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If wrestling was a class sport........

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6 minutes ago, TeamGarcia said:

Let’s see <Pound Sign>HendricksCountySmellsFunny :ph34r: 

 

yep that looks edited by someone 

Where I'm from that's shady! 

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So ... what was we chatting about here ? Ohhhh... that’s right Class Wrestling. 

Carry on fellas... Carry on... ! Sorry to interrupt . Might get called out again for taking over Topics ... lol

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   When it comes to Class wrestling there is no right or wrong. But if there is a way for more children to get into the Sport of Wrestling I am all for it. If it takes handing out ribbons and medals to every one then so be it. The Class idea isn't simply to help the "Small" schools be competitive in a watered down version of State. It also may help the larger inner City Schools attract one more guy. At the Perry regional this weekend there were several Schools barely represented that would not be in the same "Class" size wise as Perry, Roncali, Warren Central etc.  Wrestling has absolutely made a huge impact on my life personally. I would not be where I am today without it. I can assure you it wasn't easy to get my ass handed to me over and over. I wanted to kill my buddy for talking me into it. Turns out I am thrilled that he did. If there is a way to get more people into the Sport then I say please do. If there is another way then do that also.

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1 hour ago, asbury4040 said:

Y2, you win. Here's your trophy. I've been told to give in or you will ban me. To the rest of you I say lighten up. It's my opinion. Keep hiding behind your keyboard. Anyone who knows me knows the truth. Here's a question. Where will you hold your class tournament? It wouldn't be Bankers. The fairgrounds? Oh... ya, We can have it in Ft. Wayne. Nobody would go except parents n family. Whatever you guys want though. If you keep crying enough we will give in. Just like everything else in the world. We're erasing history, tearing down monuments, etc.... why? To appease the soft society. Again, if you want to make this personal then reach out to me. We can have adult dialogue. Right! 

Why wouldn't it be held at Bankers? All State Championship Classes for basketball are held there and it works? It'd work. 

Don't compare this to the tearing down of monuments! That was done in hate. Class wrestling is actually the exact opposite purpose.

Adult dialogue? I don't think anywhere in this conversation have you had a good adult debate with anyone. This wasn't intended to demean others opinions. I started this thread to actually  hear pros and cons and gain information. All your replies are less opinion and more tearing down other's opinions. 

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26 minutes ago, wrestleliferfan said:

Why wouldn't it be held at Bankers? All State Championship Classes for basketball are held there and it works? It'd work. 

Don't compare this to the tearing down of monuments! That was done in hate. Class wrestling is actually the exact opposite purpose.

Adult dialogue? I don't think anywhere in this conversation have you had a good adult debate with anyone. This wasn't intended to demean others opinions. I started this thread to actually  hear pros and cons and gain information. All your replies are less opinion and more tearing down other's opinions. 

In order of your points:

1) The Basketball games at Bankers are half empty to three quarters empty. I'm sure there have been exceptions. 

2)My point to the monuments was if you scream loud enough ( like the admin did for basketball) you will get class wrestling. I am against class. I stated why w the soft comments. 

3)There is no hate. There is nothing outta bounds. The idea of class wrestling sucks. I respect the fact some of you want class wrestling. I respect the ones who don't. I got fired up when it got personal and my post were being edited. At the end of the day I think it's not good to give everyone trophies n ribbons. I am sorry for getting off topic in some of the fodder. Enough said. Good luck to everyone this wknd! 

Edited by asbury4040

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Ah, finally just in time to muddy the waters of the year-end tournament and turn strangers into dire enemies!!

I am still on the #SingleClass side of the argument after several years of debating the topic.  I do concede some good points to the multiple class side, or will at least admit that it could possibly work to solve some issues.

My main argument is that the goal is never really clearly defined.  What is it that Y2 and others believe that a move to class wrestling will fix?  Is it to have more high-end wrestlers?  Provide college wrestling opportunities to more kids?  Increase the sheer number of wrestlers in the state, regardless of quality?  Raise the level of wrestling as a whole for the "average" wrestler in the state??  Is the real problem in Indiana at the small school level only?

Depending on the goal, I've offered my opinion on some others ways these problems could be solved.  I definitely don't think that class wrestling is a silver bullet for solving them all.

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2 hours ago, asbury4040 said:

Why I moved my sone is obviously none of your business or anybody else's. You're making it personal and that's out of bounds. 

He's the only one allowed to make it personal.  If you go personal against him, he will ban you.

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2 hours ago, asbury4040 said:

Where I'm from that's shady! 

@TeamGarcia

It's called a word filter to keep this a G rated website and not get blocked by schools. Obviously neither of you can act like adults so I have to put those in place. 

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1 hour ago, base said:

Ah, finally just in time to muddy the waters of the year-end tournament and turn strangers into dire enemies!!

I am still on the #SingleClass side of the argument after several years of debating the topic.  I do concede some good points to the multiple class side, or will at least admit that it could possibly work to solve some issues.

My main argument is that the goal is never really clearly defined.  What is it that Y2 and others believe that a move to class wrestling will fix?  Is it to have more high-end wrestlers?  Provide college wrestling opportunities to more kids?  Increase the sheer number of wrestlers in the state, regardless of quality?  Raise the level of wrestling as a whole for the "average" wrestler in the state??  Is the real problem in Indiana at the small school level only?

Depending on the goal, I've offered my opinion on some others ways these problems could be solved.  I definitely don't think that class wrestling is a silver bullet for solving them all.

No one has ever said it was the silver bullet to anything. Where ever you came up with that was not on this board.

The benefits are many to adding ONE class with the possibility for another ONE later.

1. Coaches will be more likely to stay and build small school programs. Some of the top coaches in the state like Leroy Vega, Brad Harper, and Jim Tonte all started at small schools and moved on to much bigger ones for a variety of reasons.

2. More recognition for kids that have heart and determination. To qualify for state you would still need to be in the top 10% of wrestlers in the state.

3. Growth of smaller programs. With an increase in 75% of the state qualifiers growth at the small schools would happen.

 

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1 hour ago, base said:

Ah, finally just in time to muddy the waters of the year-end tournament and turn strangers into dire enemies!!

I am still on the #SingleClass side of the argument after several years of debating the topic.  I do concede some good points to the multiple class side, or will at least admit that it could possibly work to solve some issues.

My main argument is that the goal is never really clearly defined.  What is it that Y2 and others believe that a move to class wrestling will fix?  Is it to have more high-end wrestlers?  Provide college wrestling opportunities to more kids?  Increase the sheer number of wrestlers in the state, regardless of quality?  Raise the level of wrestling as a whole for the "average" wrestler in the state??  Is the real problem in Indiana at the small school level only?

Depending on the goal, I've offered my opinion on some others ways these problems could be solved.  I definitely don't think that class wrestling is a silver bullet for solving them all.

Hey shoot me those suggestions in a PM I'm not trying to stir the pot I just usally like to see certain ideas 

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While I’m not big on classing Indiana Wrestling, I can see the benefits of it. The arguments of kids needing to work harder instead of classing the tournament is weak because this next weekend, you’ll see kids who work their butts off not even break the bank because of draws. It’s not the wrestlers who are flawed in this sense, it’s the system. There are no wrestlebacks in place, no classes, etc., so we’re not seeing the very best Indiana has to offer. While I agree some small schools have created a victim language in believing they cannot compete with big schools, some literally will just never break through. It’s true, though, that making state can transform wrestlers. I’ve seen it first hand with a wrestler who qualifies that no one or even himself thought he would, then the next year he’s in the finals launching a Purple Hulk. So, class wrestling could potentially have major benefit in the talent pool. You never know until it happens, until then, it’s going to take a leader like Gary Black to transform a small school program and bring them to prominence. Guys like that are few and far between.

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50 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

@TeamGarcia

It's called a word filter to keep this a G rated website and not get blocked by schools. Obviously neither of you can act like adults so I have to put those in place. 

Hold up... since when does #         TheCounty is offensive to get blocked by schools ? It’s just # combined word . 

Now I get using “word filter” on some words but #       TheCounty and call a community that it smells and degrade Hendricks County is right ? 

C’mon Man you can do better than that. 

 

Carry on folks with your Class Wrestling debate while “the Wayne” & TheCounty negotiate these Sanctions. 

Edited by TeamGarcia

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54 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

@TeamGarcia

It's called a word filter to keep this a G rated website and not get blocked by schools. Obviously neither of you can act like adults so I have to put those in place. 

its called dictatorship, censorship, discrimination, arrogance.....lots of things including offensive to all hendricks county residents to say it smells funny.  agsin an attack on our # is an attack on our people and the people wont stand for it !!!  

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43 minutes ago, JMILL said:

its called dictatorship, censorship, discrimination, arrogance.....lots of things including offensive to all hendricks county residents to say it smells funny.  agsin an attack on our # is an attack on our people and the people wont stand for it !!!  

That’s it ... I’m unleashing TheCounty Knight ... He’ll help us ! 

 

 

P.S. ...  @Fabio Jr. is our TheCounty Knight just made him that cause he’s apart of TheCounty N.W.O...

Get “the Wayne” ! 

 

Carry on with your Class Wrestling ... don’t mind us..... keep chatting fellas ! 

Edited by TeamGarcia

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4 hours ago, Fabio Jr. said:

Hey shoot me those suggestions in a PM I'm not trying to stir the pot I just usally like to see certain ideas 

@Fabio Jr. last year WestFork did a great job breaking the class discussion up into several different arguments

I don’t agree with Joe’s points listed above that it would increase participation, and although I’m all for recognizing kids that exhibit heart and determination - I don’t agree that placement at a wrestling tournament is the best measure of that. I can’t disagree about keeping coaches in place, but also not convinced that it would any more than they do today

Here are some non-class wrestling ideas I posted last year to encourage an increase in skills for all Hoosier wrestlers

Here's an old post I wrote last year on the same topic....  to help raise the level of wrestling across the board. Get more of the smaller school guys trained up and on an equal footing to advance further in the state series, and be more college-ready should they choose to pursue that option

 

  Quote 

 

Open up in-season wrestling so that athletes can practice with other schools and with academies.  Expand the state finals by 2 rounds by adding 4 mats and splitting the first and second rounds between weight classes.  College coaches could choose to attend the first day (where wrestlers may be knocked out of the tourney, but may be a great fit for some colleges) or only attend the final day where they would theoretically see the "cream of the crop"

 

Pros:  

  • Wrestlers from small schools could find area cooperative training centers where they would receive excellent instruction from skilled coaches (thus increasing the wrestling skill level state-wide)
  • Wrestlers from small schools with many forfeits would have the chance to work out with varied practice partners to alleviate any discrepencies where a school only has a 106, 132, 160 and 250 lb wrestlers
  • College exposure is given to the best wrestlers regardless of school size
  • The area training centers would provide a great transition into freestyle and greco wrestling post-season for those who would continue wrestling

Cons:

  • Would need to determine how to staff and coach at the area training facilities, and provide enough of them so that travel time isn't too big of a burden.  Could potentially rotate between a cluster of area schools
  • Would the IHSAA ever allow something such as this?  Do other states restrict wrestlers to only wrestle within their school during season, or are they allowed to supplement that with Contenders/RWA/CIA/Pride/Red Cobra/Maurer-Coughlin type training?

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32 minutes ago, base said:

@Fabio Jr. last year WestFork did a great job breaking the class discussion up into several different arguments

I don’t agree with Joe’s points listed above that it would increase participation, and although I’m all for recognizing kids that exhibit heart and determination - I don’t agree that placement at a wrestling tournament is the best measure of that. I can’t disagree about keeping coaches in place, but also not convinced that it would any more than they do today

Here are some non-class wrestling ideas I posted last year to encourage an increase in skills for all Hoosier wrestlers

Here's an old post I wrote last year on the same topic....  to help raise the level of wrestling across the board. Get more of the smaller school guys trained up and on an equal footing to advance further in the state series, and be more college-ready should they choose to pursue that option

 

  Quote 

 

Open up in-season wrestling so that athletes can practice with other schools and with academies.  Expand the state finals by 2 rounds by adding 4 mats and splitting the first and second rounds between weight classes.  College coaches could choose to attend the first day (where wrestlers may be knocked out of the tourney, but may be a great fit for some colleges) or only attend the final day where they would theoretically see the "cream of the crop"

 

Pros:  

  • Wrestlers from small schools could find area cooperative training centers where they would receive excellent instruction from skilled coaches (thus increasing the wrestling skill level state-wide)
  • Wrestlers from small schools with many forfeits would have the chance to work out with varied practice partners to alleviate any discrepencies where a school only has a 106, 132, 160 and 250 lb wrestlers
  • College exposure is given to the best wrestlers regardless of school size
  • The area training centers would provide a great transition into freestyle and greco wrestling post-season for those who would continue wrestling

Cons:

  • Would need to determine how to staff and coach at the area training facilities, and provide enough of them so that travel time isn't too big of a burden.  Could potentially rotate between a cluster of area schools
  • Would the IHSAA ever allow something such as this?  Do other states restrict wrestlers to only wrestle within their school during season, or are they allowed to supplement that with Contenders/RWA/CIA/Pride/Red Cobra/Maurer-Coughlin type training?

Look at a team like wawasee or jimtown or prarie heights those kind of teams get parades and it's a huge deal when they win the team state. Classing wouldn't be an over night fix to anythive. If the kid from Crawford County gets to state even if it's 1a it would be huge deal for them. That success will bring more kids to the team. You say you cant be sure about that but from my experience I have seen it. When we took over at brownsburg we had hideous numbers for the size of school we were the season after we won team state the first time we had 20 kids come out just to be apart of the program. We  got those kids in the room and now they are solid kids that will have a chance to start their senior year. 

My end goal is to keep the sport growing the only way we get mainstream is if there is a wide appeal. Call it watering down the competition call it whatever you want to. If you argue for the single class system you're beIng selfish. You as a fan want to see it that way nothing wrong with that but it's for your entertaonmet. Get those schools I have never heard of some time to shine and I'll promise you those smaller schools will get better community involvement, more kids will try it, and we will snag a few extra wrestlers. Those wrestlers could grow up to be great officials like Tom Clark. Or open an academy like Coach Red and Coach Parrish. Or make the next competitor to Flo and Track. Maybe I'm being too optimistic but I truly feel it would grow the sport. 

 

And my selfish comment I dont mean that as a dig. If you want that it's your perogative but I believe it's just to benefit our wants as fans.

 

This might be all impossible to read I'm about half awake but that's Fabio's 2 cents 

 

Y'all do you i am more than happy to elaborate and have a discussion about my beliefs if you have any questions but I specifically don't wanna argue. I wanna pull the community together not separate it 

 

 

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11 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

No one has ever said it was the silver bullet to anything. Where ever you came up with that was not on this board.

The benefits are many to adding ONE class with the possibility for another ONE later.

1. Coaches will be more likely to stay and build small school programs. Some of the top coaches in the state like Leroy Vega, Brad Harper, and Jim Tonte all started at small schools and moved on to much bigger ones for a variety of reasons.

2. More recognition for kids that have heart and determination. To qualify for state you would still need to be in the top 10% of wrestlers in the state.

3. Growth of smaller programs. With an increase in 75% of the state qualifiers growth at the small schools would happen.

 

I find that hard to believe....seen it time and time and time and time and time again.....coaches building a good program then leaving for the big schools for greener pastures. What would it take to get these coaches to stay ? You left the small class Y2....what would it have taken for you to stay at the small schools you say you want to help ?

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2 hours ago, fearless fly said:

I find that hard to believe....seen it time and time and time and time and time again.....coaches building a good program then leaving for the big schools for greener pastures. What would it take to get these coaches to stay ? You left the small class Y2....what would it have taken for you to stay at the small schools you say you want to help ?

You find that hard to believe? Look at football for instance, at Tipton your coach has been their 14 years and been quite successful. Would he have been there as long if he had to go through the same teams your wrestling program does for just a sectional title?

Two of the most highly regarded coaches in the state in Bud Wright and Bill Sharpe coached at small schools their entire career. Would Wright have stayed at Sheridan if the had to go through Westfield, Lawrence North, etc just for a sectional title? Would Sharpe have stayed at Jimtown if the had to go through Penn, Elkhart Memorial, Northwood, etc for a sectional title?

In wrestling you don't see coaches like that stay at small schools for very long.

As far as my situation I would be lying if school size wasn't a factor, I surely wasn't going to go to a smaller school. If we had the same opportunity for success as the other sports we would have had a nice streak of sectional titles, but instead had to go through powerhouses like Columbia City and the start of Carroll's run while there. We were close a couple times, but in the end the depth of the bigger schools did us in.

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When people speak of "greener pastures", are they referring to more kids, more kids from a family supportive background,  more money for the program or a school with a history of success in wrestling?   Is it a combination of these things or something else?

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

We were close a couple times, but in the end the depth of the bigger schools did us in.

This is the biggest difference and factor between successful large schools and small schools. 

We are a school of 375 kids. We have a pretty solid feeder program and are pretty successful for our size at the high school level. 

We have wrestled duals versus Brownsburg, Perry Meridian, Yorktown, Chesterton, Bloomington South, Mishawaka, Bellmont, etc within the last two years. The overwhelming factor is the depth of talent those programs have. 

Depth is my concern every year. 1-2 kids/ injuries can significantly affect our line up. 

I personally love the classed state duals. That event has allowed the smaller programs to show case their kids who otherwise may not get that kind of exposure. And it is a good recruiting tool. 

I also am a fan of the single class individual tourney. I love our state finals event. The only thing missing is wrestlebacks. 

So we need to really sit down and come up with options that would increase participation across all school sizes. I think that should be the underlying goal. 

If participation numbers go up, more programs can develop depth, which in turn will raise the level of wrestling, more kids get noticed by colleges, etc. 

Just my 2 cents. 

Tony Currie 

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9 hours ago, Fabio Jr. said:

You say you cant be sure about that but from my experience I have seen it. When we took over at brownsburg we had hideous numbers for the size of school we were the season after we won team state the first time we had 20 kids come out just to be apart of the program. We  got those kids in the room and now they are solid kids that will have a chance to start their senior year. 

My end goal is to keep the sport growing the only way we get mainstream is if there is a wide appeal. Call it watering down the competition call it whatever you want to. If you argue for the single class system you're beIng selfish. You as a fan want to see it that way nothing wrong with that but it's for your entertaonmet. Get those schools I have never heard of some time to shine and I'll promise you those smaller schools will get better community involvement, more kids will try it, and we will snag a few extra wrestlers. Those wrestlers could grow up to be great officials like Tom Clark. Or open an academy like Coach Red and Coach Parrish. Or make the next competitor to Flo and Track. Maybe I'm being too optimistic but I truly feel it would grow the sport. 

And my selfish comment I dont mean that as a dig. If you want that it's your perogative but I believe it's just to benefit our wants as fans.

Y'all do you i am more than happy to elaborate and have a discussion about my beliefs if you have any questions but I specifically don't wanna argue. I wanna pull the community together not separate it 

 

@Fabio - no offense taken by that, and I also don't want to just argue but to discuss options.

I'd like to take what you experienced and add that to my argument. You went to a LARGE school. The numbers were also down there. You increased participation, not by splitting into a segment so that your kids would be successful, but by using a combination of good coaching, great communication with parents, fantastic self-promotion of of the program and dedicating tons of the coaches time to getting a thriving youth program going. I believe you were also blessed with arriving at a program that already had some national-level wrestlers (BLee and Walton at least) among the teammates.

That formula could work at a small school too, to some extent. And in fact, my guess is that it is happening at some of the more successful small schools. The limiting factor is number of potential wrestlers. Without doing some of these other things, even adding 3 or maybe 7 wrestlers to an already struggling program isn't going to do much. I am proposing that the coaches association try to promote some additional measures that could raise the level of quality across the board. I don't think that is selfish.  The multi-class approach will not guarantee that a 185 pound wrestler is going to have quality practice partners if a team moves from 5 to 12 wrestlers.

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