply nothing like a state final matchup under the lights in Indiana. 

3. All 4 states I witnesses the state finals matches ending for any given weight class and immediately heard talk from spectators and wrestlers in regards to who the best kid in the weight class is or who would beat who. Bunch of speculation on matches that most likely won't ever happen.

4. College prospects; im no college coach but know some and the guys I know put more stock into the bigger class state champs. Which isn't always correct and not every coach does it but in general im comfortable saying it.

5. From the kids perspective it has to be terrible. Think about it, you work your tail off in a season, devote your life to a goal and 2 or 3 others can accomplish the same thing? I think having 1 true state champion in any individual sport is the only way. Your the best 120 lbs wrestler, your the fastest 100 meter dash runner, fastest 50 freestyle swimmer etc having several diminishes what it means to be a state champion. 

For me what I saw with my own eyes in the classed states I lived in. Was great kids, great wrestlers, nice ppl, but questions at the end and much less meaning.

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One more thing to address some questions I failed to in my first post. In Idaho, Georgia, and North Carolina, they would do pretty much a area (like sectionals) then a Regional, then State. I was very suprised in my opinion what this system did is widen the gap. Kids that would not make it out of a Indiana Regional would be on the mat at the state finals. It was very clear to me who the state champions were going to be. In fact often times the 3 best kids all won there class with little real competition. Not all the time but at least 70% in those states. Ohio was another animal very good wrestling across the board there.

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3 hours ago, Tony McGinley said:

 

    AJ you only put Mater Dei as an “outlier” b/c you choose to. You guys if you want my honest opinion of why those small school’s success reached those levels & current small schools don’t? And there’s probably more I’m forgetting, but I think it’s because their kids worked harder. There’s no such thing as “working just as hard” or “putting in that same work”. Their kids worked harder, they were pushed harder by each other & the coaches in the room, & no disrespect but lastly, they were outcoached. 

I would hate to bring facts to the argument, but here is the definition of an outlier

3.Statistics.
an observation that is well outside of the expected range of valuesin a study or experiment, and which is often discarded from thedata set:

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1. It seemed in the 4 classed state I lived in downplayed anyone not in the biggest class. Meaning that from my experiences ppl only cared about the state champions from the largest class.
Did the smaller schools recognize their champions? Did they get their pictures on the wall? 

2. Seen this in all these states but I'll use a North Carolina example. So NC has 3 classes in wrestling. They have all 3 finals for a weight at one time. There ia simply nothing like a state final matchup under the lights in Indiana. 
Goodness, three matches going on how dare they! That would be a travesty.

3. All 4 states I witnesses the state finals matches ending for any given weight class and immediately heard talk from spectators and wrestlers in regards to who the best kid in the weight class is or who would beat who. Bunch of speculation on matches that most likely won't ever happen.
Oh no, people talking about wrestling? Please that is horrible. In most states there are tournaments during the season and out of season where these kids meet up. I can't imagine those kids going through life not knowing if they were a true champion.

4. College prospects; im no college coach but know some and the guys I know put more stock into the bigger class state champs. Which isn't always correct and not every coach does it but in general im comfortable saying it.
Is that bad? What is so bad about that?

5. From the kids perspective it has to be terrible. Think about it, you work your tail off in a season, devote your life to a goal and 2 or 3 others can accomplish the same thing? I think having 1 true state champion in any individual sport is the only way. Your the best 120 lbs wrestler, your the fastest 100 meter dash runner, fastest 50 freestyle swimmer etc having several diminishes what it means to be a state champion. 

It's just horrible that 45 states do that, so demeaning to the kids. There are thousands of state champions walking around aimlessly wondering "am I a real true champion?" It's just so horrible for those kids suffering day in and day out with that thought. I don't know how Cael Sanderson did it, not sure how Kyle Dake did it, or Logan Stieber. Those guys have faced so much adversity in life coming from a classed wrestling state.

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48 minutes ago, Ryan11p said:

One more thing to address some questions I failed to in my first post. In Idaho, Georgia, and North Carolina, they would do pretty much a area (like sectionals) then a Regional, then State. I was very suprised in my opinion what this system did is widen the gap. Kids that would not make it out of a Indiana Regional would be on the mat at the state finals. It was very clear to me who the state champions were going to be. In fact often times the 3 best kids all won there class with little real competition. Not all the time but at least 70% in those states. Ohio was another animal very good wrestling across the board there.

Indiana is closer to Ohio than the other two states in terms of wrestling quality and depth. Our state finals with two classes would be very competitive. Take a look at some of the potential match-ups in a two classed state. 

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3 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Indiana is closer to Ohio than the other two states in terms of wrestling quality and depth. Our state finals with two classes would be very competitive. Take a look at some of the potential match-ups in a two classed state. 

In a 2 class system, i think you are totally correct. Ive never thought the dilution of talent was a very good argument against that format. The fears of many are that IHSAA may see fit to create 4 or 5 classes as they dont view wrestling differently than other sports. I think the dilution argument picks up momentum as it relates to a 4-6 class system.

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3 hours ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

And that they are a private school in a large city that pulls quality kids in from that large geographic regions spanning 2 states and can pull kids in due the to prior success of the program.

Every couple of years, a fact check is required

 

106- Cole Ross attended Corpus Christi, wrestled for Mater Dei junior wildcats (mdjw)

113- Blake Boarman attended Corpus Christi, wrestled for mdjw.  His father, pat was a sq for md 

120- Kane Egli attended st Philip, wrestled for mdjw.  Mom was a md grad

126- clay Egli.  See Kane 

132- Eli dickens was Home schooled!  Did not attend a md feeder!

138- Matt Lee attended Corpus Christi.  Wrestled in the feeder league.

145- Scott fits attended st Philip. Wrestled for mdjw 

152- McCartney Parkinson attended st Philip. Wrestled for mdjw.  His dad, Jeff, was an sq for md 

160- Nolan Weidner attended st joe and wrestled for mdjw.  Mom and dad are md grads

170- Blake chandler attended west side catholic and wrestled for mdjw

182- will Schuler attended resurrection and wrestled for mdjw.  Mom and dad are md grads

195- Robbie Helfrich attended st Philip and wrestled for mdjw.  Mom and dad are md grads

220- Michael boots attended resurrection and wrestled for mdjw.  Dad was a 2x sq for md.  Boots family is in the Indiana wrestling hall of fame.

285-  Roman graves attended st Philip and wrestled for mdjw

md’s entire coaching staff graduated from md.  

Rather than drawing talent from the public schools, in evansville, memorial and Mater Dei actually supply the public schools.  There are scores of examples where Kid’s grew up in the md or mhs feeder league and ended up wrestling, at a varsity level, for the public schools.

Edited by hook and half

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1 hour ago, Y2CJ41 said:

There are thousands of state champions walking around aimlessly wondering "am I a real true champion?" It's just so horrible for those kids suffering day in and day out with that thought. I don't know how Cael Sanderson did it, not sure how Kyle Dake did it, or Logan Stieber. Those guys have faced so much adversity in life coming from a classed wrestling state.

I know a state champion from Michigan. His name is Louis. One day I asked him, "Lou, what happens if someone says you are only a state champion of a classed state?" His reply was pretty much gold. He replied, "I would say, what about you? Are you a state champion?" That's probably how most of them feel about it.

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12 minutes ago, Galagore said:

I know a state champion from Michigan. His name is Louis. One day I asked him, "Lou, what happens if someone says you are only a state champion of a classed state?" His reply was pretty much gold. He replied, "I would say, what about you? Are you a state champion?" That's probably how most of them feel about it.

This has always been a bad argument against class. On the flip side there is an added bonus to being "the" state champ. Not meaningful enough to be a strong argument against class, in my opinion.

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what would the tournament look like in a classed system ? would there be a need for a regional or semi state or regional and semi state losing 1/2 or 2/3 of the wrestlers depending on 2 or 3 class system ?

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