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raven150

CHANGE IN [PITA] WEIGHT MANAGEMENT!!

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The concept of monitoring the athletes hydration and weight is a great idea for health and safety purposes. 

However there needs to a better way of wrestlers to meet the SCRATCH weight requirement & number of weigh ins. 

It's crazy when there are numerous weigh ins that have been recorded with no real value to the athletes season.

Also lets change the current weight classes using the OLD college weight classes plus 220.

This would eliminate the FORFEIT issue for many teams as well to help colleges better recruit HS kids.

COLLEGE WEIGHTS BEFORE THE ADDED 7 LBS:  118.126.134.141.150.158.167.177.190.220.285

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I'd still like to see 13-14 weight classes for HS.  One option is to go down further than Raven says above.  Something like:

109,117,125,133,141,149,157,165,174,184,197,220,285

Seems to me like going as low as 109 would still allow more teams to fill all of the weights.

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1 hour ago, raven150 said:

The concept of monitoring the athletes hydration and weight is a great idea for health and safety purposes. 

However there needs to a better way of wrestlers to meet the SCRATCH weight requirement & number of weigh ins. 

It's crazy when there are numerous weigh ins that have been recorded with no real value to the athletes season.

Also lets change the current weight classes using the OLD college weight classes plus 220.

This would eliminate the FORFEIT issue for many teams as well to help colleges better recruit HS kids.

COLLEGE WEIGHTS BEFORE THE ADDED 7 LBS:  118.126.134.141.150.158.167.177.190.220.285

Bad idea. I have seen a lot of quality wrestling at 106 & 113 in every region of the state. Can't say that for Hwt and 225, in fact ive observed mostly ms quality wrestling from these groups. We'd rather have David Taylor and Logan Steiber sit so we can watch large unskilled wrestlers push each other towards the out of bounds line for 3 periods?

If anything eliminate 225 for another middleweight.

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1 hour ago, Westforkwhite said:

Bad idea. I have seen a lot of quality wrestling at 106 & 113 in every region of the state. Can't say that for Hwt and 225, in fact ive observed mostly ms quality wrestling from these groups. We'd rather have David Taylor and Logan Steiber sit so we can watch large unskilled wrestlers push each other towards the out of bounds line for 3 periods?

If anything eliminate 225 for another middleweight.

Worse idea eliminating is 220!  Especially considering the 220's we have had the last Six years!  I am not sure what 220's and 285's you have been watching but to say unskilled is being short sided. 

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Joe Lee would pin or TF every 220 not named Mason Parris, and he is 165. I understand Lee is special, but Fattore, Brewer, Mappes, and a number of really good 152-170 would beat all the 220s in the rankings stay for a couple. 

EC semistate has 2 really good Hwts, but beyond that we dont have much, and consistently lack depth at hwt and 220. Getting rid of 220 doesnt make Mason Parris sit, it just makes Hwt a more talented weight class that would be on par with the quality of more competitive weight classes.

Getting rid of 106 and 113 does make kids sit and completely sabotages one of the key recruiting assets of wrestling. Kids that are too small to matter on the bball court or fball field do matter on the wrestling mat.

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Again I am not sure you are thinking things through. The guys you mentioned are really good however beating the likes of Streck, Boots, Hammond, McClaine, Aiken giving up 40 or more

pounds is silly. That is not to mention the quality that was there last year. Larson, Pokorney, Lee, Crider, Maddox.  I wouldn't get rid of 106 or 113 either but every since 220 (215) was

added there has been top notch quality guys. Lets not forget the best Wrestler in the country right now wrestles at 97kg (213lbs) not 125kg. 

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There is quality wrestling at every weight. If you fail to understand or see that you do not understand the sport very well. Heavyweight and 220 are two of the hardest weights to wrestle when you look at the body type and style difference amongst the athletes competing. Look at Robert Samuels and Rickie Clark, and try to prepare to wrestle those two and every other style and body type in between. 

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22 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

There is quality wrestling at every weight. If you fail to understand or see that you do not understand the sport very well. Heavyweight and 220 are two of the hardest weights to wrestle when you look at the body type and style difference amongst the athletes competing. Look at Robert Samuels and Rickie Clark, and try to prepare to wrestle those two and every other style and body type in between. 

I agree with that to an extent, but for every Samuels vs Clark there are 1,000 push and slap fests. There has been some good wrestling in both the upper weights, but the point was made that 220 was more valuable than 106 and 113 to HS wrestling. I was simply pointing out that it wasn't more valuable or more skilled or even more competive than the lower weights that are often derided as MS weights.

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3 hours ago, V and M's Dad said:

Again I am not sure you are thinking things through. The guys you mentioned are really good however beating the likes of Streck, Boots, Hammond, McClaine, Aiken giving up 40 or more

pounds is silly. That is not to mention the quality that was there last year. Larson, Pokorney, Lee, Crider, Maddox.  I wouldn't get rid of 106 or 113 either but every since 220 (215) was

added there has been top notch quality guys. Lets not forget the best Wrestler in the country right now wrestles at 97kg (213lbs) not 125kg. 

If Larson and Pokorney are wrestling 220 in HS this year you have a point, but since neither are, ill stick by my statement.

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1 minute ago, Westforkwhite said:

I agree with that to an extent, but for every Samuels vs Clark there are 1,000 push and slap fests. There has been some good wrestling in both the upper weights, but the point was made that 220 was more valuable than 106 and 113 to HS wrestling. I was simply pointing out that it wasn't more valuable or more skilled or even more competive than the lower weights that are often derided as MS weights.

The amount of moves that you can hit as a big guy is much more limited and the room for error is much smaller for big guys. It is much easier to get off your back when you have a 106lber on you than someone weighing 250lbs. Again the nuances of the sport between each end of the weight spectrum are what make this sport great. It's just like saying the linemen in football are just big fat ogres and we could do away with them.

Our weight classes are what make this sport so great, eliminating them at either end is a bad idea.

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10 minutes ago, Westforkwhite said:

If Larson and Pokorney are wrestling 220 in HS this year you have a point, but since neither are, ill stick by my statement.

Davison beat Streck this year 8-1 but you have him getting teched or pinned by a 165 pound guy.   Stick by it if you want it is just simply inaccurate.  

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17 minutes ago, V and M's Dad said:

Davison beat Streck this year 8-1 but you have him getting teched or pinned by a 165 pound guy.   Stick by it if you want it is just simply inaccurate.  

You bringing up Snyder only feeds my point. He is 215 as you point out (like Samuels ) and he wrestles Hwt. Without Snyder and some of the smaller guys who would more naturally fall at 220 the Hwt division in the NCAA would pretty shallow. 

Davison is no joke so your point there has some validity. I still think Lee could pin him but it's possible he's held to majors in some of the matches with the right amount of stalling.

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42 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

The amount of moves that you can hit as a big guy is much more limited and the room for error is much smaller for big guys. It is much easier to get off your back when you have a 106lber on you than someone weighing 250lbs. Again the nuances of the sport between each end of the weight spectrum are what make this sport great. It's just like saying the linemen in football are just big fat ogres and we could do away with them.

Our weight classes are what make this sport so great, eliminating them at either end is a bad idea.

I can see your last point, but still prefer the last weights (MI uses).

I disagree that it should be more difficult to get your own body weight off of you unless you are conceding upper weights are less strong relative to their body weight. A 106 might only be able to bench press 110 but a 220 should put up 240, (given other equal strength ratios) thus giving him equal ability to get off his back. When we see this doesn't play out is typically when the strength doesnt match.

Lineman have an entirely different function on the football field, than say skill players. Hwts have the same fuction 106 pounders do so the analogy doesn't quite fit. If you took a quality 106 or 160 with the skills they have and gave them the size to be Hwts they would have disproportionate success compared to what they experienced in their old weight classes. If you reversed the experiment only the ultra elite hwts would be successful at the mid or low weights.

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27 minutes ago, Westforkwhite said:

I can see your last point, but still prefer the last weights (MI uses).

I disagree that it should be more difficult to get your own body weight off of you unless you are conceding upper weights are less strong relative to their body weight. A 106 might only be able to bench press 110 but a 220 should put up 240, (given other equal strength ratios) thus giving him equal ability to get off his back. When we see this doesn't play out is typically when the strength doesnt match.

Lineman have an entirely different function on the football field, than say skill players. Hwts have the same fuction 106 pounders do so the analogy doesn't quite fit. If you took a quality 106 or 160 with the skills they have and gave them the size to be Hwts they would have disproportionate success compared to what they experienced in their old weight classes. If you reversed the experiment only the ultra elite hwts would be successful at the mid or low weights.

Well I see both sides of this debate. Their are obviously some Pros and Cons of both. I don't think that if you eliminate the 106 pound weight class then it would be hurting the sport tremendously. Not only because of all the excitement that the smaller guys have given us consistently over the years(everyone wants to be in their seats before it starts, instead of leaving when it starts like they do the big guys) but like someone mentioned earlier about kids too small to play basketball or Football can be a wrestling superstar at 106 even if they only weight around 100 pounds.but if you take 106 out and make it 113 or above then that 100 pounder probably wouldn't even make varsity and if they did would be very undersized and would not be very successful in most cases. I believe that maybe instead of eliminating 220 then maybe make it something like 195(or even 200),then have one anywhere from 230-240 and then make the big guys like it used to be I believe where their is no max at Heavyweight.this would maybe bring the big football lineman out that has his future set on playing College football and wants to get in better shape and work on his footwork but does not want to lose much weight because it's better to be as big and as strong as possible when you are a lineman. I really won't be upset at all if these weights stay the exact same. This is the best sport in the world and although Most would like to see wrestlebacks at semi state, other then that I believe we are very fortunate to be able to witness one of the most exciting State Tournaments in the entire world. 

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How about considering what gets the most kids to participate in the sport?  I would think eliminating weight classes would ultimately result in less participation - like a 95 lb freshman not seeing a good path to getting to compete if the first class is 113.  If we want the sport to become more than it is today, we need more people to at least try the sport.  This gets more family and friends actually seeing a high school or middle school match and increases your chance of recruiting / getting more kids to try it.  It may not even be this generation that pays off.  I am taking a long term approach.  I figure if I get some kid to even wrestle a year or two in middle school, their kids will be much more likely to try it.  Every father or uncle who wrestled in middle school was a state champion according to their kids.

Edited by doctorWrestling

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13 hours ago, V and M's Dad said:

Again I am not sure you are thinking things through. The guys you mentioned are really good however beating the likes of Streck, Boots, Hammond, McClaine, Aiken giving up 40 or more

pounds is silly. That is not to mention the quality that was there last year. Larson, Pokorney, Lee, Crider, Maddox.  I wouldn't get rid of 106 or 113 either but every since 220 (215) was

added there has been top notch quality guys. Lets not forget the best Wrestler in the country world right now wrestles at 97kg (213lbs) not 125kg. 

FIFY

 

17 hours ago, raven150 said:

The concept of monitoring the athletes hydration and weight is a great idea for health and safety purposes. 

However there needs to a better way of wrestlers to meet the SCRATCH weight requirement & number of weigh ins. 

It's crazy when there are numerous weigh ins that have been recorded with no real value to the athletes season.

Also lets change the current weight classes using the OLD college weight classes plus 220.

This would eliminate the FORFEIT issue for many teams as well to help colleges better recruit HS kids.

COLLEGE WEIGHTS BEFORE THE ADDED 7 LBS:  118.126.134.141.150.158.167.177.190.220.285

Nothing better than eliminating weight classes and taking opportunity away from kids just because your team can't fill a line up. 

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16 minutes ago, gogoplata89 said:

FIFY

 

Nothing better than eliminating weight classes and taking opportunity away from kids just because your team can't fill a line up. 

Exactly.  These are the new weight classes our ms conference approved last week.  A 20 lb jump from 175 to 195? Just completely jumped over an entire weight class.

75, 80, 85, 90, 95, 102,110,117,125, 132, 140,150, 160, 175, 195, 220, 285

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forfeits are spread across the board, elimating them doesn't help - create need!  Meaning, when you need 14, you push to get 14 or more and sometimes fall short.  Eliminate to 12 weights, then you push to get 12 or more kids.  The need draws kids, even if we fall short.  Telling people we will settle for less kids could be taking a step back.  The less weight classes there are, the less there will be a need for kids for wrestling.

 

on 106 - its not always the quality of wrestling (which i don't think there is a lack of), or even how many 106 there are,  it can be about how light some of the kids get below 106.  I have had years where both my 106 are below 90lbs, this year 98lbs.  Was at a tourney once where all 106 were below 100.  doesn't matter how many of them there are, its saftey for them.  Keeping a weight for these kids is a must.  

 

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46 minutes ago, dstruck said:

forfeits are spread across the board, elimating them doesn't help - create need!  Meaning, when you need 14, you push to get 14 or more and sometimes fall short.  Eliminate to 12 weights, then you push to get 12 or more kids.  The need draws kids, even if we fall short.  Telling people we will settle for less kids could be taking a step back.  The less weight classes there are, the less there will be a need for kids for wrestling.

While I don't technically disagree, playing devil's advocate, should there be more than 14 weight classes? Should college have more weight classes too?

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7 hours ago, doctorWrestling said:

  I would think eliminating weight classes would ultimately result in less participation - like a 95 lb freshman not seeing a good path to getting to compete if the first class is 113. 

I know this is just an example but in what other sport are we encouraging a 95 lb freshman to be a varsity athlete?

I don't think eliminating weight classes is the right answer but I would like to see bigger weight classes for Varsity and smaller for freshman and JV.  Example...

 

Freshman (current wt classes - 7 lbs) - 99, 106, 113, 119, 125, 131, 138, 145, 153, 163, 175, 188, 213, 277

JV (current wt classes) 106, 113, 120, 126, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 182, 195, 220, 285

Varsity (current wt classes +7 lbs) - 113, 120, 127, 132, 139, 145, 152, 159, 167, 177, 189, 202, 227, 292

This would potentially promote healthy weight gain as kids get older.  

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